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NATO Attacks Pakistani Check-post

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Asim Aquil said:
I'm still here, but koi weird sa attack Defence.pk pe ho raha hai ke only I can't access it from my most common locations :)

This thing that you have said is not complete but even this no leader in the military or civilian leadership has been able to say.

The COAS should not just blow wind by saying "We will not allow another attack on Pakistan" only to face an attack the same or at most the next day, he should properly voice out this concern, he should lay it out that "Ok I'm going to shoot down the drones, are you, the nation behind me on this action? Are you the government behind me on this action? Who opposes the defending Pakistan, please come out and say so. Who supports the gutting of Pakistani soldiers at the hands of Nato, please come out and say so.

History has it, whenever the COAS has risen a battle cry in Pakistan, millions have stood behind him and they will still do so. I hardly have any fighting capabilities living a comfortable life in Dubai and can choose to ignore Pakistan, but even I will join in to fight for Pakistan in a justified fight for survival, for democracy and most of all, for Azaadi.

We have hit that stage, where we either fight for Pakistan or we perish. We either fight with our leaders, or we fight them. We are there. This is it. A true make or break point for all of us. All 160 million are about to perish into nothingness and that has got to have us all bothered, it just has to.

So step up Kayani sahab and see for yourself kaum saath deti hai ke nahi. I have previously been a big fan of Kayani, his performance in the fight against terror was amazing, Musharraf had lost Swat. But Swat leke Pakistan nahi gawana maine and I am a mixture of disappointment and pareshani to the recent behavior of Pakistani leaders.

Shoot down that drone already.
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i would have just thanked your post and passed, but then i something (the bold word up there) which caused me to reply.

See, you also placed a 'condition' before offering your support for a fight. i may be wrong in interpreting you but that's what i understood for now. So probably ,this exactly is the concern that the military wants to tackle before taking on the drones. People might see on which side they should be when the push comes to shove. i am not talking about the common man here, it is the liberal class, those who have a foot here and the other on a plane to the West, i am talking about the business class who would or might like to take sides as they would fear that attacking drones would hurt their bijinez and so on and so forth. This is not '47 or '65, things have changed, people ask more questions today, we have more beaks than a murder of crows today that would open up whenever their interests are harmed, even at the cost of integrity and sovereignty.

i respect your feelings and i have no doubt whatsoever that you would be available for this country when it needs you, i also have no doubt that a common Pakistan would always stand behind the forces (not juts the armed forces, but any other movement that would stand up for the survival of this country) and they even would march behind us if we are fighting Martians bare handed, but it's the pseudo liberals whom i worry about and probably the military also do the same.
 
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Chogy said:
Battle areas such as this one are horribly confused. There is no nice, clear, straight line on the ground.

Do you guys think there is a light in the Apache cockpit that illuminates and says "You are in Pakistan"?
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i am nop aviator, but then i know that a pilot knows where he is. What's with the GPS thingy of yours? Moreover, these were choppers not (high flying) drones or ultra fast fighters that couldnt locate landmarks and waypoints ON GROUND (though both of these can do it). Choppers ususally follow the terrain features, especially when flying in mountainous areas (i know this as i have flown at Siachen, FATA and Balochistan - the contoured part of our country), you chose valleys, channels, lanes etc to navigate if flying manually without GPS navigation. Yes i agree the Durand Line is difficult to spot on ground, but now after being in for more than 10 years in this fight, your Mavericks ought to know how does a military check post looks like (differs) from a terrorists' hide out. Terrorists dont construct (high, over ground) bunkers, fly a Pakistani flag and hang their laundry (a common mistake by Pakistani soldiers and by doing this they screw up the camouflage) outside, also the terrorists dont cook outside (ours do keeping, view the paucity of resources and not having the luxuries of MREs), lastly the huge pile of trash that usually line up near a military post (sorry we are also not that tidy) in indo-Pak scenario is also something which hardened terrorists dont do. So anyone with two eyes (though there's no requirement for a brain in this case) can see and differentiate between an established military post (which probably had been there since years and you guys gotta know that) and a militant's hideout who is on the run for most of his day hours time.
When taking fire, you shoot back. I'd expect nothing less from ANY soldiers, anywhere.
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Hmmm..
May be that's why you coined the terminology known as "Collateral Damage", right? Kill everything that moves? Anay wah thoki jao (dont sweat, it's not for you)?

i mean, a soldier (anywhere) must fight back, but while doing so he is also trained to make use of that thing up inside his head or else you may not need and enemy to defeat you, a trigger happy bastard among your rank and files is guud enough to do the job.

3) Pakistani soldiers fire on the helicopter.
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Because it crossed the border. You claimed that a soldier must fire back, i mean he should even do it if unclear of the enemy, but in our case our boys were amply clear of the 'enemy' - an Apache with US marking, violating our air space.

4) Helicopter returns fire.
Click to expand...
Now this is funny. Why did it deliberately aim off when targeting the post? News says that it fired 'away' from the post and the resultant land slide injured the soldiers (something like that), so if the Mavericks were kind enough to spare the 'instigators' and knew they were going to fire at 'friendly' forces, then why do so at the first place? Khuraak..?? (again this is not for you to translate)

Has anyone considered that militants or terrorists might execute this sort of thing (fire from INSIDE Pakistan) knowing full well it will likely expand into an international incident involving Pakistani and ISAF forces?
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Yes it has been considered. The same has been also mentioned by a few participating members on this thread. Now it is remote that a terrorist would be engaging ISAF with his small arm from across the border, i mean that would be stupid, so probably what you could say is that after hitting the ISAF the attacker might flee inside the Pakistani side, so in response you could chase him out, provided you dont cross the line, if still the porous border pains you, establish your own posts/get boots at the border for the love of God! We have covered our side of the border while going beyond our resources. You cant just keep hot pursuit-ing the terrorists into Pakistan!

I'm glad no one was killed, and I hope the injuries are minor, and a full recovery ensues. I'd chalk this sad episode to fog of war, chaos, confusion. It's not like Apaches are cruising the border intentionally looking for Pakistani guards to light up.
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Not more than how glad i am!
 
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Xeric said:
i am nop aviator, but then i know that a pilot knows where he is. What's with the GPS thingy of yours? Moreover, these were choppers not (high flying) drones or ultra fast fighters that couldnt locate landmarks and waypoints ON GROUND (though both of these can do it). Choppers ususally follow the terrain features, especially when flying in mountainous areas (i know this as i have flown at Siachen, FATA and Balochistan - the contoured part of our country), you chose valleys, channels, lanes etc to navigate if flying manually without GPS navigation. Yes i agree the Durand Line is difficult to spot on ground, but now after being in for more than 10 years in this fight, your Mavericks ought to know how does a military check post looks like (differs) from a terrorists' hide out. Terrorists dont construct (high, over ground) bunkers, fly a Pakistani flag and hang their laundry (a common mistake by Pakistani soldiers and by doing this they screw up the camouflage) outside, also the terrorists dont cook outside (ours do keeping, view the paucity of resources and not having the luxuries of MREs), lastly the huge pile of trash that usually line up near a military post (sorry we are also not that tidy) in indo-Pak scenario is also something which hardened terrorists dont do. So anyone with two eyes (though there's no requirement for a brain in this case) can see and differentiate between an established military post (which probably had been there since years and you guys gotta know that) and a militant's hideout who is on the run for most of his day hours time.

Hmmm..
May be that's why you coined the terminology known as "Collateral Damage", right? Kill everything that moves? Anay wah thoki jao (dont sweat, it's not for you)?
...
Click to expand...

Apache cockpit

apache.jpg


Two MFD's.. replaced by color ones in the newer upgrades..incorporate a nice color moving map display that shows the terrain, along with threats, borders .. and present location ..etc.
Now if the pilots in question were too busy looking ahead and not inside the cockpit.."chasing" guys on foot..
 
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Santro said:
Apache cockpit

apache.jpg


Two MFD's.. replaced by color ones in the newer upgrades..incorporate a nice color moving map display that shows the terrain, along with threats, borders .. and present location ..etc.
Now if the pilots in question were too busy looking ahead and not inside the cockpit.."chasing" guys on foot..
Click to expand...

i didnt bring this in deliberately, i know that even our Mi-17s have colored ones. Atleast the one i chootafayed in during flood relief ops had one.
 
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Chogy said:
Battle areas such as this one are horribly confused. There is no nice, clear, straight line on the ground.

Do you guys think there is a light in the Apache cockpit that illuminates and says "You are in Pakistan"? When taking fire, you shoot back. I'd expect nothing less from ANY soldiers, anywhere.

What we know now...

1) ISAF/NATO forces are taking fire, apparently from the Pakistan side of the border, from militants.

2) Helicopter goes to investigate.

3) Pakistani soldiers fire on the helicopter.

4) Helicopter returns fire.

Has anyone considered that militants or terrorists might execute this sort of thing (fire from INSIDE Pakistan) knowing full well it will likely expand into an international incident involving Pakistani and ISAF forces?

I'm glad no one was killed, and I hope the injuries are minor, and a full recovery ensues. I'd chalk this sad episode to fog of war, chaos, confusion. It's not like Apaches are cruising the border intentionally looking for Pakistani guards to light up.
Click to expand...

Spare us the concern.. If the fire were not shot.. next time you would have came with more helis.. we know your kind by now pretty good.. It was just to check the waters..
 
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Xeric said:
we have more beaks than a murder of crows today that would open up whenever their interests are harmed, even at the cost of integrity and sovereignty.

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Click to expand...

aint that the Goddam truth in pure powder form....

sad, but true. . . .
 
. . . . . .
if DFW means Dallas-Fort Worth Texas --- then i'll be there in early August as i have some planned meetings there.

got family in Arlington; cousins in college station. I often joke with my American friends, seperate from the rest of the states and declare Texas as America
 
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