Naswaristan

[Alpha1]

@Marshmallow bye.....

 

[KingMamba]

Dude neither did Omar (RA) participate in any wars after he became a Caliph - Whose going to govern if the Caliph is out there leading Armies ? Does that in anyway take away from Omar (RA) his valor or sense pf allegiance to Islam ?

I have no idea whether Abu Bakr (RA) ever killed someone or not though I'd find it hard to believe otherwise knowing that he participated in, as far as I know, every Ghazwa alongside the Prophet (PBUH) & I'm sure he wasn't there for sight-seeing.

As far as his succession is concerned - A Caliph was not supposed to be elected through an electoral system ! For that has come to us quite recently. Its the democratic principal that counts & Abu Bakar's nominee of choice was affirmed by the Muslims through Bait, including Ali (RA). And a fine...fine nominee Omar (RA) was.



There is nothing to suggest that Omar (RA) wasn't fair & just to all his subjects but many a statements by Non-Muslims themselves to substantiate that he was.

And my friend Firoze was a former Persian Soldier & he killed Omar (RA) because of his inability to accept how they were defeated & by whom !



Dude you've got to be really...really kidding me !

This is the same guy who was promised paradise by the Prophet (PBUH) himself & the guy who didn't leave a single opportunity unturned to give as much of his wealth as he could in the cause of Islam !

He appointed certain people to certain posts because it was his prerogative as the Caliph to do so & because he wanted trusted people to lead in sensitive provinces ! He did nothing wrong in this regard.

As far as reversing some of Omar (RA) 's policies - Yes..yes he did but it wasn't some sort of malicious intent, he just disagreed with Omar (RA) & thought that a different policy would be better - Nothing for him to apologize for !

Not to mention Osman (RA) was the man both the previous two Caliphs & the Prophet (PBUH) trusted as an able, fair & generous Muslim.

And I don't know how can you say assassinating him was fair-play by those despicable rebels; Ali (RA) should have punished them sternly & his failure to do so is what divided the Muslim Community further. He (Ali) was an exceptional Muslim & very...very brave but perhaps ill-suited to a Leadership role as is evident from many decisions he made during his Caliphate including being hoodwinked by Muwaiya !

I am sure they all have been granted paradise but that is not what we are talking about here, the discussion is who was a better leader of the 4 whereas you said Ali should not have even been one, I said he was just better than the first 3 although Umar like I said is the only one who comes close. Bro I never said Usman did anything maliciously I said he may not even have realized how his policies were detrimental and even you said yourself he did not know how to put his foot down! Yes the rebels were in the right, they made up the majority of Muslims, he chose not to step down or reverse his policies and so he was removed. Okay last question if it was about punishment for his family and not power then why did they usurp power and create a monarchy and never punished Usmans murderers anyway?

 

[Luftwaffe]

Yaraaa we're discussing a few historical personalities who happen to be Muslims & there succession & policies - We're not talking about Islam or its fundamentals per se !

It comes directly at Islam, even so the idiot is insulting 3 Caliphs, definitely he is bringing in the shia version not neutral version.

Let him know not to reply to me disgusting mentality of that person by now if those men were not in charge mamba would have been named satiya ramram.

 

[KingMamba]

Yaraaa we're discussing a few historical personalities who happen to be Muslims & there succession & policies - We're not talking about Islam or its fundamentals per se !

Exactly we are having historical discuss and have not brought up anything from Quran or Sunnah although you might have.

It is unbecoming of a Jr think tank to be trying to throw personal insults.

 

[Armstrong]

I am sure they all have been granted paradise but that is not what we are talking about here, the discussion is who was a better leader of the 4 whereas you said Ali should not have even been one, I said he was just better than the first 3 although Umar like I said is the only one who comes close. Bro I never said Usman did anything maliciously I said he may not even have realized how his policies were detrimental and even you said yourself he did not know how to put his foot down! Yes the rebels were in the right, they made up the majority of Muslims, he chose not to step down or reverse his policies and so he was removed. Okay last question if it was about punishment for his family and not power then why did they usurp power and create a monarchy and never punished Usmans murderers anyway?

How were the rebels in the right ? And who says that they made up majority of the Muslims ? And what possible reasoning could they have had to murder a perfectly good Caliph & no I can't find a single policy of his apart from baseless aspersion cast against him that point towards him being an ineffectual leader in need of removal ! He revolutionized & revitalized the Economy of the Muslim Empire, his softer stance as opposed to Omar (RA)'s more strict stance was a gilt-edged sword that earned him both enemies & friends - Thats what the 'inability to stomp his authority' bit was an allusion to; Ali (RA) was even worse at that & much....much more indecisive in taking the actions that needed to be taken. Had Ali (RA) punished the ones responsible the growing discontent amongst the Muslims would not have enabled opportunists like Muwaiya to do what he did.

I respect Ali (RA) as both a brave...brave warrior & an exceptional scholar of Islam, as vouched by the Prophet (PBUH) himself, but I have serious reservations about his Leadership as the Caliph of Islam ! And I would've wished that like Omar (RA) he too would have forbidden his sons not to take up the mantle of the Caliphate & risk it becoming a Father-and-Son thing that it ultimately did with Muwaiya making the same decision that hurt Islam very badly !

 

[muse]

Chal rein deii yaaar but are you really a Kashmiri Butt ?

Certainly Not - my uncle is though

 

[Armstrong]

Certainly Not - my uncle is though

Ahhhh thats a relief !

You're Uncle & I, then, belong to the same ethnic group !

 

[KingMamba]

How were the rebels in the right ? And who says that they made up majority of the Muslims ? And what possible reasoning could they have had to murder a perfectly good Caliph & no I can't find a single policy of his apart from baseless aspersion cast against him that point towards him being an ineffectual leader in need of removal ! He revolutionized & revitalized the Economy of the Muslim Empire, his softer stance as opposed to Omar (RA)'s more strict stance was a gilt-edged sword that earned him both enemies & friends - Thats what the 'inability to stomp his authority' bit was an allusion to; Ali (RA) was even worse at that & much....much more indecisive in taking the actions that needed to be taken. Had Ali (RA) punished the ones responsible the growing discontent amongst the Muslims would not have enabled opportunists like Muwaiya to do what he did.

I respect Ali (RA) as both a brave...brave warrior & an exceptional scholar of Islam, as vouched by the Prophet (PBUH) himself, but I have serious reservations about his Leadership as the Caliph of Islam ! And I would've wished that like Omar (RA) he too would have forbidden his sons not to take up the mantle of the Caliphate & risk it becoming a Father-and-Son thing that it ultimately did with Muwaiya making the same decision that hurt Islam very badly !

I am on my kindle, I will write you back tomorrow if you want. I cannot write too long messages on this thing.

Ahhhh thats a relief !

You're Uncle & I, then, belong to the same ethnic group !

I remember one of my friends was a butt in elementary school. People use to make fun of his last name.

 

[A.Rafay]

@muse Deaths by rain happen no one can stop them, but you should not say like that about our army!

 

[Armstrong]

I am on my kindle, I will write you back tomorrow if you want. I cannot write too long messages on this thing.

Forget it yaaar - Lets not talk about these things lest the MODs ban us !

I remember one of my friends was a butt in elementary school. People use to make fun of his last name.

I wonder why !

 

[HRK]

You've got to be kidding me !

Abu Bakar (RA) consolidated Islam & stopped all of them False Prophets from tearing Islam apart !

Omar (RA) took it a step further by Institutionalizing many Islamic Paradigms & was instrumental in increasing the Islamic Empire with many a Non-Muslims, including the Patriarch of Jerusalem, admiring Omar for his fairness & simplicity in stark contrast to the decadence & corruption of their previous Masters. And he was assassinated by that vermin Firoze because the Persian couldn't come to terms to how his Civilization was defeated by a bunch of bedouin out of Arabia...it had nothing to do with his treatment or mistreatment of new subjects.

Furthermore Usman (RA) was instrumental in institutionalizing Islamic Financial Paradigms & giving the Islamic Empire a strong footing to be a Islamic Welfare State. His only shortcoming was that he wasn't as strong of a personality as his two predecessors & couldn't stomp his authority as needed.

And no the Prophet (PBUH) did not appoint Ali (RA) as his successor or anything like it. Nor did he (Ali) clean up any mess but created a hell of a situation that saw the first Civil War of Islam due to his refusal to punish the assassins of Usman (RA).

I would've taken Ayesha (RA) as the Caliph in his stead but I dunno if she would have agreed to it or not !

But there was many Sahaba still left so I'm sure we could've found someone !

Agreed at all points but this highlighted point is bit debatable......

 

[Armstrong]

Agreed at all points but this highlighted point is bit debatable......

Koi baaat nahin Hammad Bhai aaap Butt nahin haiin isss liyeee aaap kaa aqeedaa puriii tarhaan dooruuust nahin haiii !

Just Joking !

 

[KingMamba]

Forget it yaaar - Lets not talk about these things lest the MODs ban us !



I wonder why !

Actually I would like to discuss this further but for now I will just say you should read what non Muslim scholars say about Usman and the circumstances that led to his death so that we avoid Sunni shia pov.

 

[Armstrong]

Actually I would like to discuss this further but for now I will just say you should read what non Muslim scholars say about Usman and the circumstances that led to his death so that we avoid Sunni shia pov.

I have !

In fact I can't remember the last Muslim Historian that I read; come to think of it barring the ones who've written exclusively on Pakistan I've never really read a Muslim Historian !

 

[KingMamba]

I have !

In fact I can't remember the last Muslim Historian that I read; come to think of it barring the ones who've written exclusively on Pakistan I've never really read a Muslim Historian !

Let me know who.

Also you never told me about Hindu pushups.
I am going to call it a night though, good night.
@HRK @Marshmallow later to you too.