What's new

Musalmani Bangla and its transformation

First thing should be to change name of Bangladesh to Banglamulk or Bangistan (Bongistan?). BDeshis need to purge this evil influence of malaunic language called Sanksrit and move closer to their Arab brothers with whom they share a common culture, heritage, religion, physical traits and ancestory.
 
Last edited:
.
Interesting but Bangali language shouldn't be changed....it is an ancient language plus Bangladesh has an
advantage that it is single ethnicity…so the language can keep it united..In Pakistan we have 32 regional languages, I always say Urdu should be evolved to include words of local languages Punjabi, Pushto, Balochi, Sareki, Brauhi, Dari Persian (spoken by Hazara community) , to name a few.
 
.
Does any language with the name Musalmani Bangla exist?
 
.
Quoting from previous posts, suggestion to posters, try to read the posted materials.

http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/su/southasia/TESTold/James.1.html

Complementary schismogenesis arising out of the colonial impact


The colonial impact was great and complex. The Orientalists at Ft. William College--Hastings, Jones, Gilchrist, and Hunter--at least paid lip service to the goal of reviving purer, older forms of India's religions. Analogously, their approach to the language probably combined some desire to Anglicize with stronger conflicting tendencies either to purify and standardize Bengali or to romanticize and glorify vernacular forms (Kopf 1969). At any rate, there arose at the College a class of pundits whose Bengali self-consciously eliminated borrowings from Islamicate languages.3Sanskritization of Bengali proceeded apace. Not surprisingly, since this s;a\dhu bha\s>a\ differed from the common speech of Muslims in particular, there arose in reaction a Muslim form of speech--i.e. an form called "Musalmani Bangla" took increasingly distinct shape. So, Hindus under British influence took linguistically puristic steps, which provoked counter-steps by Muslims to "purify" Bengali of Sanskritic influence if that were possible. The anthropologist Gregory Bateson called this sort of mutual differentiation process "complementary schismogenesis," which is a process of differentiation in the norms of individual behaviour resulting from cumulative interaction between individuals [or groups]É [or the study of] the reactions of individuals to the reactions of other individuals" (1958: 175).4

http://www2.nau.edu/~jmw22/cv/ArabicLoanwords.pdf

Following Halhed’s lead, British Orientalists and Hindu pundits working in Calcutta (Ft. William College) produced a Sanskritized register successfully promulgated as “standard Bengali”. The intensification of Perso-Arabic borrowings in 19th-century dobhaßi was thus a reaction to Orientalism and the Sanskritization of Bengali. As emerging Hindu and Muslim leaders competed for populist appeal, they declared the others’ favored register (Sanskritized vs. dobhaßi)“unintelligible to the masses”. Some of Halhed’s successors – e.g. William Carey – at least for a time rejected linguistic purism. “A multitude of words, originally Persian or Arabic, are constantly employed in common conversation, which perhaps ought to be considered as enriching rather than corrupting the language” (Carey 1801:iii; emphasis in original). But Qayyum (1981) notes that later editions of Carey’s Grammar omitted these words. Around 1850, British missionary James Long dubbed the Islamized form of Bengali “Musalman Bengali” (later called Musalmani Bangla – a form relevant to producing targeted translations of the Bible).
 
.
First point Persian is the official language of most of S.Asia.

What a rubbish statement!!, where are those persian speakers now?? just disappered like that??

Persian and Turkic Languages are spoken in Kings court, not a comman man's language, those invaders most of them used to talk in their own languages rather than Indian languages.

Second point Bangla language is originated from sanskrit and because of some invaders there are some influences of Turkic and Persian languages.

always the threads are like

images
 
.
Today marks the beginning of a new era, the era of kalu miah's Musalmani Bangla. :lol:
......next they will say 'musalmani alcohol', 'musalmani mandir'.......ultimately 'musalmani Hindu'.....:lol::lol:
.....eventually, they'll put a 'musalmani' tag before all that is 'haram' and not related to Islam and make them 'halal' and related to Islam.........good survival tactics...:D
 
Last edited:
.
Interesting but Bangali language shouldn't be changed....it is an ancient language plus Bangladesh has an
advantage that it is single ethnicity…so the language can keep it united..In Pakistan we have 32 regional languages, I always say Urdu should be evolved to include words of local languages Punjabi, Pushto, Balochi, Sareki, Brauhi, Dari Persian (spoken by Hazara community) , to name a few.

I support the idea that Urdu in Pakistan should include more words of local languages, so the national language becomes richer and closer to these local languages.

With Bangla we have a little different situation. Between 1200 to 1757 under Muslim rule, we had a Bangla language that was not only full of Arabic, Persian and Turkic language loan words, there was even different scripts such as Nastaliq tried with that old Bangla language back in those days, as mentioned in one of the previous posts:
http://www2.nau.edu/~jmw22/cv/ArabicLoanwords.pdf
4 . History and historiography

Apparently, it was the Hindu poet Bharat Chandra in his poem Mansingha Kàvya (1752) who coined the term dobhasi Bangla ‘dual language’ (Haq 1957:174) for a register using many Perso-Arabic loanwords. Some dobhasi literature was written in the nasta≠liq script, or in Bengali written from right to left.

This is related to the old Puthi Language that I mentioned in OP.

After British started ruling Bengal since 1757, Some British scholars together with Bengali Hindu Pundits (Vidyasagar among this group) in Fort William College, changed that language, dropped most Persian, Arabic and Turkic loan words and added many Sanskrit words, to create a new form of standardized Bengali, to be taught in all educational institutions:
Following Halhed’s lead, British Orientalists and Hindu pundits working in Calcutta (Ft. William College) produced a Sanskritized register successfully promulgated as “standard Bengali”. The intensification of Perso-Arabic borrowings in 19th-century dobhaßi was thus a reaction to Orientalism and the Sanskritization of Bengali. As emerging Hindu and Muslim leaders competed for populist appeal, they declared the others’ favored register (Sanskritized vs. dobhaßi)“unintelligible to the masses”. Some of Halhed’s successors – e.g. William Carey – at least for a time rejected linguistic purism. “A multitude of words, originally Persian or Arabic, are constantly employed in common conversation, which perhaps ought to be considered as enriching rather than corrupting the language” (Carey 1801:iii; emphasis in original). But Qayyum (1981) notes that later editions of Carey’s Grammar omitted these words. Around 1850, British missionary James Long dubbed the Islamized form of Bengali “Musalman Bengali” (later called Musalmani Bangla – a form relevant to producing targeted translations of the Bible)
This is how Bangla language was transformed under British rule during Bengal Renaissance period in Kolkata.

In Bangladesh we no longer need to follow this "sanskritized Bangla", which perfectly suits West Bengal. Bangladesh needs to chart a new course and go back to our roots of Puthi language, our original language before the doctored transformation and sanskritization. This we can do by adding some new options for additional scripts (modern Arabic and English) and adding loan words (modern Arabic and English) to replace those recently added sanskrit words.

This is just my personal idea, not sure how this will be accepted by Bangladeshi scholars. And I am not a linguist or language expert by any means, just a layman expressing my views. What we do with our language in Bangladesh, however, should be no concern or business of Indians.
 
.
The people like OP are renegade leftovers of a past that is never going to come again.

They don't want to admit that their time is up and they are of no use to anyone. Better go back to the desert if anyone is going to admit them there.

The so called "Arab, Turk and Persian Urdu" will not be intelligible to any of those people. They won't understand even a single sentence spoken on the streets of people who speak "Urdu".

More than 90%-95% of the vocabulary of the language is Hindi (or Khari boli). The delusions of some people knows no bounds.

IF the 5% foreign words are kicked out, the language will lose nothing.
 
.
I'm cross posting this from Bangladesh protests Pakistan Parliament resolutions | Page 43

- it sort of comes as an enigma to me how did one generation of Bengali Muslims (besides earlier generations obviously) in many ways champion the cause of a separated Muslim homeland, only for the next generation to work to completely overturn that?

- since the defeat at Plassey (1757), the system that developed under British rule fuelled a Brahmin Bengali class to accumulate immense wealth and land, and dominate technical and literary development. what is called a ‘Bengali Renaissance’ was essentially a Brahmin affair. during this time, East Bengal, once a thriving Mughal economy, slowly decayed as did the Muslims. it was during then that education in science was relegated to a diminishing and relatively well off class of Muslims; illiteracy and poverty prevailed. education in Muslim high culture became part of an increasingly powerless Muslim educated class. pathsalas became the places to study instead of maktabs. ‘Bengali’ language and culture became overridden with Hindu culture. Muslims' inclination towards Arabi, Farsi, Urdu for literary purposes like olden times continued. i'm assuming here that a Musalman/Sultani Bengali could not get too strong a foothold amid all these factors combined.

- turn of 20th century provided a break for Bengali Muslims with advent of Muslim League and opening of a university in East Bengal.

- fastforward to post-1947: well-educated Hindus who used to administer East Bengal all this time mostly left for Calcutta (the same happened for Lahore but you are fortunate that the 'Calcutta' of Punjab went to the Muslims). the few who remained became influential parts of the academia, media and leftist politics of East Pakistan-East Bengal. the seeds of hatred against West Pakistan were being sowed – in the same parcel Bengali Muslim culture was turned into ‘foreign culture’ that ‘they’ were ‘imposing’ on ‘us’. what many newly educated Bengali Muslims adopted as their own were in fact gifts of the Brahmin Renaissance – from folklore to poetry to other social prose, from Nihan Ranjan to Madhusudan Dutta to Sarat Chandra to Tagore, and from literature like Gopal Bhar to Devdas to Galpaguccha. and these tendencies were not even divided along socio-economic classes of Muslims, but along generations. for example in just one educated Bengali family, if pre-1947 generation was dominated by Urdu and Farsi scholars, the generation that matured post-1947 was more steeped in ‘Bengali’ education. as a result when earlier generation was into Allama Iqbal, latter more politically-charged generation was into Bankim Chandra. if older Bengalis tried to initiate a counter-narrative, they were essentially going against a political tide at that time and no match for the historically well-educated well-entrenched Hindus.

- these societal tendencies post-1947, although devastating, never really "washed away" the people and facts of the Pakistan Movement from the memories or psyches. and i don't think they have been washed away even today despite efforts against it, and a lot of blood spilled around 1970 and also after 1971 definitely did a lot of damage. you possibly already know about the violence pre-March 1971 and post-1971 suppression of Muslim League, Nizam-e-Islam, Democratic Party of Nurul Amin, other Muslim oriented parties (@@Md Akmal).
- in these events, former-West Pakistan comes in at phases and (maybe i'm being Bengal-centric here) i wish it had a more helpful role.

here is an interesting link. i don't agree with it completely but it is somewhat related
Bengali Muslims are new (?) | Brown Pundits
Your first point isn't completely correct...our ancestors(in 47) did not fight for separate homeland for Muslims...they fought for separate homelands/states for muslims.....emphasis on the plural of state......71 was not an antithesis of 47.....they are different issues......read the Lahore resolution.....there were supposed to be TWO or more states not ONE.....One state with two wings on two sides of another country is not a viable solution for governance.......everyone knew it back in the 40s...that's why they put the word 'states' in the Lahore resolution instead of 'state'......71 was bound to happen....it was just a question of time!

.....there cannot be any 'musalmani bangla'..:lol:

Bengali language(Bangla) was literally developed by Ishwarchandra Vidyasagar from Sanskrit and hugely enriched by Rabindranath Tagore and other eminent bengali polymaths.....

This is one of those Indian languages which the Arabic/Persian influence couldn't distort......
Even Biddyashagor would have killed you if he heard this!
 
.
Your first point isn't completely correct...our ancestors(in 47) did not fight for separate homeland for Muslims...they fought for separate homelands/states for muslims.....emphasis on the plural of state......71 was not an antithesis of 47.....they are different issues......read the Lahore resolution.....there were supposed to be TWO or more states not ONE.....One state with two wings on two sides of another country is not a viable solution for governance.......everyone knew it back in the 40s...that's why they put the word 'states' in the Lahore resolution instead of 'state'......71 was bound to happen....it was just a question of time!

You are referring to this line of argument, I guess:
We have failed the Lahore Resolution – The Express Tribune

Lahore Resolution did have those words, but later Pakistan did not form like that in 1947. So our ancestors did fight for Pakistan the way it was formed, everyone in both East and West were in full agreement in 1947, regardless of what was in that text in 1940. It was much later they got disappointed for various reasons and many of these reasons were blown out of proportion, perhaps with some help from our perpetual enemy, in my opinion.

As for 1971, the result that we have achieved so far in Bangladesh does not look very promising. Due to geography and demography, we are extremely vulnerable and have been compromised already. In effect we have become a vassal state in 1971, so rather than achieving independence and sovereignty, I think we lost them much more than what we had before 1971. West wing 1200 miles away with 2.5 million Bihari supporters were never much of a threat for our huge population. Consider our situation now, 15 million Hindu population, Awami League supporters and RAW agents infiltrated in all strata and India on all 3 sides is a much bigger threat now. Now we are at a loss, don't know how we can get out of this situation, other than going through a suicidal second Afghanistan scenario on a much bigger scale in this corner of South Asia. I have a bad feeling about where the country is going.

This however is off topic in this thread.
 
Last edited:
.
Languages are never static, they evolve with time and distance. The English language is an example of that, the English spoken in the UK now is radically different from that spoken even 50 years back, and the English language that is spoken in the US, Australia, etc is different, and with time there will be even greater divergence.

The same with Bengali/Bangali, there is already distinct differences between that spoken in WB and that spoken in Bangladesh, with time this gulf will get wider as each state moves in its own distinct path. Eventually in say a century or so the similarities between the two will be very superficial.

Naturally as Bangladesh is a majority Muslim country (90% +), there will be elements of Persian, Turkish and Arabish words infused into common usage. Therefore in the end it does not mater, given time each states where Bengali/Bangali is spoken be it WB, Assam, Tripura or the nation of Bangladesh, they will all have there own language.
 
.
Now what happens if Persia reverts back to their religion and culture before Islam? That seems highly likely in a matter of a couple of generations. Already happening in the Iranian diaspora very significantly.

That will likely trigger a Tsunami among other converted people with identity crisis as this thread shows.
 
.
I agree with OP, Bengali or Bangla has significant Hindu influence and apparently it is blasphemous for a pure Muslim to express himself through a "Hindu" language. But I think a "Musalmani Bangla" would be an eyewash, a compromise, Bangladeshis should completely ban Bangla and opt for Urdu. :-)


I am sure @Anubis would also love to call himself Urdudeshi, @BDforever would have to change his user name to UDforever though. :D
 
Last edited:
.
......next they will say 'musalmani alcohol', 'musalmani mandir'.......ultimately 'musalmani Hindu'.....:lol::lol:
.....eventually, they'll put a 'musalmani' tag before all that is 'haram' and not related to Islam and make them 'halal' and related to Islam.........good survival tactics...:D
"Musalmani Bangla" literally means Circumcised Bangla...if you translate literally!
 
.
Now what happens if Persia reverts back to their religion and culture before Islam? That seems highly likely in a matter of a couple of generations. Already happening in the Iranian diaspora very significantly.

That will likely trigger a Tsunami among other converted people with identity crisis as this thread shows.

That would be an excellent development, as a non-Muslim Iran will no longer be helping Shia Arabs destabilize the Sunni majority Arab world. Good riddance I should say.

And in my post I never mentioned that Bangla should add Persian Nastaliq script or loan words, you should go back and read them, the languages I explicitly mentioned are modern Arabic (not classical) and English, for both scripts and loan words. Crisis or not, our identity is our business, pure and simple. We will deal with it in a way that seems fit to us.

As for conversion, all Muslims, including our Prophet (SAWS) himself was converted, down to each and every other Muslim and their future generations. So all Muslims have non-Muslim ancestors.
 
.

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom