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NATO Attacks Pakistani Check-post

..... bloody imbecile. First of all, change your tone.....
You call others names, and then expect to be treated nicely?


..... But in the heat of the moment flares or firing in my mind are more than a sufficient warning not to deviate into ''friendly'' airspace....

If Pakistanis are in a gunship, and NATO soldiers are on the ground holding AK-47, perhaps in remote situations, it may (and I say may) be OK to fire warning shots.

However if the situation is reversed, then heck no.

If we don't have a gunship to defend the post, and don't have an F-16 in the air to protect the gunship, and we don't have an AWACS like plane to warn the F-16, then it is the work of a Jahil to suggest using AK-47 to fire on a gunship.

Be prepared. preparation is the best policy. If you understand the military history.

peace.
 
Ok both of you three, back off!

Not that we should try bringing down a chopper that can sustain 12.7/14.5mm direct hits with a 7.62 mm, but if someone (an ally in this case) violates your air space, you ought to warn him, in this case by the small arms. Had the trespasser not been a 'friend', things would have been different. How less the flight time had been, our fighter would have scrambled etc.

The issue is that the US MUST know that apart from drones (that too till the time we dont finally decide to bring them down) any other manned craft in the air or boots of the ground MUST not cross the Pak-Afg border. This is simple ABC. Mistakes do happen, as in this case some claim that the crossing was a mistake, ok, granted, but if it would become a repeated pattern, this would go ugly.

i would even dare to go an extent that may be the chopper deliberately ventured into our air space to 'test' our response. You know, testing, testing..?

Now the best thing would be that if the yanks want to operate near Pak-Afg border they should give a call to this side and let us know. i know that there have been incidents in the past and the ISI, CIA, ISAF and the 11 Corps had arrangements in place to contact each other in case of emergency, but ofcourse this in not down to a platoon/company level.

Anywaz, the bottom line should be, if any such trespassing takes place an action should/would be taken. They have already 'tuned' us to drones by gradually increasing the attacks since 2007, we cant allow the same in case of manned crafts and for ground forces. We were not at war (openly) with USSR when it invaded Afg, but we brought down their planes when they crossed on this side. We should not try aggravating the situation (by hostile actions, warning shots are not hostile, they are a w.a.r.n.i.n.g) but the concern should be to normalize it, but it shouldnt happen at the stack of our respect and by ridiculing us.
 
what kind of a joke is this, and how old are you?

did the crew and pilots in the Apache aircraft hear small arms fire hitting or ricocheting? No, they did not. Chances are, they didn't even hear the actual gunfire --just saw the muzzle flash.

the Pakistani personnel @ checkpost I am 2000% confident were in uniform, not wearing towels over their bodies and in sandals. That alone is enough indication.

warning shots do not constitute hostile action. What is it about that which you people don't understand?

"We know for sure the [Apache] helicopter was fired upon -- we got rounds inside the helicopter," Campbell said. "The helicopter returned fire and we are working through just exactly what happened... If [American soldiers] are taking effective fire, then by all means they have to take all measures to safeguard themselves and the other people around there."

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/108902-nato-attacks-pakistani-check-post-8.html#post1760812

May be they are lying... may be they are not. But if they indeed are, the copter can be summoned and checked for Pakistani bullets, right?
 
Ok both of you three, back off!

i would even dare to go an extent that may be the chopper deliberately ventured into our air space to 'test' our response. You know, testing, testing..?

.

What is there to test? The yanks seem to have already mastered getting in to and out of Pakistans air space with out being seen. They know that the first response to sighting an US aircraft seems to be shoot at it. Doesnt leave much to learn.
 
.....if someone ....violates your air space, you ought to warn him, in this case by the small arms. ....

I am sure Sir that you have heard about the following:

--- No one should bring a knife to a gun fight (old adage)

--- No one should bring AK-47 to warn/fight a gunship (new version)

And if we still insist on forgetting about these golden rules, we'll put our Pak army / FC jawans in the harms way.

We must give them proper protection / defense before expecting them to shoot at or close to a thingy. And if we cannot, then picking up the phone call (soon to be replaced with fb and twitter :) ) is the next best thing to issue warnings and protests.

Mind you Sir!

This approach is based on simple yet cold hard military calculations to keep our jawans safe, and not at all derived from any kind of mad jingoistic nationalism.

Peace.
 
What is there to test? ....

This is a valid point. NATO doesn't need to "test" our defense during the day near a border town with 100+ feet of incursion. Pakistan is no commie state that has a black curtain around its borders.

Heck if 2-bit pathetic Arrabobs can show up all the way from Egypt and kill and maim our precious jawans,
or hundreds of Taliblees khabees can converge our checkposts, then

what type of testing NATO has to do any way.

Peace.
 
If we don't have a gunship to defend the post, and don't have an F-16 in the air to protect the gunship, and we don't have an AWACS like plane to warn the F-16, then it is the work of a Jahil to suggest using AK-47 to fire on a gunship.

well all these methods and force multipliers are used in the event of war....we aren't at war (against the north atlantic treaty org)

we aren't even war-mongering after said breaches (of territory and whatever trust there is)

I already told you (repeatedly) that we were not firing on those choppers. Those were warning shots.

When a rattlesnake does his rattling away, is he inflicting harm on you? No....he's posturing and saying "I'm in my comfort zone.....you come closer, i'll strike you"

same applies here.....except given the bad "precedent" our dear leaders have set up for us, i fully agree that this could be a "testing testing 1,2,3" as suggested by Major Xeric.


if news headlines -- this fine masterpiece theatrical performance underway before us --are true -- we are both in some shakey waters. There is a degree of mutually shared mistrust --despite our sacrifices made. I don't think that as long as we have SOME leverage, they would want to engage in any major hostile actions against the PAKISTANI STATE and/or ENTITIES or PROPERTY of the state. But at times, unfortunately, one may feel otherwise given the previous incidents --- 2 or 3 I believe which were fatal encounters or errors or whatever you want to call them.


drones is one thing; but boots or manned violations would not be accepted. Warnings are warranted. And if there is any aggression against soldiers, then "effective action" measure would have to be employed. As you put it, as Chogy put it --when soldier faces a threat he takes a decisive, impulsive, and immediate action to eliminate this perceived threat.




Be prepared. preparation is the best policy. If you understand the military history.

Politically and militarily. And I cannot stress how important it is for civilians (regardless of political leanings or mental capacity) and military to be on the exact same page.

But now I'm happy since we have the fauj-historian to confirm this fact. :police:






 
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Here's what Americans are learning about this story-

"In Tuesday's incident, a Western military official said a NATO base in Afghanistan took intermittent fire from the Pakistani side of the border. Two helicopters flew into the area, and one fired across the border after twice taking fire from the Pakistani side, said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.

The Pakistani army said in a statement that its troops fired on the helicopter after it entered Pakistani airspace. Two of its soldiers were injured when the helicopter returned fire, it said."


Pakistan Protests After Clash With NATO Helicopters-AP May 17, 2011

So...a U.S. base comes under direct (small arms, recoiless rifles) and indirect fire (rockets, mortars) and we launch two Apaches. They may or may not have crossed into Pakistani airspace but twice take fire from a Pakistani military outpost.

General Campbell's comments elsewhere here suggest that fire was hardly warning shots-

"...We know for sure the [Apache] helicopter was fired upon -- we got rounds inside the helicopter," Campbell said. "The helicopter returned fire and we are working through just exactly what happened... If [American soldiers] are taking effective fire, then by all means they have to take all measures to safeguard themselves and the other people around there."

Congratulations on your prompt response to our possible incursion. If we didn't know that we were inside Pakistani airspace before your troops opened fire, then we certainly learned so afterwards.

Too bad insurgents were able to rain direct and indirect fire with impunity into a NATO (read "U.S.") base within Afghanistan from inside your own country. We certainly responded quickly. More quickly, evidently, than your own helicopters were prepared to do so.

Of course, had they done so it is very unlikely that the Pakistani aviators would have attacked the insurgents. Maybe that's why your attack helicopters didn't launch from Miran Shah until after we'd returned fire?

Odd how little Pakistanis care about their sovereignty when it comes to Afghan taliban fighters hiding behind Mama Pakistan's skirts. This skewed and selective sense of sovereign dignity is something that America has long since quit giving a ratz azz about.

Thanks.:usflag:
 
Here's what Americans are learning about this story-

"In Tuesday's incident, a Western military official said a NATO base in Afghanistan took intermittent fire from the Pakistani side of the border. Two helicopters flew into the area, and one fired across the border after twice taking fire from the Pakistani side, said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.

The Pakistani army said in a statement that its troops fired on the helicopter after it entered Pakistani airspace. Two of its soldiers were injured when the helicopter returned fire, it said."


Pakistan Protests After Clash With NATO Helicopters-AP May 17, 2011

So...a U.S. base comes under direct (small arms, recoiless rifles) and indirect fire (rockets, mortars) and we launch two Apaches. They may or may not have crossed into Pakistani airspace but twice take fire from a Pakistani military outpost.

General Campbell's comments elsewhere here suggest that fire was hardly warning shots-

"...We know for sure the [Apache] helicopter was fired upon -- we got rounds inside the helicopter," Campbell said. "The helicopter returned fire and we are working through just exactly what happened... If [American soldiers] are taking effective fire, then by all means they have to take all measures to safeguard themselves and the other people around there."

Congratulations on your prompt response to our possible incursion. If we didn't know that we were inside Pakistani airspace before your troops opened fire, then we certainly learned so afterwards.

Too bad insurgents were able to rain direct and indirect fire with impunity into a NATO (read "U.S.") base within Afghanistan from inside your own country. We certainly responded quickly. More quickly, evidently, than your own helicopters were prepared to do so.

Of course, had they done so it is very unlikely that the Pakistani aviators would have attacked the insurgents. Maybe that's why your attack helicopters didn't launch from Miran Shah until after we'd returned fire?

Odd how little Pakistanis care about their sovereignty when it comes to Afghan taliban fighters hiding behind Mama Pakistan's skirts. This skewed and selective sense of sovereign dignity is something that America has long since quit giving a ratz azz about.

Thanks.:usflag:

Pakistan is in serious danger of attack from ISAF or Indian Forces , Gilani already in China on emergency visit for Militery aid and support.

May Allah protect Pakistan .


China to provide 50 JF-17 warplanes to Pakistan

Posted by Agencies on May 18th, 2011 // No Comment

BEIJING: China will provide 50 JF-17 Thunder jet fighters to Pakistan on emergency basis to meet the requirements of the Pakistan Air Force for in the wake of threats facing the country.

China pledged to provide the warplanes during the visit of Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani on is on four-day visit to the country.

Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao assured his Pakistani counterpart of China’s “all-weather friendship” on Wednesday, at the start of a visit that.

“I wish to stress here that no matter what changes might take place in the international landscape, China and Pakistan will remain forever good neighbours, good friends, good partners and good brothers,” Wen told Gilani, according to a pool report.

“I do believe that this visit will give a strong boost to the friendship and cooperation between our two countries and take that friendship and cooperation to a new high,” he added, during a meeting in central Beijing’s Great Hall of the People.

“I would like to thank your Excellency for the warm welcome and hospitality accorded to me and my delegation since our arrival in China,” Gilani told Wen.
 
Here's what Americans are learning about this story-

"In Tuesday's incident, a Western military official said a NATO base in Afghanistan took intermittent fire from the Pakistani side of the border. Two helicopters flew into the area, and one fired across the border after twice taking fire from the Pakistani side, said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.

The Pakistani army said in a statement that its troops fired on the helicopter after it entered Pakistani airspace. Two of its soldiers were injured when the helicopter returned fire, it said."


Pakistan Protests After Clash With NATO Helicopters-AP May 17, 2011

So...a U.S. base comes under direct (small arms, recoiless rifles) and indirect fire (rockets, mortars) and we launch two Apaches. They may or may not have crossed into Pakistani airspace but twice take fire from a Pakistani military outpost.

General Campbell's comments elsewhere here suggest that fire was hardly warning shots-

"...We know for sure the [Apache] helicopter was fired upon -- we got rounds inside the helicopter," Campbell said. "The helicopter returned fire and we are working through just exactly what happened... If [American soldiers] are taking effective fire, then by all means they have to take all measures to safeguard themselves and the other people around there."

Congratulations on your prompt response to our possible incursion. If we didn't know that we were inside Pakistani airspace before your troops opened fire, then we certainly learned so afterwards.

Too bad insurgents were able to rain direct and indirect fire with impunity into a NATO (read "U.S.") base within Afghanistan from inside your own country. We certainly responded quickly. More quickly, evidently, than your own helicopters were prepared to do so.

Of course, had they done so it is very unlikely that the Pakistani aviators would have attacked the insurgents. Maybe that's why your attack helicopters didn't launch from Miran Shah until after we'd returned fire?

Odd how little Pakistanis care about their sovereignty when it comes to Afghan taliban fighters hiding behind Mama Pakistan's skirts. This skewed and selective sense of sovereign dignity is something that America has long since quit giving a ratz azz about.

Thanks.:usflag:

Just more US lies. US Forces entered Pakistani Airspace and the Pakistani Paramilitay in delf defence fired warning shots. Regarding the sovreign dignity Pakistan will make sure that it is protected at all costs against any invaders. It is time for US to start packing up for departure before its goes bankrupt. Do not count on ISAF to bail you out economically. China and Japan have already decreased buying US debt.
 
So...a U.S. base comes under direct (small arms, recoiless rifles) and indirect fire (rockets, mortars) and we launch two Apaches. They may or may not have crossed into Pakistani airspace but twice take fire from a Pakistani military outpost.

I could damn care less about what goes on in the Afghan side. That's your problem, buddy. Not my concern, until it starts to affect and cause detriment to my side.

you complain about your bases which you built in foreign territory thousands of miles away from home? Is that as legitimate a 'grievence' as mine --when you allow (read ''promote'') Afghan ragtag forces to fire on my checkposts, and my positions? You allow insurgents from that side to infilitrate my neck of the woods?

you people seem to think there are only 1 sides to a border. It is some strange membrane where only 1-sided movement takes place.

Don't fight a war, and then huff, puff moan and groan about being shot at in the first place. Even in the yet-to-be-concluded Iraq war theater -- did you fire on Syrian positions? Iranian?


May I also remind you that there have been SEVERAL NATO violations of Pakistan’s airspace. In the first week of October alone there were 3 such violations. Some people attribute this to plans to extend the Afghan war into Pakistan. Do you want this feeling to further resonate in the Pakistani STREET more than it already has?

Do you care? Maybe not. You ought to though.


(IT MATTERS)

"...We know for sure the [Apache] helicopter was fired upon -- we got rounds inside the helicopter," Campbell said. "The helicopter returned fire and we are working through just exactly what happened... If [American soldiers] are taking effective fire, then by all means they have to take all measures to safeguard themselves and the other people around there."

I was not present at the scene. I personally don't buy a word of it. But I have no evidence that could help me reach a definite and sound conclusion.

What I do know is that the pilots and crew flying these Apaches are not damn fools. They know what they are doing, and they should know where they are hovering above. If they need help on navigation and knowing when they are crossing red lines, then maybe they should assume desk jobs and administrative duties instead.

Congratulations on your prompt response to our possible incursion. If we didn't know that we were inside Pakistani airspace before your troops opened fire, then we certainly learned so afterwards.

They have to be prompt and alert at all times, even when they are fast asleep.

Too bad insurgents were able to rain direct and indirect fire with impunity into a NATO (read "U.S.") base within Afghanistan from inside your own country. We certainly responded quickly. More quickly, evidently, than your own helicopters were prepared to do so.

setting aside politics or military -- please understand that foreign occupation --especially more aggressive ones --in Afghanistan has never been received warmly

it aint no walk in the park. You knew what you signed up for. Since you are there and your boots are on the ground there, then please allot as much % of resources and manpower as we have to patrol (to the best of our ability, given our limited means) the border on the Afghan side.

Of course, had they done so it is very unlikely that the Pakistani aviators would have attacked the insurgents. Maybe that's why your attack helicopters didn't launch from Miran Shah until after we'd returned fire?

sounds to me that this sequence of events we are being told about all happened very very fast


Odd how little Pakistanis care about their sovereignty when it comes to Afghan taliban fighters hiding behind Mama Pakistan's skirts. This skewed and selective sense of sovereign dignity is something that

to a certain extent I definitely 'sympathize' with your point here.....more needs to be done. Army/FCs can't be everywhere at one time. But this is where better border enforcement, better enforcement at our main airports, better oversight by Interior Ministry, NADRA, etc etc. can make a difference.

you think I like the fact that these stateless Arabs, Uzbeks and Chechen lizard eaters are finding hiding spots in the rugged tribal areas?? Maybe one day I'll explain to you in graphic detail what happened in 2006 in Kurram --when 17 Al Qaeda suspects (all Arabs) escaped from Tora Bora and ended up across in Parachinar.

if i hadn't stuck around longer, i would have sworn that a street sweeper and an industrial strength hose would be needed to clean up the mess......it was the local tribes who alerted the local scouts (Kurram Militia) and they took action. And those AQ suspects were STRAPPED and ready to fight it out. (which is exactly what they did before they were crossed out one-by-one)

America has long since quit giving a ratz azz about.

and so it appears. . .

your 'not giving a ratz azz' is what is leading to your failure in Afghanistan....failure to win hearts and minds, failure to stop the drugs & weapons smuggling and proliferation, failure to stabilize the God-forsaken place.

You at least have the luxury of being able to pack up and go home.....we aint going anywhere, we are here to step on the shards of glass with our bare feet and have to clean up the mess on our own. But then again, that's no new news. :whistle:




always here to assist! :pakistan:
 
..we aren't at war (against the north atlantic treaty org).......

we were not firing on those choppers. Those were warning shots.

....

You have your logic and it is your right to follow the logic when it comes to YOUR life.

The problem is that jawans following your logic can easily get hurt or worse "killed". Do you understand this point?

or Not?

It is useless exercise to be crybaby when it comes to international issues. Either you have your say or keep the mouth shut. Otherwise one can get Saddamized (rhymes with an English term if you understand) in few days.

Just remember these little lessons and please do not advocate that our jawans should follow $stupid tribal ways of firing AK-47 at gunships.

Haven't you learned anything from the fate of Mullahtic Khabasat Mullah umer of Islamist Jahannum of Afghanistan?

Haven't you?


peace.
 
..... the Pakistani Paramilitay in delf defence fired warning shots. ....

Did you Sir read before submitting your post?

It clearly shows flawed logic of yours.

FYI! No one fires "warning shots" in "self-defense".
 

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