Muslims in Europe face discrimination: Amnesty

[Hussein]

If your description is completely honest(the underlined part creates doubt)......

What is not honest in this part? could you say me?

Because i am Muslim i should speak about Jews?
I have a lot of respect for this religion.

About the associations since you say i am unhonest:

http://www.licra.org/
this is a very good association: they already exist during the world war II and they paid high price because of the fascists.

there is as well UEJF who is doing this job (Jew students association)

They often work with SOS racism, created by Muslim young guys and Jew young guys in the socialist president Mitterand time

About SOS racism, they did a good job: to proove that this was discrimination against foreigners, especially black and muslim names, what they do:
they send a white guy with exactly the same resume than a black guy or lets say someone named Mohammed ... the treatment of the resume are often different in the past
because of their work now it changes more and more

 

[Developereo]

Good lord man.

Again, you hide your ignorance behind a rant. You don't know the fine print in the French law, so you make a speech about rights demanded by religion. I already told you to educate yourself, but we know people like you prefer to live in ignorance since facts would challenge their preconceived beliefs.

No one is demanding special rights -- the Muslims are asking for equal rights regardless of religion.

Your predisposition to run off into other countries half a world away only proves you are incapable of addressing the issue at hand, which is a comparison of the rights of Muslim Europeans v/s non-Muslim Europeans.

If you have something to say on the topic, go ahead, otherwise I am sure you will continue your silly off-topic rants devoid of content on subject.

P.S. The comment about slavery was not meant to single out whites but to point out the absurdity of your off-topic remarks. See my response to CloakedVessel for an explanation.

Uh, Developeon at his "the world is unjust to Muslims charade" again.



Already pointing out false ID's and sporting weak logic...so predictable

I see you switched to one of your other IDs, JayAtl.

 

[Audio]

"not so few" is your opinion
i move inside the France territory and i don't see any problem with the Muslim population
but in the poor parts of the big city, where you can see black population mostly christian, arab mostly muslim, white bad guys mostly atheist . why there is an obsession about muslim?

Because other's don't blow things up or scream death to infidels, chase little girls down alleys only to shoot them, dont demand extremist laws etc... to put it very very bluntly.

And it is casting a negative portrait on the whole.

Also if someone is really good at what he does, he gets recruited by corporations, businesses almost instantly, regardless of his religion, race, color.
The problem is being really good.

 

[anonymus]

What is not honest in this part? could you say me?

Your assertion that Jew organisation against discrimination is a fascist party.I don't have idea about this organisation but this form of Jew bashing fits into the culture of PDF rather than reality.

can i ask you one question :
for exemple there is a famous association in France , respected by all politicians except fascist parti FN, the Jew organisation against discrimination : do you think these guys should leave France because when there is a problem they speak about it?

 

[A1Kaid]

It seems Europeans are less supportive of diversity and considering they have a different mentality about things many of them are less tolerant of minorities compared to North Americans. So it's understandable why many of them are discriminatory towards racial, religious, and cultural minorities. In Europe there is a growing right-wing movement and trend in which right-wing parties are becoming mainstream even in countries like Holland, right-winger Geert Wilders is gaining traction. Europeans feel that the minorities are not "assimilating" therefore the resentment, perhaps there is some validity to that when you see ethnic enclaves throughout European countries the point appears to be valid. Though it is also true many of the immigrant families have children that are born in their adopted home countries and the children are better assimilated than the parents, so perhaps progress is being made.

I think it may be best for many immigrant families residing in Europe, particularly in France, Holland, UK, and Germany, to return home. Besides, EU is under major economic duress. During times of economic troubles politicians tend to use minority groups as scape goats.

Part of the problem besides the lack of assimilation which does have some validity on a case by case but the other part is simply European public bigotry, there's simply a large number of them in the European population; for reasons we can discuss forever.

 

[Hussein]

Your assertion that Jew organisation against discrimination is a fascist party.I don't have idea about this organisation but this form of Jew bashing fits into the culture of PDF rather than reality.

can you stop to change the words of what i say in this forum?
why you use your fantasm to change my words?

ok i repeat what i said so you can understand :
i say there is an association that is respected by everyone
only one parti hates this association. the parti who hates this association is the fascist parti
i never said that the association was fascist !!!
lol

 

[Developereo]

No, I'm a bigot because I don't agree with the report. I do not share your hostile view, that's why I'm a bigot and a racist, and see European Muslims as inferior blablabla.

I will give you a simple analogy to explain why I take strong exception to off-topic diversions into other countries or the "assimilation" canard.

Take the issue of discrimination against blacks in the US, for example. Reasonable people can debate the facts, but no reasonable person is going to start talking about African countries as a way to deflect from the topic. Few people would talk about alleged crime statistics as a way to indirectly justify the discrimination. There will be some people who might try these tactics, but they would be soundly called as racists and bigots.

Can you explain to me why this situation is different when we discuss discrimination against Muslims born in the West or Western converts?

I question the report on its merits, and have trouble accepting it as a properly founded report, clearly opposing the ground reality. I do not recognize the picture of wide scale mistreatment of European Muslims as the report seem to suggest. However, I cannot stress enough, since you're repeatedly accusing me of bigotry, that all Europeans should be treated as fairly as possible, Muslim citizens including.

Then you should focus on the objective facts listed in the report like the laws passed, which are openly discriminatory against a particular religion.

It depends on the situation. For example, it's reasonable if a school bans head scarves giving its Catholic signature. And they reserve that right. It is not so much anti-Muslim, but more maintaining the identity of the school. If you want to play the victim card, you'll probably say the school hates Muslims.

More over, these are not state-laws expect in the case of France, but the French have an extreme secular system.

The French headscarf law is blatantly discriminatory against Muslims.

FACT: The "secular" French had no problem for centuries while Jewish men were wearing kippas to school. This issue became a big problem only when Muslim schoolgirls showed up with headscarfs.

FACT: The French law makes an explicit exemption for "inconspicuous" religious symbols. If they are so strict about secularism, why make such an exemption? The reason is that Catholic symbols tend to be tiny pendants (allowed by the law), whereas Muslim symbols tend to be a headscarf.

One of the ridiculous examples you can read between the lines and was once in the news papers is the case of a Muslima, which was banned from participating classes. She attended pedagogics and was fully veiled. Needless to say how counter productive it is to engage with little children wearing a burka where there is no eye contact or facial expressions.

This is an extreme example that no one would try to defend. The article, and the broad discussion, is about symbols which don't pose a security threat or interfere with normal function of a person's duties.

 

[Audio]

Though it is also true many of the immigrant families have children that are born in their adopted home countries and the children are better assimilated than the parents, so perhaps progress is being made.

Third gen. (in some cases 2nd) immigrant (with a job/reason to live-not the disenfranchised youth who spent their school days in petty crime activities) is probably married to a western girl/man and considers sharia law a bad bad joke.

This is an extreme example that no one would try to defend. The article, and the broad discussion, is about symbols which don't pose a security threat or interfere with normal function of a person's duties.

I ask again, is it so bad if Muslims have to wear a crescent on a necklace? Again you try to shove your liberties(way of life!) down our throats.

His example is perfectly valid-it illustrates the inability of Muslims to adapt. It is a bit extreme, granted but that doesnt take its validity away.

 

[anonymus]

can you stop to change the words of what i say in this forum?
why you use your fantasm to change my words?

ok i repeat what i said so you can understand :
i say there is an association that is respected by everyone
only one parti hates this association. the parti who hates this association is the fascist parti
i never said that the association was fascist !!!
lol

Well,that clears the air.You used comma between fascist party and jew organisation and have curtailed the main body of your argument using a colon so i thought that you are alleging that jewish organisation is fascist.

 

[Developereo]

I ask again, is it so bad if Muslims have to wear a crescent on a necklace?

You completely misunderstand the point of the headscarf. It is designed to express modesty, not to advertise religion.

Religious symbols are not like gang colors where people wear competing symbols as a show of force.

 

[Audio]

You completely misunderstand the point of the headscarf. It is designed to express modesty, not to advertise religion.

Well, but it does. Turbans, scarfs, those Jew things they have. christian white collar....you can argue that they all represent something else however only one type of populace wears it and because of it they have almsot become synonimous to religion. And none of it except miniscule artifacts are allowed at school or in any kind of civil servant jobs.
Nobody will give that girl with a scarf a hard time if she wears something less "visible".

 

[Moorkh]

This discrimination seems to be a culmination of several small things that by themselves are easily debunked.

1) Most of the terror attacks in the west over the past decade and a half have had muslim perpetrators.
2) People like Anjem Chaudhary exist who call for implementation of 'sharia' in parts of britain while being in britain
3) People like Anjem Chaudhary are not shouted down by the very community they claim to represent
4) The culture might look alien to the west and will take time to change from 'exotic' to different.
5) Muslims seem to start making a ruckus every time someone says anything against their religion. examples vary from the death threats after the danish cartoons to the mass protests in pakistan after the american pastor burnt a quran
6) This close association that muslims have with their religion is completely beyond comprehension to the west where the church was relegated from identity long ago

i want to elaborate on point 6. since religion is so important to the muslims, and isnt to the west, people get the impression that muslim identity is very very important tot the muslims. this makes it much easier to connect the actions of some nutjobs to the rest of the community. the nutjobs after all blew up bombs in the name of 'islam' they might have been mis-directed, but the fact remains that they claimed to be guided by an identity that the muslims seem to hold so much more dearly than the west can fathom why. maybe the day some dimwit blows up someone in the name of india, the indian population will start to be seen as bad. what image would be created when a taliban fighter shouts islamic slogans before conducting a suicide attack instead of something to do with afghan nationalism?

there have been claims in this thread of how the chinese might be less assimilated than the muslims in the west. there are several differences though. no chinese tries to convert non chinese into chinese. people dont blow stuff up in the west for the glory of china.

and in spite of the US govt being so strongly opposed to the policies of the chinese government, no demonification of the chinese is done. maybe you would want to ask why it is so when during the cold war people were insulted by calling them communists.

this 'discrmination' against muslims has little to do with a western conspiracy to dehumanize muslims and more to do with the actions of muslims in various scenarios and the image they create.

 

[Moorkh]

You completely misunderstand the point of the headscarf. It is designed to express modesty, not to advertise religion.

Religious symbols are not like gang colors where people wear competing symbols as a show of force.

the symbols might represent modesty or something else within the religion. however to someone not part of the religion/culture, they are nothing more than 'gang color' as you put it.

the white cap that people wear around Eid can be an example. It probably represents piety or modesty or something else. however to anyone like me who is not a muslim, it simply is 'muslim cap'.

same goes for the sikh turbans. they probably represent some value like honour or strength or something. however to non sikhs all over india they are just sikh identifiers.

 

[Roybot]

Its funny how people have no qualms in believing this amnesty international report. If the same Amnesty made a report about some Muslim country the same people would be calling it western propaganda and what not

 

[Developereo]

Well, but it does. Turbans, scarfs, those Jew things they have. christian white collar....you can argue that they all represent something else however only one type of populace wears it and because of it they have almsot become synonimous to religion. And none of it except miniscule artifacts are allowed at school or in any kind of civil servant jobs.
Nobody will give that girl with a scarf a hard time if she wears something less "visible".

How can you wear a "miniscule" scarf whose whole purpose is to cover your head?

the symbols might represent modesty or something else within the religion. however to someone not part of the religion/culture, they are nothing more than 'gang color' as you put it.

So you are saying these images below are of Muslim women advertising "gang colors"?

My point is that when you see a woman with a headscarf, just see a woman with a headscarf. There's no need to read some ulterior agenda into it.