Muslims in Europe face discrimination: Amnesty

[Developereo]

Don't get me wrong. We all accept that Western countries have a far better domestic record of human rights than the rest of the world, but the point of the AI report is that the West is letting the fear and hysteria erode its own ideals.

The question is not whether Western countries are better than some other country, but whether they are remaining true to the ideals they advertise.

 

[Audio]

How can you wear a "miniscule" scarf whose whole purpose is to cover your head?

Wear something else as an expression of your religion.

This issue is a very unthankful one, because on one hand you have the right to wear the scarf in the other you have the right to perceive the scarf as a symbol of male dominance.

Scarf is unmistakenably a symbol of religion and as such harms the division of religion and state when seen in public places.
By miniscule i meant wearing a crescent on a necklace as a sign of faith. This would be a non issue if the scarf/veil would not be so out of place in Europe. It's just too big, simply put.

Also the opinion of the majority of the French people supported the ban in public.

The question is not whether Western countries are better than some other country, but whether they are remaining true to the ideals they advertise.

A lot of the opposition came from the women. Basically angry, educated, agenda driven women. Good luck reasoning with them.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

So you are saying these images below are of Muslim women advertising "gang colors"?

My point is that when you see a woman with a headscarf, just see a woman with a headscarf. There's no need to read some ulterior agenda into it.

Wow, how terrifying.

Personally, I have always identified "headscarves" as something associated with European women.

Sound of Music and all that.

 

[Hussein]

Also the opinion of the majority of the French people supported the ban in public.

developereo is saying about scarf
the French people are against the burqa but not against the scarf !

 

[Audio]

developereo is saying about scarf
the French people are against the burqa but not against the scarf !

French scarf ban comes into force-BBC News

HEADSCARF BAN
Ban proposed in December 2003 and backed by parliament in March
Came into effect at start of new school year on 2 September
Lays down that "conspicuous" religious items may not be worn in schools
Forbidden items will include Muslim headscarf, Sikh turbans, Jewish skullcap and large Christian crucifixes.

 

[Moorkh]

How can you wear a "miniscule" scarf whose whole purpose is to cover your head?



So you are saying these images below are of Muslim women advertising "gang colors"?

My point is that when you see a woman with a headscarf, just see a woman with a headscarf. There's no need to read some ulterior agenda into it.

a scarf worn for religious/cultural reasons is different than the scarves you have shown here. infact the first is worn by a hollywood actress in a hollywood movie. nothing islamic about the scarf here. the second is a traditional scarf again worn commonly in east europe, again without any religious undertones.

the ban against face veils and religious symbols doesnt concern either of the 2 scarves. scarves by themselves are not seen in a negative light. several women in the west themselves wear scarves to keep themselves warm or to look good.

however when a woman wears a niqab or an abaya or a chadar, those are not scarves worn for aesthetic reasons but for religious reasons. the motivation makes the two very different from each other. when a woman wears the second variety of scarves, she is declaring that she is a muslim/arab woman. so in effect the scarves are again acting like 'gang colours', differentiating the ones who belong to that group from the ones who dont.

 

[Hussein]

French scarf ban comes into force-BBC News

wow this is not fobidden in public: even in public state places you can go to post office, national companies wiht scarf
it is forbidden for girls in national public schools (because of the laic system : other signs are forbidden too) and when you apply for a few jobs too . girls with scarf go private schools (most of them being catholic schools)

but in public place this is burqa which is forbidden

==============================================

let's stop derail this thread
amnesty is giving informations about something we already know for a time
they are many associations which were working on it , i quoted the association in a post before

but of course the discrimination is very low compared to other discriminations in some other countries in the world: in USA or Canada of course the situation is better , but discrimination against some ethnic especially is terribly hard in some countries: shias in Bahrain , christians in many countries , nomads vs others in many countries, black people in Mauritania, and you know how much long the list is

 

[Developereo]

Wear something else as an expression of your religion.

As I wrote, the scarf is a symbol of modesty to hide the hair and head. Even Western women wear a scarf for that reason, especially East European women.

How can you do so "inconspicuously"?

This issue is a very unthankful one, because on one hand you have the right to wear the scarf in the other you have the right to perceive the scarf as a symbol of male dominance.

Scarf is unmistakenably a symbol of religion and as such harms the division of religion and state when seen in public places.
By miniscule i meant wearing a crescent on a necklace as a sign of faith.

East (and some West) European women have been wearing a headscarf for ages. The third picture above is a traditional Russian scarf. When Western women wear a headscarf, it is OK, but when a Muslim woman does so, it is not. People make up all sorts of ulterior subtext under the headscarf.

This would be a non issue if the scarf/veil would not be so out of place in Europe. It's just too big, simply put.

The second picture with the scarf up there is Queen Elizabeth of England. She is the embodiment of British culture!

You are telling us that the Queen of England is "out of place" in Western culture???

a scarf worn for religious/cultural reasons is different than the scarves you have shown here. infact the first is worn by a hollywood actress in a hollywood movie. nothing islamic about the scarf here. the second is a traditional scarf again worn commonly in east europe, again without any religious undertones.

So, when Western women wear a headscarf as a measure of modesty, that's OK. But when Muslim women wear one they are

a) forced by men
b) advertising Islam

the ban against face veils and religious symbols doesnt concern either of the 2 scarves. scarves by themselves are not seen in a negative light. several women in the west themselves wear scarves to keep themselves warm or to look good.

Precisely my point. Simple headscarves are not "alien" at all; they are very common in Eastern Europe, as you noted, and even amongst older women in Western Europe. They are a sign of modesty. No need to read chapter and verse into a simple scarf.

however when a woman wears a niqab or an abaya or a chadar, those are not scarves worn for aesthetic reasons but for religious reasons.

We (and the AI article) are talking about simple head scarves, not the full face coverings.

 

[Audio]

^^

Scarf worn to warm yourself or as a fashion statement (one in a hundred women wears a scarf-it is passe) differs from the scarf worn because of religious motives. Those motives are out of place.
And yes, forcing of men and advertising religion at school does come into play. But that extends to all religions.

Also to you it is a symbol of modesty to someone it might be something else. On the ground it is what it is perceived to be. And the image ain't good.

 

[JayAtl]

Again, you hide your ignorance behind a rant. You don't know the fine print in the French law, so you make a speech about rights demanded by religion. I already told you to educate yourself, but we know people like you prefer to live in ignorance since facts would challenge their preconceived beliefs.

No one is demanding special rights -- the Muslims are asking for equal rights regardless of religion.

Your predisposition to run off into other countries half a world away only proves you are incapable of addressing the issue at hand, which is a comparison of the rights of Muslim Europeans v/s non-Muslim Europeans.

If you have something to say on the topic, go ahead, otherwise I am sure you will continue your silly off-topic rants devoid of content on subject.

P.S. The comment about slavery was not meant to single out whites but to point out the absurdity of your off-topic remarks. See my response to CloakedVessel for an explanation.



I see you switched to one of your other IDs, JayAtl.

There you go again with the ID paranoia. I am currently in pasedema CA on a business trip, go ask the mod to check the two ip's.

You keep claiming I'm ignorant, yet you and your ilk are the one's who have been shown to be playing the victim hood card. You point to special by lines in French laws and yet show no proof of it's Muslim only law. You keep,like your extremist pals, trying to ask for special considerations and yet are blind to see why the rest object. I don't need to educate myself , you need to stop your radical agenda in other countries or step back into the 16th century mindset countries you guys came from. Stop giving immigrants a bad name. Your examples are rubbished because of the sheer lack of real thought behind them and once shown to be as such, you try a new twist or some absurd revisionism on it to try to salvage the ridiculous.

That is like the scarf comment You purposefully obfuscate- it is a school related law that you choose to ignore. We see heads of state wearing caps and hats and make up and jewelery too, but that does not mean it is allowed to be worn in schools. There is a uniform code of conduct for all. Besides as I said earlier laws are not 100 proof , sometimes unintended things get pulled into it. This happens to all not just Muslims. In the US many sub divisions have by laws that you cannot stick any signs on your yard or structures - and when a family puts a pole with a US flag in their front yard it is considered breaking the law. That does not make us unamerican ... It's just something's get pulled into laws unintentionally .

They give you a handbook on how to claim off topic when loosing an argument? ... . Questioning your motives is not off topic. As I said you never said a word about Chinese not allowing any muslim under 18 to see or visit inside a mosque but suddenly are outraged over secular and secrurity related laws.

 

[Moorkh]

As I wrote, the scarf is a symbol of modesty to hide the hair and head. Even Western women wear a scarf for that reason, especially East European women.

the scarves serve practical purposes inthose cases. modesty doesnt figure among them.

How can you do so "inconspicuously"?

the very point is to remove religion from the public sphere and push it back behind closed doors where it belongs

East (and some West) European women have been wearing a headscarf for ages. The third picture above is a traditional Russian scarf. When Western women wear a headscarf, it is OK, but when a Muslim woman does so, it is not. People make up all sorts of ulterior subtext under the headscarf.

as mentioned above, the difference is about religion. one is motivated to look good or to stay warm. the latter has religious motivations, something not acceptable to the french brand of secularism.

So, when Western women wear a headscarf as a measure of modesty, that's OK. But when Muslim women wear one they are

a) forced by men
b) advertising Islam

read above. the western scarves have nothing to do with modesty

Precisely my point. Simple headscarves are not "alien" at all; they are very common in Eastern Europe, as you noted, and even amongst older women in Western Europe. They are a sign of modesty. No need to read chapter and verse into a simple scarf.

We (and the AI article) are talking about simple head scarves, not the full face coverings.

head scarves worn in the west dont have religious connotations or have anything to do with modesty. religious connotations are what the west seems to be against.

 

[Zabaniyah]

Seems like secularism has very much become a religion itself

 

[Hussein]

Seems like secularism has very much become a religion itself

with their fanatics

 

[silko]

in France, 5-6 millions of Muslims according the Interior Ministry
according to the Interior Ministry : 300 women wearing burqa

a simple calculation : 0.01% of the Muslim women wear burqa

wow... can you give me a link regarding this, would be nice to show to some right wing extreme Norwegians!

Dude, they don't get it.

You have to work, to compete! They think as soon as you are in Europe milk and honey come rolling down to every lazy bastard.

I'm 31, with a decent job, yet i decided to learn HTML/CSS/MySQL/animation from scratch so i can be more competitive and in a position for a raise.
Stuff like that doesn't make sense to them. They think they are entitled to some social privileges because other people work their asses off for providing the said privileges.

i can say the other way around too... i am currently 17 and have a part time job. if i went to a Norwegian far right idiot. and asked him if he has a job, the answer in most cases would be NO. why... because of his attitude. most of theese right wing extremists have a extremely annoying attitude against anyone that does not agree with them. and that makes them unwanted in the working place.

and he would blame me and many other Muslims for the problems in the society, and blame me because he doesn't have a job. and just so you know, i was offered the job. i didn't apply.

i will agree that some of the Somalians here do make what you typed. they milk the social service extremely. make as many kids as possible, divorce on paper, but in reality still live togheter (religious marriage) and make money out of it. i had dozens of those in the block i lived in previously.

but saying Muslims just sitt in their butt and expect job is laughable. i know a lot of muslims that has studied, but didn't get job either because of his "ethnicity" for example a 3rd generation Afghani can't get the job because some asylant Afghani raped a Norwegian woman.

nobody here with their mind think they have a privilege, there is two types here. either the ones that tries to get a good education and become something good, or the one that tries to milk the social services the state offers them.

in most cases the Pakistanis, Turks, Albanians, Arabs etc. that try to do the first. get a good education and job, it is the somalians that in most cases makes tries to go for the second option.

About SOS racism, they did a good job: to proove that this was discrimination against foreigners, especially black and muslim names, what they do:
they send a white guy with exactly the same resume than a black guy or lets say someone named Mohammed ... the treatment of the resume are often different in the past
because of their work now it changes more and more

i am not going to talk that much about the organization, we have the same one in Norway to.

but the job application is pretty much the same here to. whenever a name like "Ahmed, Ali, Hassan" shows up they in most cases throw it in the trash without reading, but when something like "john, kjetil, espen" something like ethnich Norwegian names show up they start reading.

i had a talk with a politican who suggested a different way of job aplication where u dont use your name but rather a number. that will make it harder for the job giver to decide in the innitial part wheter he will hire you or not.

 

[Hussein]

wow... can you give me a link regarding this, would be nice to show to some right wing extreme Norwegians!

Islam en France - Wikipédia

Le ministère de l'Intérieur chargé des cultes a indiqué en 2010 qu'il y a entre 5 et 6 millions de musulmans en France

Ministry of Interior, which is in charge of religious affairs [check, count], indicated that they are between 5 and 6 millions Muslims in France.

In the time of the law about burqa : liberation is one of the most famous newspaper here:
Burqa: «Une loi, ce serait un gros pilon pour écraser une mouche» - Libération

Le nombre de femmes portant le voile intégral en France, évalué par les services du ministère de l'Intérieur à 367,

The number of women wearing burqa in France , number given by Ministry of Interior, is 367