Pakistani Fighter
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10km max range it has?AR-10 missile. It's a heavy missile not meant for foot soldier but to be equipped for Helo, armour car or ATGM killer vehicle.
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10km max range it has?AR-10 missile. It's a heavy missile not meant for foot soldier but to be equipped for Helo, armour car or ATGM killer vehicle.
You can say it about Helicopter technology... You can say it for warships, You can say it about ASELPOD... but still Pakistan wants to have every one of them...There is no Turkish engine. Boasting about US engines isn't really relevant here. One has to be less nationalistic and more pragmatic and realistic.
If China and Russia are 20 years behind, Turkey is 40 years behind in engine technology. China today has the world's best titanium 3d printers, at a class superior to even the US.
Pakistan is well aware of Chinese and Turkish deficiencies. Now if you let the jingoism go and just look at Pak procurement, it has by far bought Chinese equipment far more than anything remotely Turkish.
One can see the clear deficiency in Turkish engineering with the A-129. Just trying to make some minor improvements on this has lead Turkey to create and out of balance product that needs dead weight at the back.
It is easy to make big speeches and boasts but reality is different.
Access to western technology is one thing , muster the metallurgy is another thing. The west will never tell u how the process or complicated technology behind in making a turbine blade that can withstand 2000 degrees temp while having lifespan of 10000hrs.As I see it and IMHO, Chinese technology for the most part is a derivative or improvement over first Russian and then European technologies or on access, through various ways and means, to US technology.
Access to Russian tech has been for most part, available except for a period between late fifties till late seventies. Access to critical European technologies were easily available to China till the late eighties. Access to some US technologies were gained through commercial or co production contracts, intellectual exchanges of information through Chinese diaspora living abroad in US and some industrial espionage and other means.
Since the late eighties, this access has started to dry up for the Chinese when the realization in both Europe and US that China is not just a new market opportunity but also real competitor. Exchange of personnel went down, student visas became limited or allowed for study in non-restricted fields and technologies.
China built a lot of its technological base on the skill set imported by skilled expat coming back to work for the mother country after getting higher education in US and or working there in organization of strategic nature (India is doing the same since mid nineties).
On the other hand, Turkey has had access to both European and US critical technologies that are not open to Chinese at this point in time, till very recently.
Turks have done the same, take the technology and establish in country production lines but with a basic difference, as compared to China, the production & improvement of the product was done in conjunction with Original Equipment Manufacturer! And in some cases the improvement done by the Turks was shared with the OEM and royalties were shared. Do remember we did that with Exocest missile and its air launched version.
In other cases, Turkey bought the intellectual rights (being a NATO member) of the basic product line. This gave them a huge boost, and their learning curve was greatly reduced.
Turkish companies also participated as JV partners in joint development programs. While China was an outsourced component manufacturers for subassemblies for example of commercial aircraft parts.
Participation in multinational exercises, joint training, exchange programs, cross training of individuals of armed forces personnel also boosted the exposure to new emerging methods and technologies. This all helped build up the knowledge base of the Turks as compared to those of the Chinese.
Therefore, in light of the above, I for one feel that Turks have more up to date access to western technologies as compared to the Chinese.
Having said that, it does not mean that the Chinese Technology is obsolete or inferior, it just means that the Chinese product will require a lot more iterations to come up to our standards as compared to say that of the Turks which in theory would require lot less iterations.
However, my suggestion would be to be part of both programs (After all we were going for two different programs to equip our aviation units) and use the two different programs to our advantage.
Fixed wing CAS is good but its not an alternative for attack helos flying / hovering at the flanks of an armoured formation at tree top level. Attack helo has become a necessity in the maneuver of armoured formations. CAS is also precious but not an alternative for helicopters.I think when one looks at the combat record of fixed wing CAS vs attack helicopters, it is clear that this strange obsession with $ 20 million to $50 million attack helicopers is highly unhealthy and harmful for Pakistan.
The combat record clearly shows that fixed wing CAS has consistently been cheaper and outperformed attack helicopters. It's just a shame.
Metallurgy is a VERY CLOSELY GUARDED SECRET in the world. I do not know how much of these secrets USA has shared with our Turk brothers. China has made a VERY SERIOUS and determined effort with lot of effort and money to learn the INNER SECRETS of metallurgy. i sincerely pray we get out of western blackmail and there control on sensitive industry.Access to western technology is one thing , muster the metallurgy is another thing. The west will never tell u how the process or complicated technology behind in making a turbine blade that can withstand 2000 degrees temp while having lifespan of 10000hrs.
For example, do turkey even have heavy hydraulic presser for aviation or heavy industries process?
If China and Russia are 20 years behind, Turkey is 40 years behind in engine technology. China today has the world's best titanium 3d printers, at a class superior to even the US.
Inflated Prices= Chinese manufacturers have been ripping off Pakistani Armed Forces day in and day out. The Manufacturers deal with Pakistan as a commercial market with zero subsidy or flexibly. Heck Harbin even raised the Price of Z-9s for a new batch that the Navy was considering quoting it close to what otherwise in the market we can get from a Reputed European manufacturer. The only advantage is political security and the manufacturers ability to deliver.I know you prefer localization and joint development to just purchasing equipment - it's what I advocated for China as well when it was coming up, so I would be a hypocrite if I thought less of others for doing it. Having said that the risks of buying from China are far lower than buying from the West: no inflated prices, no political strings, no hassles.
Absent your preferred option, in terms of performance, reliability, and political security the Z-10ME is the best choice.
Pakistan is well aware of Chinese and Turkish deficiencies. Now if you let the jingoism go and just look at Pak procurement, it has by far bought Chinese equipment far more than anything remotely Turkish.
Are you comparing China with the whole west?Pakistan is unfortunately driven into the arms of China cause of Western arrogancy and geopolitic matters with India so The procurements were mostly done by considering the factors/sanctions Pakistan faces. China systematically benefits from this situation to get more deal from Pakistan. Even in this situation, Pakistan is seeking ways to diversify the procurements not to solely rely on cheap and inferior Chinese products. In this aspect, Instead of counting the number of Chinese equipments bought by Pakistan with mostly politic reasons, I advice you to check the number of failures Chinese products met when they joined into a fair competition with Western equivalents. This will give you more clue to understand the reality instead of spreading assumptions based on nothing. Their Kovit-19 test kits were even sent back to China by many European countries. They need more time to get mature instead of bragging with superiority dreams in forum pages.
Are you comparing China with the whole west?
Very much appreciate
I don't see where China has ever ripped off Pakistan. I see Turkey ripping off Pakistan by fraudulently claiming it can supply an attack helicopter and then leaving Pakistan high and dry.Inflated Prices= Chinese manufacturers have been ripping off Pakistani Armed Forces day in and day out.
Your analysis ignores a crucial factor: indigenous advancement and innovation. The access China had to foreign technology was used as a base on which to develop its own indigenous technology. Decades later China reached parity with certain Western technologies - among them turboshaft engines. There's still more work to be done to close the gap in other technologies like the most advanced generation of turbofans, but I'm confident that will be accomplished in the years to come.Having said that, it does not mean that the Chinese Technology is obsolete or inferior, it just means that the Chinese product will require a lot more iterations to come up to our standards as compared to say that of the Turks which in theory would require lot less iterations.
I wouldn't bother with him. He's just a parrot with no understanding of how far China has advanced, all he has is his "cheap Chinese" insults which he parrots from Europeans. It brings to mind a joke: How many Turks does it take to change a lightbulb? Just one, as long as there's a European beside him to show him how to do it.Are you comparing China with the whole west?
Very much appreciate
I never claimed Chinese engines are superior to Western ones, I said Chinese turboshafts have reached parity with Western ones. That you don't understand English isn't my problem. Do what you people always do and go ask a European to explain what I wrote to you.Ask it to your compatriots who claims Chinese engine tech is superior to West.
No disrespect intended but I myself consider it a very childish behavior to compare the dynamics of two very different nation-states based merely upon the capability of their defense products. For Pakistan, China and Turkey cannot be replaced, in some departments China is better and in some Turkey is better.
Who? And how?Ask this to your compatriots who claim Chinese engine tech is superior to West.