Naval and Military developments in Turkey’s neighborhood

[CAN_TR]

It seems a financial agreement was found between France and Greece for two FDI frigates. The construction of the second FDI will begin at the end of 2020 and it could be built for Greece actually. The launch would take place in 2023 and the delivery in 2024. The second one would be delivered in 2025 or 2026. Greece is still hesitating for a third and a fourth frigate.


View attachment 635451

The French and Greek frigates will adopt the same configuration. 3 x SYLVER A50 + 1 x SYLVER A70. (32 VLS / 24 for Aster 15/30 missiles / 8 for cruise missiles.) and 8 exocet missiles. The main gun will be a 76 mm/62 Super Rapido from Otobreda.

The difference between the two configurations will be the integration of Phalanx CIWS on the Greek frigates. However according to French sources,the Greek have opted instead for a RAM MK 31 GMWS on each frigate.

I read something like 2.4 billion Euros for 2 Frigates, if true you guys know how to pull the money out of your customers pockets.

By such a pricetag no wonder why they hesitates for additional ones.

 

[azyr]

It seems a financial agreement was found between France and Greece for two FDI frigates. The construction of the second FDI will begin at the end of 2020 and it could be built for Greece actually. The launch would take place in 2023 and the delivery in 2024. The second one would be delivered in 2025 or 2026. Greece is still hesitating for a third and a fourth frigate.


View attachment 635451

The French and Greek frigates will adopt the same configuration. 3 x SYLVER A50 + 1 x SYLVER A70. (32 VLS / 24 for Aster 15/30 missiles / 8 for cruise missiles.) and 8 exocet missiles. The main gun will be a 76 mm/62 Super Rapido from Otobreda.

The difference between the two configurations will be the integration of Phalanx CIWS on the Greek frigates. However according to French sources,the Greek have opted instead for a RAM MK 31 GMWS on each frigate.

Are they renting these or is it an outright buy?

 

[Vergennes]

I read something like 2.4 billion Euros for 2 Frigates, if true you guys know how to pull the money out of your customers pockets.

By such a pricetag no wonder why they hesitates for additional ones.

The cost of two FDIs for the Hellenic Navy amounts according to some sources,to ~€1.612 million,taking into account study costs.

The amount you are quoting does take into account the armaments (~€500 million,Aster and cruise missiles) + the training of the crews + maintenance contracts (~€300 million) + new infrastructures intended to support the two frigates + RAM MK 31 GMWS etc.

The final estimated cost is between €2.500 and €2.800 million.

Are they renting these or is it an outright buy?

Outright buy,for now at least. France surely offers/proposes them great financial flexibility.

Before the economic crisis they were in talk to buy 6 Fremm frigates to be built in Greece.

The design they chose was with a 127mm cannon,16 Aster 30 missiles,16 cruise missiles and 24 Mica VL missiles on the back of the ship and 8 exocet missiles.

Plans were however abandoned.

Few years ago there were talks to lease two French Fremm already in service for five years the time those two FDIs are built,but nothing since then.

 

[mehmeTcc]

Are they renting these or is it an outright buy?

I remember Greek websites claiming France offers a buyback option in case of Greek finances not being able to cope with these ships for 5 years. So if they can't afford it for a certain amount of time, French Navy would get those ships back.

Quite honestly Belharra doesn't offer much compared to I-class and we would have the numerical superiority in Aegean. Better hurry up with TCG Istanbul and TCG İzmir tho.

Also I should add that French Navy expects first of this ships to enter service in 2023? So in best case scenario komşu can get these ships in 2025s. By then I think we would be talking about TF-2000s.

 

[ANMDT]

Quite honestly Belharra doesn't offer much compared to I-class and we would have the numerical superiority in Aegean. Better hurry up with TCG Istanbul and TCG İzmir tho.

Belharra class offers Aster 15+30 + SCALP ,Istanbul Class offers ESSM + 8 more SSM. Belharra has better capabilities in detection and engagement of aerial targets.
Naval campaign in Aegean sea will be ruled by FACs and proper aerial defenses.

 

[MMM-E]

The French and Greek frigates will adopt the same configuration. 3 x SYLVER A50 + 1 x SYLVER A70. (32 VLS / 24 for Aster 15/30 missiles / 8 for cruise missiles.) and 8 exocet missiles.

what about MTCR agreement ? will have Greek Frigates 1.000 km MdcN Missile ? or just 280km ?

The final estimated cost is between €2.500 and €2.800 million.

waste money

Greece never can match with upcoming Turkish military power

Turkey produce 220+ km ATMACA anti ship missile for less than $500.000
and 100 land based ATMACA anti ship missiles ( $50 million ) will be enough to turn Greek Frigates ( $3 billion ) into crap of metal in Aegean

 

[mehmeTcc]

Belharra class offers Aster 15+30 + SCALP ,Istanbul Class offers ESSM + 8 more SSM. Belharra has better capabilities in detection and engagement of aerial targets.
Naval campaign in Aegean sea will be ruled by FACs and proper aerial defenses.

Yeah Belharra definitely excels with its sensors suite in this comparison. But for every ship they buy we can field much more as I-class is much cheaper. I guess we should also wait for Turk class FAC to have a clear picture of what the scene is going to look like.

 

[ANMDT]

Yeah Belharra definitely excels with its sensors suite in this comparison. But for every ship they buy we can field much more as I-class is much cheaper. I guess we should also wait for Turk class FAC to have a clear picture of what the scene is going to look like.

Cost does not matter here, you can not replace a ship with its trained officers in 5 years or even in a longer time span. Frigates are not like tanks, planes or boats, you can not field them as much as many just because it is cheaper and expect them to be efficient, it is all about requirements, missions and capabilities you need. If we needed Istanbul class to be capable in AAW as much as Belharra it would be around the same price.

 

[Dante80]

what about MTCR agreement ? will have Greek Frigates 1.000 km MdcN Missile ? or just 280km ?

My understanding is that there is no limited range variant for the missile at hand. Greece has been interested about Scalp Naval for more than a decade now, after fielding the 500km+ air carried variant for the system.

MTCR does not (strictly speaking) apply for Category 1 items sold between NATO members. It also doesn't apply for items carrying less than 500kg of payload.

 

[MMM-E]

My understanding is that there is no limited range variant for the missile at hand. Greece has been interested about Scalp Naval for more than a decade now, after fielding the 500km+ air carried variant for the system.

MTCR does not (strictly speaking) apply for Category 1 items sold between NATO members. It also doesn't apply for items carrying less than 500kg of payload.

yes Poland bought 900+ km JASSM-ER air launched Cruise Missile against Russia

Poland can fire several tens of JASSM-ER missiles on Russia
and Russia can burn Poland by hundreds of 500/600/1500/2000/2400 km land-naval-air launched Ballistic and Cruise Missiles KH-65SE , KH-101 , KALIBR , RK-55 , ZICRON , ISKANDER , ISKANDER-K and KINZHAL


maybe Greece can fire 32 MdcN Naval Cruise Missiles on Turkiye
and Turkiye can fire 320 land-naval-air launched Ballistic and Cruise Missiles BORA , SOM , ATMACA and GEZGIN

btw thanks to Turkish KORKUT 35mm airbust SPAAG , HISAR-A and HISAR-O Air Defense Systems to intercept Cruise Missiles

Our so-called NATO allies never would sell Air Defense Systems and long range Cruise Missiles to Turkiye
( Turkiye could buy only 50 SLAM-ER air launched Cruise Missiles in 2000 ... nothing else )

 

[Constantin84]

yes Poland bought 900+ km JASSM-ER air launched Cruise Missile against Russia

Poland can fire several tens of JASSM-ER missiles on Russia
and Russia can burn Poland by hundreds of 500/600/1500/2000/2400 km land-naval-air launched Ballistic and Cruise Missiles KH-65SE , KH-101 , KALIBR , RK-55 , ZICRON , ISKANDER , ISKANDER-K and KINZHAL


maybe Greece can fire 32 MdcN Naval Cruise Missiles on Turkiye
and Turkiye can fire 320 land-naval-air launched Ballistic and Cruise Missiles BORA , SOM , ATMACA and GEZGIN

btw thanks to Turkish KORKUT 35mm airbust SPAAG , HISAR-A and HISAR-O Air Defense Systems to intercept Cruise Missiles

Our so-called NATO allies never would sell Air Defense Systems and long range Cruise Missiles to Turkiye
( Turkiye could buy only 50 SLAM-ER air launched Cruise Missiles in 2000 ... nothing else )

I wonder why the Greeks are even trying when they should just be resigned to their faith seeing your endless lists of wunder weapons.Heck, nevermind the Greeks, even the French or Italians with their puny VLS with only 16 aster Missiles...waste of Time!

 

[ÇölKaplanı]

Why don't they buy 5 La Fayettes from France for a cheap cost which they can use for almost 30 years? They can easily buy 5 La Fayettes and modernize them with more advanced sensors + more VLS to have the Aster 15/30 capability but they think they can still match with our might with paying 2.4 billion Euros for only 2 Frigates
No wonder they almost went bankrupt Let them think they can still match our might and buy more and more expensive military toys... I wonder if their German daddies would save them or not this time?

 

[aziqbal]

its not about Greece its about Eastern Mediterranean and actually Mediterranean as a whole

During the Cold War USN maintained 2 full strength Carrier strike groups in the Med best part of 40 years

Then it became quite but now Egypt has 2 x LHD, Algeria has small LPD/LHD, Italy has 2 carriers and a LPD , Spain has LHD+LPD

Turkey has 1 x LHD + 1 more coming soon with 2 x LST

its getting busy, its getting really busy and one who gets building and starts patrolling will gain the upper hand

 

[Melkor]

its not about Greece its about Eastern Mediterranean and actually Mediterranean as a whole

During the Cold War USN maintained 2 full strength Carrier strike groups in the Med best part of 40 years

Then it became quite but now Egypt has 2 x LHD, Algeria has small LPD/LHD, Italy has 2 carriers and a LPD , Spain has LHD+LPD

Turkey has 1 x LHD + 1 more coming soon with 2 x LST

its getting busy, its getting really busy and one who gets building and starts patrolling will gain the upper hand

Feels like Turkey is a bit behind to be honest...

 

[himate]

Feels like Turkey is a bit behind to be honest...

I have mixed feeling about carriers. Even though having carriers will bring huge prestige for turkey but with the advancement of technology in the 20 years they might not able to survive against a capable enemy. Like the way battleships became obsolete after the ww2, this time carriers might meet the same fate if proven to be a ship of mass death in a war against technologically capable enemy with advance anti ship missiles. I feel carriers are only good against defenseless or weak enemies like terrorists or third world country