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Muslims in Middle Kingdom and Contemporary China Celebrating Festivals and More

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That's a leading question; my point is that religion is not the source of growth in the 21st century, it will be the Asia-focused economic platforms:

  • Asian Development Bank
  • TPP
  • Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank
  • SCO
  • ASEAN
  • Eurasian Economic Community
  • China-centered Silk Road

Please note that religion has no role in these economic , political , strategic machinations.



Thanks.


@LeveragedBuyout , Sir, your intellectual conjecture would be much appreciated.


It was revealed to me last year that several of the PDF staff members regard me as an anti-Muslim bigot, so I would rather not comment in this thread. I am happy to discuss the political, economic, and strategic positioning of Asia in another thread that is free from the religious aspect.
 
Precisely. Even if we were to examine China now, tho the country is Communist, it has retained much of that authoritarian, centralized governmental platform that had characterized the Chinese Imperial System. The Emperor of China was the living breathing manifestation of 'The State'. King Louis XIV said it best when he said , "Le'estat est moi" (I AM the State). Well , there is no better epitome of that saying than the Emperor of China as He was literally the center , the centrifugal force of the entire Chinese Empire. From the way the Emperor talked, to his preferences in literature, his favorite poems, his food preferences, his musical preferences, his preference in consorts, his waking and waning cycles --- literally was reiterated throughout the land as perfection and were to be emulated by his subjects. The absolute power of the Emperor also enabled rapid mobilization of the national resources by His whim; be it the mobilization of the army, the tax magistry, the educational magistry, the economic magistry, war planners, etc cetera et cetera.

Any force that threatened this power dynamic was repressed and silenced with relative impunity. This concept of 'Son of Heaven' is somewhat similar to some South Asian doctrines such as the 'Deva Raja' or 'God King'. :)

I see fascinating differance between what I think we have in Pakistan and East Asia. "Le'estat est moi" may have been uttered by King Louis XIV but I see the real embodiment of this principle in China. This is quite to the contrary in Pakistan where I see each person being "I am the religion". The effects of that can be seen in Pakistan as differant interpretations clash with other interpretations and as each sides claims to be devine the result is no compromise.

I am rather excited at the future of increasing Chinese/Pak alignment because this deep contradiction between both cultures will need to resolved. Knowing how unforgiving and monolithic Chinese are will I hope lead to Pak adapting.

@LeveragedBuyout I think we could do with your thoughts on the subject. Bigot and freedom of expression are not the same.
 
It was revealed to me last year that several of the PDF staff members regard me as an anti-Muslim bigot, so I would rather not comment in this thread. I am happy to discuss the political, economic, and strategic positioning of Asia in another thread that is free from the religious aspect.
Well, that's PDF for you.
 
I see fascinating differance between what I think we have in Pakistan and East Asia. "Le'estat est moi" may have been uttered by King Louis XIV but I see the real embodiment of this principle in China. This is quite to the contrary in Pakistan where I see each person being "I am the religion". The effects of that can be seen in Pakistan as differant interpretations clash with other interpretations and as each sides claims to be devine the result is no compromise.

I am rather excited at the future of increasing Chinese/Pak alignment because this deep contradiction between both cultures will need to resolved. Knowing how unforgiving and monolithic Chinese is know going to be forced to adapt.


Very good point, Sir. And if i were to go back before the division of British India, or even before the concept of British India, there was even one example of a South Asian ruler who implemented "Le'estat est moi" , and that was the early Moghul Emperors such as The Emperors Babur, Akbar E Azam. These rulers ruled an empire that composed what is now Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, and parts of present day Burma as tribute states. The shear expanse of their empire and the rich diversity of their subjects required the early Moghul Emperors to adapt to the religious sensitivities of those who were governed. In fact, there is nothing more characterizing that the marriage of Moghul princes with Rajput princesses, the alliance between the Moghuls with the Rajputians early on. We saw the Muslim Emperor allied with Hindu princes who were the right hand of the Mughal Emperor.

I think that pragmatism and absolute power truly characterized the early years of the Mughal Empire. The Emperor Babur, for example, was not only fluent in Turkish, but also in Arabic, then also communicated with Rajputs in in their native language. He was, to me, the epitome of a Righteous Ruler.....
 
What kind of tradition actually that you suggest as Muslim is different in interpreting Islam as well. In the past, Muslim preacher are either entrepreneurs (prophet Muhammad/ Abu Bakr) or scientist. We need more part time Imam/ teacher for better Islam.

Baghdad during the golden period of Islam was pronounced as the house of wisdom, because the Muslim world at that particular period became a major center for intellectual giants, in poetry, philosophy, engineering, literature, sciences etc. The ink of a scholar is more holier than a blood of a martyr, therefore education on the real values of Islam is very important. Traditionally scholars of Islam followed a chain link, where knowledge was passed down from generation to generation in which the ulema for centuries have discussed all issues.

However in the modern era, I recognize the terrorists and many extremists imams as part-time Muslims, because they don't follow the traditional interpretation of Islam and make their own opinions without consulting the academic consensus on the subject.
 
Very good point, Sir. And if i were to go back before the division of British India, or even before the concept of British India, there was even one example of a South Asian ruler who implemented "Le'estat est moi" , and that was the early Moghul Emperors such as The Emperors Babur, Akbar E Azam. These rulers ruled an empire that composed what is now Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, and parts of present day Burma as tribute states. The shear expanse of their empire and the rich diversity of their subjects required the early Moghul Emperors to adapt to the religious sensitivities of those who were governed. In fact, there is nothing more characterizing that the marriage of Moghul princes with Rajput princesses, the alliance between the Moghuls with the Rajputians early on. We saw the Muslim Emperor allied with Hindu princes who were the right hand of the Mughal Emperor.

I think that pragmatism and absolute power truly characterized the early years of the Mughal Empire. The Emperor Babur, for example, was not only fluent in Turkish, but also in Arabic, then also communicated with Rajputs in in their native language. He was, to me, the epitome of a Righteous Ruler.....

No offense but certain factual discrepancies. I have no wish to get in a debate as the subject of Babur is a very sensitive one. All your points apply to Akbar
 
i'd like to post this video here. it's about a japanese idols visiting Istiqlal Mosque in Jakarta.

if japan can, why China can't?


it's not hurt for China to get more muslims. i remember back then when i'm still in indonesia, i can smoke and drink freely in public area during Ramadhan. the people doesn't care about it, the way i like it. China can into our examples and much easier into it IMO, because they have as many diversities as us.

i dunno about other islamic countries, but i doubt a non-muslim can enter any mosque. correct me if i'm wrong though.

What the heck.....:lol: Japanese idol comes to Istiqlal Mosque....... :lol:

Actually I dont really like current Istiqlal Mosque imam, he can even say something harsh and not tolerant for other Muslim who has different view on the beginning and end of Ramadhan. Only kid who can be in such emotional and not tolerant for something that is small in Islam.

As for non-practice Muslim and non-believer who smoke during Ramadhan, well it is their choice, why we should be bother, as long as they dont hurt people and society it is Okay for us.

Islam is actually a big honor for real Muslim. What I dislike is only a Muslim Ulama who make division among Muslim for small thing, they need to grow up. Make a small difference as big issue and become so emotional because of that.

In Quran, someone that make division in Muslim/Islam is considered as Musrik (worshiping another God beside ALLAH which is their party/ sect/ etc)
 
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@LeveragedBuyout I think we could do with your thoughts on the subject. Bigot and freedom of expression are not the same.

I appreciate the kind words, but I do think it's best if I stick to non-religious subjects. I'm sure our very capable Chinese colleagues (paging @Chinese-Dragon @Edison Chen @Shotgunner51 @Yizhi @Zsari @hans @Beast @beijingwalker ) can elaborate about the specific Chinese sensitivities toward religion (not just Islam) and the destructive role it has played in Chinese history (e.g. Taiping Rebellion). I do not believe that religion can contribute to Asia's development, but I do believe that religion can impede Asia's development. I'll leave it at that, but again, I'm not going to touch the "Islam in China" topic with a 10 foot pole. I'm happy to discuss the other subjects in a more "pure" thread, if you like.
 
The issue is not with Islam...Rather the image of Islamic nation is that is being presented or these Islamic nation is proud of...That is where the friction comes up..Here is my thoughts..

1- In India, we have hard core Islamist exists, in the Muslim dominated areas as well as Muslims are moderate in nature and make their own judgement of picking up the good things of their religion and leaving out the unwanted ones...This is same for my Hindu people too...In a cosmopolitan nation, no minority religion can exists in its purest version..If it is needed then it will be a blood bath....You can not have a Black Purda clad Burka people hovering on the multi cultural country like India....It might be valid for Pakistan or other Muslim nations where the nation are built upon the baisis of the religion...
If i see the people of Iran, they always deserve my respect...They are never hardcore or Fundamentalist like Arabs or Arab followers of South Asian nation...Rather they are always progressive and modern in spite of being Muslims too..

2- The second Muslim nation which I admire is Indonesia...My cousin married to Indonesian Muslim girl who later converted to Hinduism through ISKON...But agin, as my impression stands true, the majority of Indonesian Muslims are not so orthodox like that of Arab people inspired Muslim people....They do not kill people for any mistake by throwing stones...Often we see the way Arabs treat their people for blasphemy like killing with stones, not allowing women to drive ....and list goes on...It creates an impression that they belong to a different thought process altogether..


At the end of the day if Islam is represented by Arabs and their radical Sunni image, it is always creates different percpetion...But if it is perceived through people of Indonesia, Malaysia, Iran and to some extent native Syrian people too..It is a modern religion....
 
I just want to share my life experience on this, actually I had been debating with some Islam Extremist in Indonesia. The followers are actually just become religious at sudden with so few knowledge about what Islam is. I also have had some debate with some of their brain washer staff ( who know a lot about quran and Islam but failed to understand the knowledge about the importance of context in interpreting Quran and Hadith similar like ISIS and AQ members).

In Indonesia, they make underground society that want to topple current government. What I can say is that, they are just a literal thinking guys who has bad analyst skills and must not become the leader in Islamic world. Their force is so small in Indonesia and I believe that our intelligent has been watching this organisation and put many of their people in this organisation.


Indonesia history:

Darul Islam (meaning House of Islam [1]) or also well known as DI/TII (Indonesian: Darul Islam/Tentara Islam Indonesia, meansDarul Islam/Islamic Armed Forces of Indonesia) and NII (Indonesian: Negara Islam Indonesia, means Islamic State of Indonesia) is an Islamist group in Indonesia that aims for the establishment of an Islamic state of Indonesia. It was started in 1942 by a group of Muslim militias, coordinated by a charismatic radical Muslim politician, Sekarmadji Maridjan Kartosoewirjo. The group recognised only Shari'a as a valid source of law. The movement has produced splinters and offshoots that range from Jemaah Islamiyah to non-violent religious groups.


Establishment
During the Indonesian National Revolution, Kartosoewirjo founded his own band of freedom fighters in West Java, called Hizbullah and Sabilillah. As a protest toward the Renville Agreement signed by Indonesian leaders in 1948, which ceded West Java to theDutch, Kartosoewirjo proclaimed a Darul Islam (meaning "Islamic State") in West Java on August 7, 1949. Darul Islam did not disband itself after the transfer of sovereignty in 1949, resulting in a clash with the government of the Indonesian Republic. Rebels in South Sulawesi led by army deserter Abdul Kahar Muzakkar joined the Darul Islam Movement in 1951. On 20 September 1953,Daud Beureu'eh declared that Aceh was part of the Islamic State of Indonesia (Negara Islam Indonesia) under the leadership of Kartosoewirjo.

The movement flourished in the 1950s due to chronic instability within the central government during the Liberal Democracy Era. In 1957, it was estimated that the Darul Islam controlled one-third of West Java and more than 90% of South Sulawesi and Aceh provinces where the government only controlled the cities and towns. The movement had 15,000 armed guerillas operating under the banner of Tentara Islam Indonesia (Indonesian Islamic Army). In that year, Darul Islam agents unsuccessfully attempted to assassinate Sukarno by throwing grenades at him during a school function in Cikini, Central Jakarta.

Crackdown
Implementation of martial law in 1957, followed by declaration of Guided Democracy by Sukarno in 1959, marked the reversal of fortunes for Darul Islam. Smaller Darul Islam bands operating in Central Java under Amir Fatah was crushed by Colonel Ahmad Yani's Banteng Raiders in 1954–1957. Darul Islam forces in South Kalimantan under Ibnu Hadjar were forced to surrender in 1959. Amir Fatah was killed in 1954, while Ibnu Hadjar was eventually executed in 1962.

Three years of negotiations (1959–1962) led to a peace agreement that ended the conflict in Aceh, in which Aceh was restored as an autonomous province with special rights for Islamic law. Introduction of effective "fence-of-legs" method of encircling rebel mountain hideouts in 1959 succeeded in breaking the strong rebel grip over West Java's rural areas. On June 1962, Kartosoewirjo was captured on his hideout of Mount Geber near Garut. In captivity, Kartosoewirjo issued order for all his followers to surrender, after which he was quickly tried and executed. The last Darul Islam band in West Java surrendered on August 1962. Successive military operations also crushed the Darul Islam in South Sulawesi. On February 1965, its leader Kahar Muzakkar was killed in a military ambush in the interior of Southeast Sulawesi province, ending the Darul Islam insurgency in Indonesia.

However, despite the group being dismantled, underground networks have persisted. In the 1970s and 1980s, there were occurrences of 'Islamic' terrorism attributed to a group known as Komando Jihad. The leaders arrested from this group were found to be Darul Islam veterans.

Darul Islam (Indonesia) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On the other hand it is the force of rational Muslim in Indonesia

1. Wahhabism in Indonesia is different with in Middle East,

Muhammadiyah (Arabic: محمدية, followers of Muhammad. full name: Persyarikatan Muhammadiyah) is an Islamic organization inIndonesia. The organization was founded in 1912 by Ahmad Dahlan in the city of Yogyakarta as a reformist socioreligious movement, advocating ijtihad - individual interpretation of Qur'an and sunnah, as opposed to taqlid - the acceptance of the traditional interpretations propounded by the ulama.[1]

At the moment, Muhammadiyah is the second largest Islamic organization in Indonesia with 29 million members.[1] Although Muhammadiyah leaders and members are often actively involved in shaping the politics in Indonesia, Muhammadiyah is not a political party. It has devoted itself to social and educational activities.

Muhammadiyah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


2. Traditional Muslim in Indonesia/ old tradition group who prefers to earlier Islamic practice

Nahdlatul Ulama (also Nahdatul Ulama or NU) is a traditionalist Sunni Islam group in Indonesia.

The NU was established on January 31, 1926 as a reaction to the modernist Muhammadiyah organization. The NU is one of the largest independent Islamic organizations in the world. Some estimates of its membership range as high as 30 million, although it is hard to account for this number. NU acts as a charitable body, helping to fill in many of the shortcomings of the Indonesian government in society; it funds schools, hospitals, and organizes communities or kampungs into more coherent groups in order to help combat poverty.

Nahdlatul Ulama - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I like Madinah Charter (Prophet Muhammad time) in which Shariah is conducted in a good way. I believe Indonesian ideology which is Pancasila has similar content like Madinah Charter.

On the other hand Islamist extremist wants to have private things like prayer and wearing hijab to become a state obligation.........:disagree: ............Something that even is not done during our prophet rule in Makkah and Madinah.

What the heck, do they want to make an Islamic State as another GOD because Muslim conduct a pray or wear hijab because of being afraid to a State ....????

On the other hand, non-private Islamic Shariah can always become a positive rule in indonesia like Anti Porne law, which has become positive law in here, as long as our parliament member approve it, it doesn't contradict our democratic system.

PS: I said it "porne" to avoid automatic censorship in this site.


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The Charter of Medina (Arabic: صحيفة المدينة‎, Ṣaḥīfat al-Madīnah; or: ميثاق المدينة, Mīthāq al-Madīnah), also known as the Constitution of Medina (دستور المدينة, Dastūr al-Madīnah), was drafted by the Islamic prophet Muhammad shortly after his arrival at Medina (or Yathrib) in 622 CE[1] (or 1 AH), following the Hijra from Mecca. The charter constituted an agreement between the various Muslim (Muhajirun and Ansar), Jewish, pagan, and Christian groups in Medina, declaring them to constitute ummah wāḥidah (أمة واحدة, "one nation"), and formed the basis of a multi-religious Islamic state in Medina.[2][3][4]

The constitution was created to end the bitter intertribal fighting between the rival clans of Banu Aws and Banu Khazraj in Medina,[5] and to maintain peace and cooperation among all Medinan groups for fashioning them into a social unity. It ensured freedom of religious beliefs and practices for all citizens. It assured that representatives of all parties, Muslim or non-Muslim, should be present when consultation occurs or in cases of negotiation with foreign states, and that no one should go to war before consulting the Prophet. It also established the security of women, a tax system for supporting the community in times of conflict, and a judicial system for resolving disputes. It declared the role of Medina as a ḥaram (حرم, "sacred place"), where no weapons can be carried and no blood spilled.

Constitution of Medina - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Your explanation on the eunuchs is illogical and factually incorrect, because since the Han dynasty the imperial palace was often controlled and manipulated by the eunuchs who ran the operational affairs of the court. They vied for power with military leaders, scholar-bureaucrats and were extremely close to the Emperor's concubines. Therefore, prisoners of war or even moderate criminals would have no chance to be considered as candidates to work within the imperial palace. Henceforth your assumption is incorrect from my prospective. In addition, most eunuch's were chosen from poor families at a very young age and this is well documented in history with the example of Zheng He, the infamous admiral from the Ming Dynasty who charted his vessels across the globe. Most eunuch's were prone to preserve there dismembered organs in a jar and the survival rate from the operation was very slim, henceforth this was another reason why they were chosen at a relatively young age. I have lived and worked in China and most of my best friends are Chinese, therefore please don't categorize me as a typically foreigner who has no knowledge of your history or civilization.

Eunuch's were sold to the Ottoman empire from Africa specifically from Ethiopia, because its forbidden in Islam to emasculate a man. Furthermore, the Ottoman empire does not represent Islam as a religion and many of their practices would not be accepted during the era of the rightly guided Caliphates. Concubines which were guarded by the imperial eunuch's in the Ottoman court, however were usually prisoners of war from the Slavic regions.

Furthermore, the preference of food consumption by an individual is different and you cannot speak on the behalf of the 1.3 billion population of China. I have a very good friend from Kunming who is Han Chinese and his mother follows Buddhism. She has been a vegetarian for over 20 years and there are many individuals like her in China. Therefore, the idea of the Chinese population in refusing Islam, because of pork sounds obnoxious and to be frank illogical. Religion is a private matter and it should be nobodies business to interfere. Actually the Hindus of Kerala eat beef:)

Zhenghe was a Muslim prisoner of war from Yunnan, which was ruled by the Mongols and then taken back by the Ming. In fact, he is one of the most famous examples of a top eunuch who came from a prisoner of war background.

Also, your explanation of the Ottoman eunuchs explains the black eunuchs, but what of the white eunuchs?

Kapi Agha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I just have to say, that while Islam is traditional to China, extremism is not.
 
You can not have a Black Purda clad Burka people hovering on the multi cultural country like India
may be you haven't visited parts of Lucknow , Hyderabad , old delhi , parts of chennai , even Kolkata. There are indeed black fully covered clad women whom eyes also are covered. Even in parts of Bhubaneswar i have seen fully covered people. If you say that it is anomaly even in Pakistan many women strictly doesn't follow dress code stipulated by some mullah.
 
In Indonesia, they make underground society that want to topple current government. What I can say is that, they are just a literal thinking guys who has bad analyst skills and must not become the leader in Islamic world. Their force is so small in Indonesia and I believe that our intelligent has been watching this organisation and put many of their people in this organisation.

During the golden period of Islam, one of the greatest and flourishing attributes of that era was that rebellion and anarchy by citizens against the state was virtually non-existent. This is because the esteemed ulema established the idea from the Hadith and the Quran that Darul Islam (House of Islam) did not permit the public to take measures into their own hands and support rebellion action against Muslim rulers even if they were unjust because it causes civil strife. Only within the government can revolution proceed forward to eliminate the tyrant rulers, which include the (Army, Politicians, Bureaucrats) because the transition is much more smoother. This is one of the reasons why the FSA and all the other groups in Syria were wrong in trying to topple Assad, because even though he was a dictator Syria had law and order. The rebellious action of a few groups have destroyed the society of Syria. This is what I referred to as traditional Islam, which is being replaced by these extremists. Its funny how this organization has called its self the House of Islam, but fails to follow its basic tenants. Brother Islam is very difficult to understand, there was a good reason why scholars in the golden era of Islam had to mandatory study under a guided teacher for over 15-20 years to become a qualified imam or expert on a particular subject. You must educate these individuals, because most of them are manipulated by extremists.
 
may be you haven't visited parts of Lucknow , Hyderabad , old delhi , parts of chennai , even Kolkata. There are indeed black fully covered clad women whom eyes also are covered. Even in parts of Bhubaneswar i have seen fully covered people. If you say that it is anomaly even in Pakistan many women strictly doesn't follow dress code stipulated by some mullah.

It is in those areas where most of these poor and illeterate Muslim people stays in a ghetto....
 
It is in those areas where most of these poor and illeterate Muslim people stays in a ghetto....

Poverty and illiteracy does not equate to Muslims in India. Forget about "ghetto" there are entire tracts of India with dirt poor people often Dalit or coming under the classification of tribals numbering in 10s of millions. I find it rather bloody irritating when Indian's try to brush all their poverty and backwarness at the foot of the "Muslims".

The biggest and most backward group in India is without a doubt the untouchables or Dalits. Some of them have sought release from clutches of restrictive Hinduism and converted to Christianity or Islam.

I am pretty confident that as Pak China strategic relationship builds up the religious extremists on Pakistan will poise a challange and will have to be controlled or they will derail Pak/China relationship.

Only a secular Pakistan can true partner of China.

Dalit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Going back to the OP the title is pathetic and much as I like the chap who opened this thread I find him touch simplistic in his outlook. For a start in a country of 1,400 million the Muslim effect is negligible. Even if there were 20 million hardcore Muslims that would be about 1.4% of the population. That is a drop in Pacific Ocean.

However my interest in this matter is entirely unrelated to the Uighuer Muslims or if there is connection it is indirect. In the last 50 years in Pakistan right wing religious orthodoxy has gained ground to the point where now it is now dominant. Cold War and petrodollars have had a lot to do with the rise of religious right. Today I am interested in the way external forces blowing from China might help to push back the religious lobby inside Pakistan. In a sense much as external forces in the past helped the Mullah now I am hoping external forces might help to put the Mullah back in the bottle.

Only a secular Pakistan can be a true partner to China.
 
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