New Modified Z-10ME Attack Helicopter

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Sir, in your opinion if the Turkish helo doesn't materialize, then what options do we have?

The right solution is to co-develop and co-produce one with Turkey (e.g., the 6-ton ATAK with TS1400), and then induct that in large numbers through incremental orders over 10-15 years. Unfortunately, because the Army didn't (or couldn't) take attack helicopter development seriously (I was on PakDef arguing for this in 2009, by the way), it has holed itself into a corner where it needs something ASAP. There's only one option, China.

 

[Blacklight]

The right solution is to co-develop and co-produce one with Turkey (e.g., the 6-ton ATAK with TS1400), and then induct that in large numbers through incremental orders over 10-15 years. Unfortunately, because the Army didn't (or couldn't) take attack helicopter development seriously (I was on PakDef arguing for this in 2009, by the way), it has holed itself into a corner where it needs something ASAP. There's only one option, China.

Well it seems Z10 is going to be a reality soon.

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

I am sure that it is tiring you to talk about the economy frequently in my articles, but the jv of such systems, like the message I wrote a year ago, reach exactly billion dollars. until such time that ceiling point the trade volume between Pakistan and Turkey $ 1 billion. In ready-made purchases, European or Turkish banks can give credit, but jv and R&D cannot work with credit. In this forum, I think we are very optimistic about sometimes overlooking love and coming to each other.

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

There's only one option, China.

I know you prefer localization and joint development to just purchasing equipment - it's what I advocated for China as well when it was coming up, so I would be a hypocrite if I thought less of others for doing it. Having said that the risks of buying from China are far lower than buying from the West: no inflated prices, no political strings, no hassles.

Absent your preferred option, in terms of performance, reliability, and political security the Z-10ME is the best choice.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I know you prefer localization and joint development to just purchasing equipment - it's what I advocated for China as well when it was coming up, so I would be a hypocrite if I thought less of others for doing it. Having said that the risks of buying from China are far lower than buying from the West: no inflated prices, no political strings, no hassles.

Absent your preferred option, in terms of performance, reliability, and political security the Z-10ME is the best choice.

If the direction is China, I'd rather buying it off-the-shelf completely. I think the economies-of-scale in China is so deep, the cost of support, attrition replacements, etc is likely very low. Just go for big numbers of Z-10ME.

 

[Armchair]

The power to weight ratio of T-129 with CTS-400 (1350 shp) is unrivalled by any Chinese program..

There is no Turkish engine. Boasting about US engines isn't really relevant here. One has to be less nationalistic and more pragmatic and realistic.

If China and Russia are 20 years behind, Turkey is 40 years behind in engine technology. China today has the world's best titanium 3d printers, at a class superior to even the US.

Pakistan is well aware of Chinese and Turkish deficiencies. Now if you let the jingoism go and just look at Pak procurement, it has by far bought Chinese equipment far more than anything remotely Turkish.

One can see the clear deficiency in Turkish engineering with the A-129. Just trying to make some minor improvements on this has lead Turkey to create and out of balance product that needs dead weight at the back.

It is easy to make big speeches and boasts but reality is different.

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

There is no Turkish engine. Boasting about US engines isn't really relevant here. One has to be less nationalistic and more pragmatic and realistic.

If China and Russia are 20 years behind, Turkey is 40 years behind in engine technology. China today has the world's best titanium 3d printers, at a class superior to even the US.

Pakistan is well aware of Chinese and Turkish deficiencies. Now if you let the jingoism go and just look at Pak procurement, it has by far bought Chinese equipment far more than anything remotely Turkish.

One can see the clear deficiency in Turkish engineering with the A-129. Just trying to make some minor improvements on this has lead Turkey to create and out of balance product that needs dead weight at the back.

It is easy to make big speeches and boasts but reality is different.

Tei today supplies 1 out of every 3 planes in the world and is ranked 5th in the world in terms of engine supply. He spent his talents with the USA on TS1400, which he developed to manufacture GE T700 Engines under license. No product of china is the equivalent of USA, so the decision of Pakistani, Turkish, Chinese or another country citizen cannot make a decision, as you said, the facts work differently. That's why the T629 is being developed, first of all, these products do their job no matter how short they are. In addition, all the changes and projects are made at the request of the "Turkish Armed Forces", TS1400 or any helicopter or any change is not for Pakistan.
This is just a tender and a deal, this is a pakistan forum, so it is funny to have the impression that the T129 program is revolving around Pakistan.

 

[Beast]

Tei today supplies 1 out of every 3 planes in the world and is ranked 5th in the world in terms of engine supply. He spent his talents with the USA on TS1400, which he developed to manufacture GE T700 Engines under license. No product of china is the equivalent of us, so the decision of Pakistani, Turkish, Chinese or another country citizen cannot make a decision, as you said, the facts work differently. That's why the T629 is being developed, first of all, these products do their job no matter how short they are. In addition, all the changes and projects are made at the request of the "Turkish Armed Forces", TS1400 or any helicopter or any change is not for Pakistan.
This is just a tender and a deal, this is a pakistan forum, so it is funny to have the impression that the T129 program is revolving around Pakistan.

https://www.janes.com/article/91881/more-details-emerge-about-china-s-z-20-helicopter

The problem of Chinese problem is just overblown. There are many other projects completed without the issue of lacking of suitable engines and meeting the spec of working on high attitude. Best of all , we are working independently without much assist.

 

[princefaisal]

If the engine issue of T129 further lingers, then it would be better to amend the contract with TAI and replace it with their 6-ton T629 attack helicopters. This will further increase the delivery time period of Helicopters from TAI, but will come without any hindrances. Meanwhile modified Z-10ME helicopters should be inducted for the time being to provide support to the existing old Cobra helicopters.

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

https://www.janes.com/article/91881/more-details-emerge-about-china-s-z-20-helicopter

The problem of Chinese problem is just overblown. There are many other projects completed without the issue of lacking of suitable engines and meeting the spec of working on high attitude. Best of all , we are working independently without much assist.

I'm not talking about anyone's work, if you can't do anything now, you can do it in the future, this information is not descended from the sky. They are angry because T129 was chosen in the project, but there is a situation they cannot understand, if a force wants a light class helicopter instead of a heavy class, it requires high altitude with its maneuverability because it has a mountainous country.

 

[nomi007]

If the direction is China, I'd rather buying it off-the-shelf completely. I think the economies-of-scale in China is so deep, the cost of support, attrition replacements, etc is likely very low. Just go for big numbers of Z-10ME.

why not we go for European engine for T-129

 

[Beast]

I'm not talking about anyone's work, if you can't do anything now, you can do it in the future, this information is not descended from the sky. They are angry because T129 was chosen in the project, but there is a situation they cannot understand, if a force wants a light class helicopter instead of a heavy class, it requires high altitude with its maneuverability because it has a mountainous country.

Light Helo is due to constrait and lack of choices. A lightly armour protected Helo run risk of heavy losses to small arms.
Z-10ME is back for the contention. PA is retesting it as it fitted with more powerful engine to fit higher attitude mission.

https://thediplomat.com/2020/02/pakistan-reconsiders-chinese-z-10-attack-helicopters/

https://www.safran-helicopter-engin...loped-aero-engine-be-certified-china-20191010

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Turkish gov't that paid its companies (TAI and Aselsan) to manufacture the Pak Army T129s.

Are they being manufactured?

Light Helo is due to constrait and lack of choices. A lightly armour protected Helo run risk of heavy losses to small arms.
Z-10ME is back for the contention. PA is retesting it as it fitted with more powerful engine to fit higher attitude mission.

https://thediplomat.com/2020/02/pakistan-reconsiders-chinese-z-10-attack-helicopters/

https://www.safran-helicopter-engin...loped-aero-engine-be-certified-china-20191010

What ATGM Z10 ME carries?

 

[Beast]

What ATGM Z10 ME carries?

AR-10 missile. It's a heavy missile not meant for foot soldier but to be equipped for Helo, armour car or ATGM killer vehicle.

 

[Turan09]

why not we go for European engine for T-129

Well... I believe it won't be cost effective to integrate a new european engine to T129 only for 30 helos... This is an attack helicopter not an armoured vehicle...