NATO Forces Kill 13 Pak FC's out of a total of 27!

[Interceptor]

We should follow "Pakistan come first" policy, rethink and renegotiate our cooperation in WoT and dictate the therms and role for our support. NO FOREIGN TROOPS OR DRONES ON OUR SOIL OR AEROSPACE, period!

There will be no peace in FATA with continued US/Nato air attacks, the way we're heading will lead us directly towards a civil war.

Better dear friend would be Baluchistan and NWFP come first policy, we have excluded them from the rest of the Pakistani race when we entered with guns and killed and jailed their leaders, the realism is that we better make our Provinces more stronger, I think the part of no foreign troops and drones, will have to be changed in retrospect to out foreign policy, the way Musharraf invited them giving a free hand on using our bases and our Army, they got the best luxury in the world.

The Peace deals are happening under supervision of Asfand and I trust him, he will get Pakistan through this hell. But whenever we have a Peace deal going on the US attacks in retaliation, infact the attack occurred just after we made a peace deal in the tribal area, it came on geo, this attack however got broadcasted by the media which I find is a change from before.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Some more details from the Washington post, confirming Neo and other's version of the events.

Pakistani military officials said about 25 members of the paramilitary Frontier Corps were manning the check post at Gora Prai at the time of the strike. Abbas, the Army spokesman, said seven Frontier Corps troops were also injured in the skirmish.

But late Thursday, details of the attack and the casualty counts continued to vary widely. The clash erupted when Afghan troops tried to establish a checkpoint near the village area of Sheikh Baba in the Mohmand tribal region, near a disputed border position between the two countries, according to local villagers and Pakistani military officials.

Taliban militants apparently opened fire and were then joined by Pakistani military forces, setting off a three- to four-hour-long battle. The clash at the edge of Pakistan's tribal areas widened when U.S. warplanes dropped more than a dozen bombs on the conflict zone after Afghan soldiers called NATO forces for air support.

On Wednesday, Maulvi Omar, a spokesman for the Pakistani Taliban, said nine militant fighters and one child were killed during the operation. Omar said Taliban fighters fought "side by side" with Pakistani soldiers against U.S.-led Afghan forces.

A Pakistani military official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter, said that about 50 Frontier Corps soldiers were at the checkpoint and about half, or 25, of them were killed. The attack, the military official said, has deeply angered local members of two tribes dominant in the region, who have subsequently vowed to take revenge on coalition forces.

U.S. Releases Video of Skirmish Along Afghan Border - washingtonpost.com

What really ticked me off was the brazen attempt to use that UAV video to paint a picture that is obviously not true given statements form various other arms of the US military.

To recap the discrepancies:

1. The video talks of 7 militants and seven confirmed casualties.

There were at least 11 FC soldiers killed, a dozen or so injured and an equal number of Taliban militants and a child killed.

2. The video says there were no structures.

Video and pictures from th region clearly show the rubble of destroyed structures, plus the USAF statement that structures were attacked.

3. The video mentions 4 bombs.

The USAF statement mentions twelve.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Better dear friend would be Baluchistan and NWFP come first policy, we have excluded them from the rest of the Pakistani race when we entered with guns and killed and jailed their leaders, the realism is that we better make our Provinces more stronger, I think the part of no foreign troops and drones, will have to be changed in retrospect to out foreign policy, the way Musharraf invited them giving a free hand on using our bases and our Army, they got the best luxury in the world.

The Peace deals are happening under supervision of Asfand and I trust him, he will get Pakistan through this hell. But whenever we have a Peace deal going on the US attacks in retaliation, infact the attack occurred just after we made a peace deal in the tribal area, it came on geo, this attack however got broadcasted by the media which I find is a change from before.

Putting Balochistan and NWFP first is putting Pakistan first Interceptor - they are Pakistan as much as anything, and without them there is no Pakistan.

I commend the initiatives taken by the PPP in deleting the concurrent list, and the proposal to allow provinces to keep at least fifty percent of all revenue generated from natural resources in their territory. For a country as large and diverse as Pakistan, decentralization is extremely important.

I think what Neo and others may have been getting at is that whether or not you agree with Musharraf's polices, that time is past, and what is done is done. I am now only interested in the solutions and way forward this government will choose for us, and that is what our discourse should revolve around, not bashing individuals and policies from days gone by.

None of us wants this government to fail, despite our cynicism. We would love to have our doubts proved wrong by it. In the end all we care about is Pakistan, not Musharraf, not Zardari, not Nawaz - hence "Pakistan First"

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

The US can fight the Taliban without engaging in actions that hit at a very sensitive issue in Afghan-Pakistan relations.

This isn't an issue to be taken lightly - under the US umbrella Karzai and others in his government have made some strong expansionist and irredentist claims. There are many in the Pakistani establishment who view this with a lot of concern, especially given the historical hostility between Afghan and Pakistani governments.

Within this historical background and hostility, for the US to involve itself, fighting the Taliban or otherwise, in this issue was extremely stupid and wrong.

Perhaps some more time studying the regional dynamics should be in order for the US military.

I cannot comment on the issue as such except on what is in the media.

The US has always made its writ run in the border areas of Afghanistan and Pakistan and has also fired it missile in Pakistan territory and so this latest strike is not anything new. The only thing unusual is that PA troops were at the target end. The US are not backdown in their assertion that they conducted a military operations as per their intelligence report.

If indeed this is an expansionist action, then there is reasons for concern from the Pakistani point of view. However, it was a US led attack and hence it has greater connotations and that is what should concern Pakistan govt to solve with the US. I also saw in the news the condemnation aired by the Pakistan PM in Parliament. Maybe this will be taken up with the US as the US Ambassador had been summoned as per the news. We have to await the decision of this action of calling the US Ambassador. The news did not mention if a Démarches has been given.

Indeed, it is a bit unusual a situation for the US to involve itself in a border dispute. But the US contention is that it was only taking on terrorists or so I believe is what the nub of the issue is.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

amazing how the world turns, simply amazing. the taliban with their rag tag sandals can attack the US without fear, Iranian leaders can say the stupidest things and can bleed Israel without any hesitation or opposition, uzbekistan can kick the US out of its bases whenever it feels like, while Pakistan, a nuclear power with one of the largest and most professional armies in the world, can do nothing but protest.

everyone here can try to talk around it, but the only thing we all can see in the future is possible war with the US and Pakistan. now wouldn't that make a good match? the US which has used Pakistan to take out the enemy it couldn't face itself. the US which has dumped Pakistan over and over again simply on a whim. and here we had people talk as if extremists and India were the worsts of Pakistan's problems.

do you think Pakistan stands a chance? what do your eyes of forsight show you? can Pakistan even manage to defend itself at all? what will Pakistan do now?

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

We should follow "Pakistan come first" policy, rethink and renegotiate our cooperation in WoT and dictate the therms and role for our support. NO FOREIGN TROOPS OR DRONES ON OUR SOIL OR AEROSPACE, period!

There will be no peace in FATA with continued US/Nato air attacks, the way we're heading will lead us directly towards a civil war.

This is feasible, but the economic, diplomatic and military issues and even isolation and its consequence have to be considered.

If it were that simple a decision, then both Musharraf govt and the present govt would have taken this decision without wasting time.

But, obviously it is not an easy decision as one feels it is.

National pride is one thing and reality is another.

As I said in another thread/ post that the situation after 9/11 has put Pakistan in an unenviable position.

 

[blain2]

Some more details from the Washington post, confirming Neo and other's version of the events.



What really ticked me off was the brazen attempt to use that UAV video to paint a picture that is obviously not true given statements form various other arms of the US military.

To recap the discrepancies:

1. The video talks of 7 militants and seven confirmed casualties.

There were at least 11 FC soldiers killed, a dozen or so injured and an equal number of Taliban militants and a child killed.

2. The video says there were no structures.

Video and pictures from th region clearly show the rubble of destroyed structures, plus the USAF statement that structures were attacked.

3. The video mentions 4 bombs.

The USAF statement mentions twelve.

I would add that the people being referred to as "Taliban" were actually Pakistani Pashtun tribesmen who have never allowed the Afghans (Panjsheri mafia) to setup posts on the Pakistani side of the border. This was a classic case of the Afghans taking advantage of US presence in the area to settle a territorial dispute.

 

[Awesome]

NO you thinks so. We were used under the dictatorship it is too late to bother budging and making new head way. Pakistan has to live with them for the next many years. Lets look at the options of restoring peace in our troubled tribal areas, fighting the US is stupid, the best return of immediate relieve to Pakistan is peace in the tribal areas, and then it would be better to challenge our allies' on their grounds in terms of diplomacy and supremacy.

Who is talking about fighting the US?

If you agree that what Musharraf did with the US was wrong, repeating it won't make it right? Musharraf supporters kept saying all along that if it were any other leader than him, they would've given the same support to the US.

And now you're proving them right.

Plus who is talking about fighting with the US? Just deny them airspace and send a serious message across. Open it up a few weeks or even days later, but show something significant will happen if they repeat this.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

I require a clarification since it has been said that Tajiks and others are involved in this attack.

Am I to understand that there is no Pashtuns in the Afghan Army?

 

[Awesome]

I require a clarification since it has been said that Tajiks and others are involved in this attack.

Am I to understand that there is no Pashtuns in the Afghan Army?

Where did you hear that?

That would explain a lot of things. All non-Pashtuns of Afghanistan totally despise Pashtuns and of couce vice versa.

 

[blain2]

Maybe my mention of the "Panjsheri mafia" has brought about the Tajik point. The reality is that Pashtuns are represented by token numbers in the ANA. Most Pashtuns are sitting it out when it comes to the ANA as they know that the Army is most likely to be used against their own fellow Pashtuns.

This is another major underlying problem with Afghanistan's stability.

 

[Interceptor]

Who is talking about fighting the US?

If you agree that what Musharraf did with the US was wrong, repeating it won't make it right? Musharraf supporters kept saying all along that if it were any other leader than him, they would've given the same support to the US.

And now you're proving them right.

I say no they wouldn't, because in democratic country the Parliment is supreme where as in a one man show it isn't, the fact is that US didn't have good relations with Pakistan during the Nawaz era, it shows where the decision would have been. Prove me wrong on this point.

Plus who is talking about fighting with the US? Just deny them airspace and send a serious message across. Open it up a few weeks or even days later, but show something significant will happen if they repeat this.

I read your post before on this point, I didn't answer it, on the basis of what are you trying to say here, who gave them permission to fly over Pakistan? I do remember that Journalist who saw a US plane take off from a Pakistani base he was arrested in suspicion of terrorism, and had been made in to a missing persons case, he was later released just last mounth. I am sure what ever deals that were signed in the past are now coming to haunt us. Now who gave the US permission to use our Airspace? Asim no one gave them any premissions to openly fly in and out of Pakistan. We have a border and they must respect it, after all it has been closed by the previous government for security reasons. On the part of fighting the US, I am sure you have read the posts of others who feel that Pakistan should give an equal and opposite response, and I dont think that is in the interest of Pakistan.

Asim they use SPY planes to attack in Pakistani tribal Areas, and it shows what is happening, in fact I want make some breaking news for you I was told that a US drone plane fired a Missile near Islamabad during Musharraf era it was covered up by the ISI now what does this tell you Asim.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Salim,

To clarify, I am not suggesting that the US deliberately involved itself in the territorial dispute on the side of the Afghans.

I am arguing that the US has become extremely careless and gung-ho (others might say it always has been). There are sensitivities here that should have been understood - especially given past military exchanges between the ANA and Pakistani SF's.

It seems to me that the ANA were the cowards here, and took advantage of the US umbrella to achieve certain objectives. However, for the attempt at obfuscation through the UAV footage, and arrogance in not issuing an apology (so far) there is no one to blame but the US.

 

[Awesome]

I say no they wouldn't, because in democratic country the Parliment is supreme where as in a one man show it isn't, the fact is that US didn't have good relations with Pakistan during the Nawaz era, it shows where the decision would have been. Prove me wrong on this point.

I'll let go of the woulda shoulda stuff... Just pointing what others have accused...

I read your post before on this point, I didn't answer it, on the basis of what are you trying to say here, who gave them permission to fly over Pakistan?

The previous government did, post-9/11.

I do remember that Journalist who saw a US plane take off from a Pakistani base he was arrested in suspicion of terrorism, and had been made in to a missing persons case, he was later released just last mounth.

That's a non-issue in this context.

I am sure what ever deals that were signed in the past are now coming to haunt us. Now who gave the US permission to use our Airspace? Asim no one gave them any premissions to openly fly in and out of Pakistan.

No the US has airspace rights. They can fly over Pakistan to goto Afghanistan and patrol the border areas using drones. Shouldn't the new government undo the mistakes of the previous government? Weren't they voted in by the people of Pakistan to do so?

We have a border and they must respect it, after all it has been closed by the previous government for security reasons. On the part of fighting the US, I am sure you have read the posts of others who feel that Pakistan should give an equal and opposite response, and I dont think that is in the interest of Pakistan.

Hey if we have the means to do so we should give them an equal repsonse, take over Kabul and do rock concerts day and night. But unfortunately we don't. But we CAN do a minimalist move of just denying airspace. This would increase America's costs 10 folds. They'd be bending over backwards immediately and begging us to reopen. THEN they won't do this again.

You know what Bush, Obama, McCain have said. If they have actionable intelligence of their enemies within Pakistan they would attack Pakistan. This is not acceptable, their intelligence should be judged by our intelligence. When they attack they almost always kill twice as many civillians than the militants.

How're you ever going to change this trend by not doing anything?

 

[Interceptor]

No the US has airspace rights. They can fly over Pakistan to goto Afghanistan and patrol the border areas using drones. Shouldn't the new government undo the mistakes of the previous government? Weren't they voted in by the people of Pakistan to do so?

Oh that wasn't a wise decision was it now, I knew that they did use our airspace on the basis of WoT but I didn't think Pakistan would give a free hand, they gave complete free hand on our counrtry I cant believe this, sure if they attack on Pakistani soil on basis of WoT and ask premission that would have sensible but giving a free hand is stupid. The new government has just completed its 60 days so I think you need to just give them time this stuff requires patients and a great deal of it to be honest.