NATO Forces Kill 13 Pak FC's out of a total of 27!

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The new government has just completed its 60 days so I think you need to just give them time this stuff requires patients and a great deal of it to be honest.

I would agree with that.

At this point the US would love nothing more than anther coup and a "strongman" who could be arm twisted in all sorts of ways (lack of democracy sanctions etc.) to kowtow to US demands.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

Post Deleted

 

[Awesome]

I would agree with that.

At this point the US would love nothing more than anther coup and a "strongman" who could be arm twisted in all sorts of ways (lack of democracy sanctions etc.) to kowtow to US demands.

Of course the present government, i.e. Zardari, is accused to be in cahoots with the US a lot more than Musharraf.

 

[Awesome]

I remember Benazir had said she'd allow attacks within Pakistan in a hunt for militants.

I wonder what new arrangements have been made with the Americans.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Of course the present government, i.e. Zardari, is accused to be in cahoots with the US a lot more than Musharraf.

And Nawaz will leave no stone unturned to make that association stick come election time.

Nawaz's Islamist credentials do have a use.

If Zardari and the PPP are seen as blatantly selling out to the US, and on top of that fail to deliver in governance and all the other issues the Awam is pissed about, they will come crashing down in the elections.

Zardari is no BB, this is his only chance to build a legacy and a support base as a political leader of stature. There is only so much pressure his government will be able to take IMO, hence my belief that behind the scenes there will a lot of assurances being demanded that something like this will not happen again.

 

[Awesome]

And Nawaz will leave no stone unturned to make that association stick come election time.

Nawaz's Islamist credentials do have a use.

If Zardari and the PPP are seen as blatantly selling out to the US, and on top of that fail to deliver in governance and all the other issues the Awam is pissed about, they will come crashing down in the elections.

Zardari is no BB, this is his only chance to build a legacy and a support base as a political leader of stature. There is only so much pressure his government will be able to take IMO, hence my belief that behind the scenes there will a lot of assurances being demanded that something like this will not happen again.

You're assuming Zardari too will hold free and fair elections .

To reiterate a point you were making earlier:

According to the U.S. military, two Air Force F-15E jets and a B-1B Lancer bomber then dropped the bombs, which included both precision-guided and unguided munitions and which weighed between 500 and 2,000 pounds. The bombs were used "to destroy anti-coalition members in the open and in buildings in the vicinity of Asadabad," Afghanistan, according to a statement released by the U.S. military's Combined Air and Space Operations Center for Southwest Asia.

U.S., Pakistan at Odds Over Strike in Tribal Area - washingtonpost.com

So they fired upon buildings. Why are they lying about "no structures in a 20 minute video", while previously they've admitted the fighting went on for 3 hours +

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You're assuming Zardari too will hold free and fair elections .

Valid point!

And I will grant you that my argument is built upon the supposition that the elections will be largely free and fair - which, considering that we have presumably only had two "free and fair" elections in our history, is a big assumption.

The package the PPP wants to pass includes reforms on how the Election Commissioner is appointed, and the electoral reforms Musharra passed, if not repealed, should go a long way in keeping the elections transparent.

But this is Pakistan, so I concede that you have valid cause for concern on this matter.

Thanks for posting that report.

 

[blain2]

The Afghan high-handedness is pointed out by another eminent Pakistani expert. Some reaction to the Afghan high-handedness is in order for sure:

The US Attack on Pakistan
By
Jehangir karamat


On June 10, 2008 US Coalition forces in Afghanistan attacked a Pakistani check post on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border in the Mohmand Agency---one of the seven tribal agencies in Pakistan’s Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA). The attack, in which ground and air forces were used, left 11 Pakistani security forces personnel dead including a major from the Pakistan Army.

This attack marks several firsts. This is the first such action in Mohmand Agency which is one of the smaller agencies where there has been no significant militant activity. This is the first time that the US has deliberately targeted cooperating Pakistani forces---there has been no statement by the US that this was ‘friendly fire’ and that the intention was not to target Pakistani forces. Although full details are not available but it seems that is the first case of collusion between the Afghan National Army and US Forces against Pakistan’s forces in support of Afghan claims over a disputed border area. Finally this is the first time that a Pakistan military spokesman has condemned the attack in extremely strong language. Unless the US publicly backtracks from these facts with accurate information then this will turn out to be the first step in alienating the Pakistan military that has been and is closely allied to and supportive of the US military.

The attack comes in the wake of recent statements by the US alleging Taliban-Al Qaeda presence in the FATA and that the next Al Qaeda attack was being planned from this area. There were also reports of CIA presence in FATA and a few days before the attack the Director of the CIA had visited Islamabad. There had been unsubstantiated reports hinting at collusion between Pakistan’s para- military Frontier Corps that mans the border posts and militants. None of these could justify a deliberate targeting of Pakistani security forces.

The attack comes at a singularly bad time. In support of the democratic process the military has accepted a decline in its control over the situation and has deferred to a policy of dialogue initiated by the new political government. This policy is in a nascent state with many wrinkles still being ironed out. The political situation is uncertain with a fragile coalition struggling to survive and under siege from protesting lawyers and civil society to deliver on election promises. The economy has been badly hit by external shocks and there is anger over rising inflation and power shortages. Lastly the day of the attack was the day on which the national budget was being presented in the new assembly. There are speculations that the timing was deliberate to drive home the US exasperation with ‘peace deals’ that in their opinion are headed for eventual collapse and amount to surrender of sovereignty to the militants. Without a doubt the US attack will have a negative impact on public opinion about US policies and intentions.

The struggle in Southern Afghanistan is between the US and ‘Northern Alliance’ Afghan forces and the Pashtuns of Afghanistan—predominantly in Southern Afghanistan. The driver for the struggle is US presence in Afghanistan---seen as foreign invaders. Al Qaeda exploits and gains from this struggle in numerous ways and therefore backs the Taliban. Drugs, weapons, Afghan refugees in Pakistan, warlords and the corruption and lack of capacity in Afghanistan create the environment. The struggle in FATA is for control over space and people for economic gains from drugs, vehicles, weapons, equipment of all kinds and illegal taxes extorted over all activity. Al Qaeda-Taleban support and back this struggle with their expertise and resources for safe sanctuaries in FATA. To survive against military attacks the militants threaten the stability and security of Pakistan from within through attacks in the major cities. Pakistan seeks to limit militant influence and restrict space under their control through containment that includes a broad range of measures. Pakistan also seeks to restrict, deny and finally eliminate all militant control over any space in its territory. By no stretch of the imagination can Pakistan be considered anything other than a cooperative ally---it is certainly in no position to collude with those who seek to undermine and destroy it. Pakistan’s strategy should not lead to the panic and impatience that leads to hasty decisions based on exaggerated fears.

Even if the US anticipates failure of Pakistan policy in FATA there is still a need to develop capacity in Pakistan, support its political process without reservations and influence it positively. Allies may have to cope with adversarial segments within them—actions that encourage and enlarge such segments are in no ones interest. The Pakistan military remains a strong, viable and stabilizing institution and a critical ally in the war against terror and for the internal security that is vital for economic growth. This economic growth is without doubt the most significant factor in Pakistan’s future.

 

[BATMAN]

The new government has just completed its 60 days so I think you need to just give them time this stuff requires patients and a great deal of it to be honest.

I hope you are talking to Americans. They need not to make PPP's rule difficult and put Zardari's loyalties in question.
Whole political parties of Pakistan have extended their co-operation but whom will you blame when ruling coalition is protesting in whole Pakistan?

 

[BATMAN]

In past few days P. Kiyani has said that he will pull out from Afghan border and deploy Pak Army back to Indian border. These following events are just an attempt to provoke Pak Army and find a reason to cross international border, where they will kill few villagers in anticipation of backlash against Pak govt.
We should never give them what they want instead we give them what the least expect.
Kyiani should continue to mobilize army to Indian border. Next issue is all Pakistani posts in north should be monitored by a camera and radio from distant spot.
It has not ended, infect a new game is begining. So Pak Army better be prepared for next strike.
We all know that previously US tried to post the jailer of gitmo as military attaché to Pakistan but Shireen Mizari pointed out for which she has been fired from her job. Do you see the point.
We can never fight Americans until we clean our own house, we have to begin from within there are thousands of Indian agents in every corner of Pakistan. We need to know what Zardari discussed with Americans in foreignland.

 

[blain2]

Dawn's editorial for the day hits on the same point in conclusion:


A counter-offensive?


“UNPROVOKED and cowardly” is how a Pakistani security official has described the US air strike on Pakistani soldiers from across the Durand Line in the Mohmand area on Tuesday. The attack killed several Pakistani soldiers, and the security official termed it as an “act of aggression” that would not serve the common cause of fighting terror. In what indeed is the strongest criticism of the US-led allies in Afghanistan, the official said the attack “hit at the very basis of cooperation and the sacrifice” which Pakistani soldiers had been making in the war on terror. The air strike came after the militants launched an attack on a target inside Afghanistan. But the Pakistani soldiers were killed in what has been described as “a counter-offensive”. It is significant that this is the first major US air strike since the democratic government began negotiations with the Taliban to end the insurgency in Fata.

The incident must be sorted out to end the friction that has now become characteristic of the relationship between Pakistan and the US-Nato officials in Afghanistan. Islamabad must insist that those responsible for this ‘cowardly’ attack must be made accountable. The episode also serves to highlight the lack of coordination between security authorities on both sides. At a higher governmental level, it is the distrust between Islamabad and Kabul that is the root cause of the confusion among the officials on the spot. Not a day passes without some Nato official accusing Pakistani authorities, especially the ISI, of helping the militants. Islamabad’s plea that it has deployed 100,000 soldiers to combat the Taliban and has suffered over 1,000 military casualties goes unheard. An added problem is Pakistan’s domestic political situation, for the democratic government has still not settled down. There is a sense of uncertainty, the focus of political power appears to be weak, and foreign governments must be wondering who to talk to. This has disastrous consequences for the situation in Fata and the peace negotiations. One does not even know who is talking to the Swat militants and with what specific objective. A federal spokesman says the talks have been scuppered, while the provincial government denies this. Before we expect Kabul and others in Afghanistan to accept our point of view we must first set our house in order.

 

[maqsad]

There were reports of an armed predator hovering over those border posts as well if I am not mistaken. This could possibly mean that the same psychopaths in the CIA who fire missiles at houses all over FATA, Balochistan and NWFP were playing with their red buttons once again. Has anyone even mentioned where these bombs and missiles came from that hit the border post buildings? Were some or even all of them fired by the CIA predator?

And one more thing, this fighting raged for 3 hours. This means Gilani, Musharaff, Kiyani and other active duty generals knew something was happening. What were they doing for those 3 hours? Aren't they supposed to have hotlines open to NATO command in Afghanistan?

So far even the Pentagon has not figured out what has happened which means either that CIA drone, or even some special forces of the US or another military power within Afghanistan fired those missiles in all that confusion and now the top dogs at the pentagon have been forced to appear like they wanted to fire at pakistani guards--this is really stretching it but anything is possible.

There is way too much confusion and conflicting information here. It doesn't add up..especially that 3 hours of inaction. What happened in those three hours--that is a lot of time to make decisions but nobody has said a word about what was heard or said or discussed then.

 

[Keysersoze]

There were reports of an armed predator hovering over those border posts as well if I am not mistaken. This could possibly mean that the same psychopaths in the CIA who fire missiles at houses all over FATA, Balochistan and NWFP were playing with their red buttons once again. Has anyone even mentioned where these bombs and missiles came from that hit the border post buildings? Were some or even all of them fired by the CIA predator?

And one more thing, this fighting raged for 3 hours. This means Gilani, Musharaff, Kiyani and other active duty generals knew something was happening. What were they doing for those 3 hours? Aren't they supposed to have hotlines open to NATO command in Afghanistan?

So far even the Pentagon has not figured out what has happened which means either that CIA drone, or even some special forces of the US or another military power within Afghanistan fired those missiles in all that confusion and now the top dogs at the pentagon have been forced to appear like they wanted to fire at pakistani guards--this is really stretching it but anything is possible.

There is way too much confusion and conflicting information here. It doesn't add up..especially that 3 hours of inaction. What happened in those three hours--that is a lot of time to make decisions but nobody has said a word about what was heard or said or discussed then.

The bombs came from 2 F-15's and a B1 bomber. Not from some "CIA predator"

It's one thing to be angry over the intrusion upon Pakistani sovereignty. Totally another to start making ridiculously convoluted conspiracies.

Bear in mind the YAnks always screw up like this. There was a old saying that during world war 2 when the Germans flew over the Allies would duck and hide. When the British flew over the Germans would hide. When the Americans flew over everyone would hide.

 

[Interceptor]

Govt seeks opposition’s help in framing new anti-terror policy

By Amir Wasim

June 06, 2008

ISLAMABAD, June 5: Foreign Minister Makhdoom Shah Mahmood Qureshi on Thursday told the National Assembly that the government had adopted a new strategy to counter terrorism after realising that the policies of the previous regime were not working.

Winding up a debate on an adjournment motion on last month’s missile attack in Bajaur Agency, the foreign minister sought help from all political parties, including those on opposition benches, in formulating a policy on the “war against terror” to tackle frequent violations of the Pakistan-Afghanistan border and missile attacks in tribal areas.
“Military means is not a solution,” Mr Qureshi told the house.
He said the new government had engaged peace-loving and law-abiding people in tribal areas and was concentrating on socio-economic uplift of these areas to bring them on a par with the rest of the country.

“We will re-establish the writ of the government not through military means, but through political engagement and socio-economic development. And if we will have to use military we will not feel shy,” Mr Qureshi said.

“We will not succumb to terrorists and their sanctuaries and militant groups will not be allowed to use our territory against any country, including Afghanistan.”

Mr Qureshi’s forceful defence of the government’s new policy was prompted by former interior minister Aftab Sherpao’s unexpected criticism of Islamabad’s stand which, according to him, was resulting in the killing of Pakhtoons. Mr Sherpao was interior minister in the Saukat Aziz-led government when a full-fledged military operation was launched in the tribal areas.

Earlier, Mr Sherpao regretted that the “blood of Pakhtoons” was being spilled in the tribal areas. He said it was the fourth time that the US had attacked Bajaur Agency and it was the second time that the “Predators” (drones) came and attacked.

He regretted that the US government had given no assurance that it would not do it again. “US drones are daily flying in tribal areas. It has become a daily routine and our airspace is being violated continuously,” he said, adding the planes had even come to Bannu and feared that “tomorrow they may come to Peshawar”.

Quoting from statements of some US officials, Mr Sherpao said Washington had expressed its no confidence over the ongoing talks with tribal elders.

“There is total confusion and no clear policy,” he said, adding that it seems there are two policies – one for domestic and the other for international consumption.

Mr Qureshi expressed surprise over Mr Sherpao’s statement that “Pakhtoons were being killed” in the province and tribal areas and that the US planes were violating Pakistan’s airspace. “Was it the first incident? Was it for the first time that US drones flew inside Pakistan? Was it the first missile attack? Who knows better than Mr Sherpao who had tackled this issue for five years as interior minister,” said the foreign minister.
The foreign minister said he would soon visit Afghanistan to discuss these violations with President Hamid Karzai and his counterpart.

QUESTION HOUR: Earlier during the question hour, the foreign minister told the National Assembly that during the fourth round of composite dialogue India had agreed to inform Pakistan about detained persons and their crimes. He said 518 Pakistanis were in Indian jails at present. But, he said, the Indian authorities acknowledged only that 147 Pakistani prisoners were languishing in Indian jails.

The National Assembly will meet again at 10am on Friday.

PPI adds: In response to a point of order, the prime minister said the government would ensure supply of wheat and flour to all parts of the country.

He said 80 per cent of the wheat procurement target in Sindh and Punjab had been achieved.

To another point of order, he said efforts were under way to overcome power shortage as soon as possible and added that 1,000MW electricity would be provided to Karachi to overcome the crisis.


Govt seeks opposition’s help in framing new anti-terror policy -DAWN - Top Stories; June 06, 2008


Amazing how the US reacts for their friends in dire need.

 

[maqsad]

The bombs came from 2 F-15's and a B1 bomber. Not from some "CIA predator"

It's one thing to be angry over the intrusion upon Pakistani sovereignty. Totally another to start making ridiculously convoluted conspiracies.

Bear in mind the YAnks always screw up like this. There was a old saying that during world war 2 when the Germans flew over the Allies would duck and hide. When the British flew over the Germans would hide. When the Americans flew over everyone would hide.

I'm not sure what you are saying, maybe I missed the latest posts but is the latest consensus that the USAF did not KNOW they were firing at pakistani border posts in a pakistani occcupied area?

I am making my "convoluted conspiracy" based upon a report that predators were seen flying around by eyewitnesses on the pakistani side of the border. It is a known fact that the CIA operates predators who drop bombs repeatedly in pakistani territory and have a specific track record of blowing up people and places first and THEN telling the pak military about it. And in fact there are rumors that the pak military has given CIA predators permission to not only intrude into pakistani airspace but to bomb targets in pakistan without permission. This is not theory or fabrication but verified fact, there are even two threads on the forum.

Besides that what exactly is convoluted about my hypothesis? Either the USAF got direct orders from the pentagon to kill pakistani soldiers or someone with low rank took matters into their own hands because they had an agenda of revenge or provocation or something. Either this was planned from the highest levels or it was a loose cannon. I just want to try and figure out exactly what happened, why can't I ask questions and pose hypotheses?

And nobody has answered what the Pakistani military was doing for three straight hours while those soldiers were being fired upon and killed. Is there no hotline available to communicate with NATO where they can pick up a phone to defuse a situation like this?