Never ask me about peace again

[al-Hasani]

exactly that, to me, pics of an Israeli soldier's family in mourning are just as tragic as pics of a hamas fighter's kids crying at his funeral.. is just as tragic as some random civvie family caught in the middle of this BS

statistic my ***, the death of one man is a just as big a tragedy as the death of a million.

overall, Israel have lost the propaganda war, Palestinians have lost too many of their own.. I just hope this round stops soon

There is a world apart from soldiers dying in a battle and then innocent civilians, mostly children and women doing the same. Death is death yet very few people fail to make such an distinction.

Why not call a spade for a spade?

 

[Dillinger]

@Hazzy997 @al-Hasani @Hyperion @Chak Bamu

The political dispensation in Israel has pretty much admitted that the notion of a prospective sovereign Palestinian state, in itself, is considered to be a threat to Israel, perhaps even an existential one.

This of course proceeds from the logic that any sovereign state west of the river Jordan with internationally recognized borders and proper armed forces could very well become a launch point for extremists and terrorists who will not stop attacking Israel even if a settlement is reached.

Furthermore, that such a state, in its nascent and then formative years would be open to external control and manipulation from other states which may not be too benign in their view of Israel.

All well and good.

So, it behooves the Israeli leaders to ensure that the status of the West Bank and Gaza remains amorphous, with no legally enforceable borders and no real capital in the international world. So far so good, Israeli interests are still going strong.

Now comes the problem, let us say baby Ibrahim grows up and decides to vent his soul crushing pain, straps on a suicide vest and enters say an Israeli settlement somehow, now we've got a problem. Lets say by some dint of fortune or chance you could catch the young man that is Ibrahim right before he lets go of the switch, how in nine hells will you convince him that what he is doing is evil? Will a child born of such conflict ruminate upon the sanctity of life, on the notion of and distinction between civilians and combatants? Such an act would still be, and I mean unequivocally, deplorable. But how would you make Ibrahim see that if you were an Israeli?

 

[Hyperion]

You couldn't. No one could.

@Hazzy997 @al-Hasani @Hyperion @Chak Bamu

The political dispensation in Israel has pretty much admitted that the notion of a prospective sovereign Palestinian state, in itself, is considered to be a threat to Israel, perhaps even an existential one.

This of course proceeds from the logic that any sovereign state west of the river Jordan with internationally recognized borders and proper armed forces could very well become a launch point for extremists and terrorists who will not stop attacking Israel even if a settlement is reached.

Furthermore, that such a state, in its nascent and then formative years would be open to external control and manipulation from other states which may not be too benign in their view of Israel.

All well and good.

So, it behooves the Israeli leaders to ensure that the status of the West Bank and Gaza remains amorphous, with no legally enforceable borders and no real capital in the international world. So far so good, Israeli interests are still going strong.

Now comes the problem, let us say baby Ibrahim grows up and decides to vent his soul crushing pain, straps on a suicide vest and enters say an Israeli settlement somehow, now we've got a problem. Lets say by some dint of fortune or chance you could catch the young man that is Ibrahim right before he lets go of the switch, how in nine hells will you convince him that what he is doing is evil? Will a child born of such conflict ruminate upon the sanctity of life, on the notion of and distinction between civilians and combatants? Such an act would still be, and I mean unequivocally, deplorable. But how would you make Ibrahim see that if you were an Israeli?

 

[janon]

Also, excuse my language, but screw every individual that backs Israel knowing fully well that 80% of the casualties are civilians. Especially some of the Indian and "Western" cheerleaders on PDF.

When the assault started, I was sympathetic to Israel, because no country should face rocket attacks from groups like Hamas. But as it has dragged on and on, and civilian casualties keep mounting, I feel forced to question Israel's behavior as well as intentions. Initially I was under the impression that the air strikes were only at Hamas targets and rocket launch pads, and that civilian casualties happened only because of Gaza being such a crowded place, and Hamas firing from civilian places and storing weapons in schools and mosques. However, I only excused Israel's air campaign because I thought that it would be quick, intended to force Hamas to come to the negotiating table, or followed by ground forces moving in to capture Hamas leaders and rocket launchers.

But as it turns out, Israel is going on doing air strikes which have already killed a 1000+ civilians who had nothing to do with Hamas, and yet Israel remains unapologetic. I cannot understand what they are trying to accomplish by this aerial campaign, unless they simultaneously sent in ground forces. All they are doing is creating thousands of sworn enemies - everybody who lost a child, every child who lost their parent, will hate Israel to the core, and quite possibly join anti Israel forces in future. And they would be morally fully justified in doing so.

I have to say at this point, that Israel is behaving stupidly as well as criminally. Their initial statement of intentions simply do not match with what their F-16s are doing. Preventing rocket attacks? Destroying tunnel networks? How is any of that achieved by repeatedly pounding homes and universities?

Hamas, all said and done, is a very lightly armed force of foot soldiers, with no armour or artillery or heavy weaponry. They would be no match for the IDF if they faught face to face. If Israel's intention really was self defence, then they should hae sent in their ground forces, killed or captured combatants, destroyed the tunnels and rockets on the ground, and used airpower only for close air support of their ground troops. Instead, they are pretending to achieve those objectives from the air alone.

What exactly is Israel's objective as of now? What are they trying to do? Do they even have a clearly defined objective anymore? @500 @Archdemon @Adir-mz

 

[gau8av]

There is a world apart from soldiers dying in a battle and then innocent civilians, mostly children and women doing the same. Death is death yet very few people fail to make such an distinction.

Why not call a spade for a spade?

death affects those who are left behind more than those who die themselves.. you trying to tell me the grief of a Hamas fighter's mother is any more or less than what is felt by an Israeli soldier's family or indeed the family of some innocent civilians caught in the cross fire ?

war is ugly

 

[al-Hasani]

@Hazzy997 @al-Hasani @Hyperion @Chak Bamu

The political dispensation in Israel has pretty much admitted that the notion of a prospective sovereign Palestinian state, in itself, is considered to be a threat to Israel, perhaps even an existential one.

This of course proceeds from the logic that any sovereign state west of the river Jordan with internationally recognized borders and proper armed forces could very well become a launch point for extremists and terrorists who will not stop attacking Israel even if a settlement is reached.

Furthermore, that such a state, in its nascent and then formative years would be open to external control and manipulation from other states which may not be too benign in their view of Israel.

All well and good.

So, it behooves the Israeli leaders to ensure that the status of the West Bank and Gaza remains amorphous, with no legally enforceable borders and no real capital in the international world. So far so good, Israeli interests are still going strong.

Now comes the problem, let us say baby Ibrahim grows up and decides to vent his soul crushing pain, straps on a suicide vest and enters say an Israeli settlement somehow, now we've got a problem. Lets say by some dint of fortune or chance you could catch the young man that is Ibrahim right before he lets go of the switch, how in nine hells will you convince him that what he is doing is evil? Will a child born of such conflict ruminate upon the sanctity of life, on the notion of and distinction between civilians and combatants? Such an act would still be, and I mean unequivocally, deplorable. But how would you make Ibrahim see that if you were an Israeli?

You see those kind of situations are some of the reasons to why the problems in the Muslim world exist and why certain people are reflections of such an environment. Foreigners cannot understand it yet everyone else would be no different had they been in this situation. History proves this at least.

It's unfortunate that the much stronger and so-called "sane" party here is doing nothing else than fulling the flames for further conflict. A more violent conflict in fact.

@janon

It's admirable that you have changed opinions based on the ground realities and not just been blinded by hatred against Muslims. Before anything else we are all humans and religion should be secondary here.

 

[Hyperion]

Agreed. Same sentiments here!

When the assault started, I was sympathetic to Israel, because no country should face rocket attacks from groups like Hamas. But as it has dragged on and on, and civilian casualties keep mounting, I feel forced to question Israel's behavior as well as intentions. Initially I was under the impression that the air strikes were only at Hamas targets and rocket launch pads, and that civilian casualties happened only because of Gaza being such a crowded place, and Hamas firing from civilian places and storing weapons in schools and mosques. However, I only excused Israel's air campaign because I thought that it would be quick, intended to force Hamas to come to the negotiating table, or followed by ground forces moving in to capture Hamas leaders and rocket launchers.

But as it turns out, Israel is going on doing air strikes which have already killed a 1000+ civilians who had nothing to do with Hamas, and yet Israel remains unapologetic. I cannot understand what they are trying to accomplish by this aerial campaign, unless they simultaneously sent in ground forces. All they are doing is creating thousands of sworn enemies - everybody who lost a child, every child who lost their parent, will hate Israel to the core, and quite possibly join anti Israel forces in future. And they would be morally fully justified in doing so.

I have to say at this point, that Israel is behaving stupidly as well as criminally. Their initial statement of intentions simply do not match with what their F-16s are doing. Preventing rocket attacks? Destroying tunnel networks? How is any of that achieved by repeatedly pounding homes and universities?

Hamas, all said and done, is a very lightly armed force of foot soldiers, with no armour or artillery or heavy weaponry. They would be no match for the IDF if they faught face to face. If Israel's intention really was self defence, then they should hae sent in their ground forces, killed or captured combatants, destroyed the tunnels and rockets on the ground, and used airpower only for close air support of their ground troops. Instead, they are pretending to achieve those objectives from the air alone.

What exactly is Israel's objective as of now? What are they trying to do? Do they even have a clearly defined objective anymore? @500 @Archdemon @Adir-mz

 

[al-Hasani]

death affects those who are left behind more than those who die themselves.. you trying to tell me the grief of a Hamas fighter's mother is any more or less than what is felt by an Israeli soldier's family or indeed the family of some innocent civilians caught in the cross fire ?

war is ugly

We are not talking about grieve here but VICTIMS. You should be able to make such a distinction. All mother's regardless of whether their sons are called Hitler or Mao Zedong will mourn their deaths.

If you can't make a distinction between the death of soldiers and that of innocent civilians, mostly children and women, then I cannot help you mate.

 

[gau8av]

We are not talking about grieve here but VICTIMS. You should be able to make such a distinction. All mother's regardless of whether their sons are called Hitler or Mao Zedong will mourn their death.

If you can't make a distinction between the death of soldiers or innocent civilians, mostly children and women then I cannot help you.

what I'm trying to say is.. end of the day, 10 dead kids here vs 1 dead soldier there is equally bad for those left behind

but of course, Israel have lost the information/propaganda war badly here

 

[Dillinger]

Agreed. Same sentiments here!

More importantly, it makes no strategic OR tactical sense.

I for the life me cannot figure out exactly what they are targeting? So we are civvies and may not grasp warfare, but seriously what are they targeting? How is it that they need such heavy indirect fire support, this is not aircraft operating in CAS, its not even "surgical strikes" at the moment?

When the assault started, I was sympathetic to Israel, because no country should face rocket attacks from groups like Hamas. But as it has dragged on and on, and civilian casualties keep mounting, I feel forced to question Israel's behavior as well as intentions. Initially I was under the impression that the air strikes were only at Hamas targets and rocket launch pads, and that civilian casualties happened only because of Gaza being such a crowded place, and Hamas firing from civilian places and storing weapons in schools and mosques. However, I only excused Israel's air campaign because I thought that it would be quick, intended to force Hamas to come to the negotiating table, or followed by ground forces moving in to capture Hamas leaders and rocket launchers.

But as it turns out, Israel is going on doing air strikes which have already killed a 1000+ civilians who had nothing to do with Hamas, and yet Israel remains unapologetic. I cannot understand what they are trying to accomplish by this aerial campaign, unless they simultaneously sent in ground forces. All they are doing is creating thousands of sworn enemies - everybody who lost a child, every child who lost their parent, will hate Israel to the core, and quite possibly join anti Israel forces in future. And they would be morally fully justified in doing so.

I have to say at this point, that Israel is behaving stupidly as well as criminally. Their initial statement of intentions simply do not match with what their F-16s are doing. Preventing rocket attacks? Destroying tunnel networks? How is any of that achieved by repeatedly pounding homes and universities?

Hamas, all said and done, is a very lightly armed force of foot soldiers, with no armour or artillery or heavy weaponry. They would be no match for the IDF if they faught face to face. If Israel's intention really was self defence, then they should hae sent in their ground forces, killed or captured combatants, destroyed the tunnels and rockets on the ground, and used airpower only for close air support of their ground troops. Instead, they are pretending to achieve those objectives from the air alone.

What exactly is Israel's objective as of now? What are they trying to do? Do they even have a clearly defined objective anymore? @500 @Archdemon @Adir-mz

A month, without respite, with no method to the madness which is apparent.

At this point its akin to taking shots in the dark and hoping that you've hit a target.

 

[al-Hasani]

what I'm trying to say is.. end of the day, 10 dead kids here vs 1 dead soldier there is equally bad for those left behind

but of course, Israel have lost the information/propaganda war badly here

Mate, nobody disputes that. I even said that the only thing I can feel sorry about regarding Israeli casualties are civilians and the relatives of dead IDF soldiers.

But it's not about any propaganda war. What kind of propaganda do the Palestinian need to make in order to appear as David compared to Goliath?

How is the obvious difference between killed soldiers in service (small amount too) comparable to over 1500 perished civilians, mostly women and children? I simply cannot understand this.

 

[Hyperion]

I think it's just plain random targeting............. just shoot at anything that moves............ after watching all this, I have come to a conclusion.......... Israeli's have become their own worst nightmare.............. they should definitely stop with Anti-Semitism and Auschwitz punchlines........... it's Gaza Concentration Camp from today...............

In my books, from now onwards, they are just plain pussies............ imagine, not even one boot on the ground in Gaza and all this random targeting............ how low can a nation sink............ I know............ as low as Israel!

More importantly, it makes no strategic OR tactical sense.

I for the life me cannot figure out exactly what they are targeting? So we are civvies and may not grasp warfare, but seriously what are they targeting? How is it that they need such heavy indirect fire support, this is not aircraft operating in CAS, its not even "surgical strikes" at the moment?

 

[Dillinger]

I think it's just plain random targeting............. just shoot at anything that moves............ after watching all this, I have come to a conclusion.......... Israeli's have become their own worst nightmare.............. they should definitely stop with Anti-Semitism and Auschwitz punchlines........... it's Gaza Concentration Camp from today...............

In my books, they are pussies from today............ imagine, not even one boot on the ground in Gaza and all this random targeting............ how low can a nation sink............ I know............ as low as Israel!

There are doctors claiming that DIME munitions might have been used. The IDF is using the main guns on their MBTs in built up areas, indirect fire support in the form of artillery barrages (what sort of fire discipline do these folks have?) in densely populated areas, what form of ELINT or HUMINT is being used to even designate these targets, at least can Israeli try and shed light upon what target was assumed/projected to be housed within/beneath the house they bombed (referred to in the OP). This doesn't even look like signature strikes, where ELINT and comm. interception lead to target designation and the terrorist leader happened to be in a civilian house, I mean what legitimate military target did they knock out in the process of the concerned strike?

 

[KingMamba]

Reminds me of the Lebanon war when the Israelis could not kill any Hezbollah fighters they panicked and started carpet bombing all of Lebanon.

 

[Hussein]

That's always Israel's tactic. When it becomes desperate in a war, it starts deliberately targeting civilians, just like 2006, 2008 and 2012 and thanks to its hypocrite powers in the west, Israel's crimes are labeled as 'self defense'. The world is being run by rules of jungle.

Still it is not a dictatorship like Iran. thank you for your stupid comment.

And anyway nevermind mister propaganda, but England criticized attitude of Israel and many important personnalities in West. Maybe it is much harder in USA where people criticizing get in troubles, but here not.