MRCA V LCA MK2

[maverick2009]

The MRCA saga continues at a Snails pace. With Selection to be made between Summer 2009 and Autumn 2010 The First MRCA will not arrive until 2012. Thereafter an indian built MRCA will not arrive until 2014. These dates could yet slip even further knowing how india debates and works so painfully slowly. eg Goskhov Saga.

Meantime the Russian PAK FA to which india has assigned itself is due for flight Next Year. Albeit just a prototype meaning a fully fledged fighter won,t arrive until a decade of hardwork and over $10 billion of investment from both india & Russia. ie 2020 earliest.

On top of this we have the LCA project coming up to 1100 flights and ready for serious weapons testing but serious issues with engine and weight but a very promising show at aero india 2009.

LCA 2 has been suggested as the final OPRERATIONAL fighter eventually acheving the parameters that IAF wants and it seems alot of this mk2 wil include MRCA type technology ie Possible F414 or EJ200 engine and new redesigned undercarriage via EADS of Europe to help with weight isues. Radar options are also promising with both Israeli Elta & 2052 and earlier 2032 on the drawing board.

IT seems to me that india has itself too many options all in the same time frame. ie 2010 to 2010 india cannot afford all 3. options one of these has to be dropped. Since PAK FA is a FIFTH generation fighter and more long term with india long term strategic ally surely it has be either LCA or MRCA....THAT BITES THE THE BULLET....

From my neutral veiw point i would drop this MRCA deal. india will save a staggering $10 bilion.. This should be spent as follows...

1. $4 billion on upgrade of mirage 2000H to dash 9 & buy another 50 mirage2000 from UAE or France = 100 fighters...

2. $5 billion on PAK FA investment with Russians to enter service in 2020. By dropping MRCA india will retain Russia has its most trusted ally.

3. $3 billion on finishing the LCA MK2 with EADS typhoon Engine/ new undercarriage and Israeli Radar. To induct 100 fighters at unit price of under $30m each. the net result would be by 2020


230 su30 mki
100 mirage 2000 dash 9
100 LCA tejas mk1/2
100 upgraded jaguar
60 mig29 smt

590 planes

150 +PAK FA to follow to replace both mig29/ jaguar/ over 2020-2030 time frame

Surely this is a more managable option and in deed realistic in terms of cost and upheaveal to Air force

 

[Patriot]

But MRCA contract is turned more into political deal now.India is trying to build stragetic relationship with American.Remember, the only options within India's budget for 126 planes (10-12 billion) are only FA/18, F16 or Gripen.Eurofighter as well as Rafale both are way too expensive.The deal will cross 25+ (Possibly a lot more)billion easily if they go for eurofighter for 126 jets!Also, American jet's are easy to maintain..best bang for the buck so you can imagine why they are so pumped up about american jets.I can assure you American Jet will be selected as Gripen imo have very slim chances and Rafale or Eurofighter are way too expensive for what they does.

 

[Lockheed F-16]

But MRCA contract is turned more into political deal now.India is trying to build stragetic relationship with American.Remember, the only options within India's budget for 126 planes (10-12 billion) are only FA/18, F16 or Gripen.Eurofighter as well as Rafale both are way too expensive.The deal will cross 25+ (Possibly a lot more)billion easily if they go for eurofighter for 126 jets!Also, American jet's are easy to maintain..best bang for the buck so you can imagine why they are so pumped up about american jets.I can assure you American Jet will be selected as Gripen imo have very slim chances and Rafale or Eurofighter are way too expensive for what they does.

Rafale and Gripen are out anyway

 

[sancho]

1. $4 billion on upgrade of mirage 2000H to dash 9 & buy another 50 mirage2000 from UAE or France = 100 fighters...

2. $5 billion on PAK FA investment with Russians to enter service in 2020. By dropping MRCA india will retain Russia has its most trusted ally.

3. $3 billion on finishing the LCA MK2 with EADS typhoon Engine/ new undercarriage and Israeli Radar. To induct 100 fighters at unit price of under $30m each. the net result would be by 2020


230 su30 mki
100 mirage 2000 dash 9
100 LCA tejas mk1/2
100 upgraded jaguar
60 mig29 smt

590 planes

At first you missed around 40 upg Mig 27 that also will stay in service till 2020/25 like the Mig 29.

Point 1 is pretty unlikely, cause Dassault offered the whole production line of Mirage 2000-9 in the first competition and if IAF wanted it, they just had to say yes, but they didn't. Also why should we spend $4 bil for upgrades and second hand fighters if 100 new and more capable MRCA like Mig 35, Gripen, F16 and F18SH with latest radar and weapons would only cost around $4,5 - 6 Bil? I think that is exactly the reason why it's now MMRCA, if we already have to spend money to counter shrinking squad numbers, we should be sure we get something that is worth it!

I really don't understand what you mean with point 2. Pak Fa is already under development and we paid, are paying for it. Russian sources says that it will enter production between 2015 and 2018, the Indian version will come only by 2020/22. So why spend $5 bil more? And why shouldn't we be a trusted alley of Russia only because we made the MMRCA competition? Aren't they in the race too?

LCA Mk2 hopefully will be ready to get in service by 2012 and will start to replace Mig 21 Bisons, but it will be nowhere near to any MMRCA in the competition by then! It will take some more years till all developments and integration will be done and then we might see how capable it really is.
Also you should think about the quality of IAF fleet in your list! Till all Mkis are upg and gets AESA radar it will be 2020, so the only one with a latest radar will be LCA. Half of the fleet are old aircrafts, with slightly modernised techs. At the same time PAF and PLAAF wil get F16 block 52+, JF 17, J 10, so not only our squad number would fall dramatically also our quality!
So if you don't want that, you have to get a new MMRCA.

 

[sancho]

Rafale and Gripen are out anyway

Why should Gripen be out?

 

[RajsParadise]

Possible scenario leading upto 2015-2020
1) 230 Su-30 MKI with AESA and avionics upgraded to the level of a MIG-35.
2) 60 + Mirage (Possible upgrade to batch 9)
3) 120 + Mig 21 bison with BVR will remain in force upto 2020-2025.
4) 100-120 Jaguars will be in service till 2015-2018
5) 60 + Mig 29 (with acquisition of 12 Mig 29 UB for Gorkshov)
6) 40+ Mig 27 which are upgraded to SMT standards
7) 126 – 200 MMRCA (Potentially a F18 SH/ Mig 35 split)
8) 40+ LCA MK2
9) F35 Lightening II if Indian goes for F18 SH/F16IN – Block 60
And if PAK/FA does develop to its potential India might want to have atleast 140 of these birds at its disposal.
So, numerically if my math is correct India would still retain 780 – 1000 planes where as Indian plans are to retain some where around 39 – 42 squadrons which will be around 1000 1200 Fighter crafts. So, lets play the waiting game and see what it actually ends up with then we can have a debate on it.

 

[maverick2009]

Raja Yourlist is impressive.

But won,t happen.

India will go bankrupt trying to acquire that many new fighters.

Has for maintaining mig21 bisons & MIG27m in 2020 they will surely be death traps. Even the mig29 is already being phased out accross the world.

Finally too many combat types wat a nitemare for indian air force that wud be and so many obselete planes like jags mig29 mig21 mig27.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Raja Yourlist is impressive.

But won,t happen.

India will go bankrupt trying to acquire that many new fighters.

Has for maintaining mig21 bisons & MIG27m in 2020 they will surely be death traps. Even the mig29 is already being phased out accross the world.

Finally too many combat types wat a nitemare for indian air force that wud be and so many obselete planes like jags mig29 mig21 mig27.

Well! Mig 21 and MiG 27 are upgraded to serve till 2025. The Jags are new aircrafts..(most of them) and they are also getting an engine upgrade soon. MiG 29s are new in the Navy and The IAF ones are upgraded to SMT standards. All those are on the list will serve IAF till 2025.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

And I dont know why people compare LCA with the MRCA aircraft. They are aircrafts for 2 different roles. and the aircrafts in the MRCA deal are far more advanced and carry far more payload than the LCA. Stop comparing flying aircrafts to the imaginary ones.

 

[badguy2000]

india's plans are always slower than expected.

In mid 1990s I heard about "LCA " of India, when I was still a middle school student. Now ,I am nearly 30 years old, but "LCA" still has not entered into service.


In 2004, when I returned to a university for for a master degree, I heard about India's plan of "MRCA". Now, I have got the degree of master ,but MRCA is still on paper.

I am going to get married in one year. I just want to know if LCA and MRCA can be finished when my baby gets born.

 

[Black Stone]

india's plans are always slower than expected.

In mid 1990s I heard about "LCA " of India, when I was still a middle school student. Now ,I am nearly 30 years old, but "LCA" still has not entered into service.


In 2004, when I returned to a university for for a master degree, I heard about India's plan of "MRCA". Now, I have got the degree of master ,but MRCA is still on paper.

I am going to get married in one year. I just want to know if LCA and MRCA can be finished when my baby gets born.

 

[muslim282]

india's plans are always slower than expected.

I am going to get married in one year. I just want to know if LCA and MRCA can be finished when my baby gets born.

who knows you might end up seeing your baby,s baby by the time MRCA can be finished.

In regards to the LCA, well this hodge podge mixture of parts from numerous countries glued together and called indeginous will not be made in extensive numbers and in the end will only be inducted in small numbers to keep up morale in the indian defence sector and save face, Just like the Arjun which was also displayed on numerous occasions and touted as being as capable as the leopard and challenger. In both projects the indians tried to go it alone from ground up and instead of going through tried and tested methods and technologies they tried to inovate, each time they hit a snag they would resort to fix it by adding an off the shelf technology.
What I find odd is that having not yet gone into serial production(LCA) and no final configuration of what it will look like the indians are talking about quantity and how much they will have.
The other suprising thing l read from certain members on this website on why the indians should not consider the gripen as this was similiar to the LCA in technology and mission function hence no use to india.
Absolute rubbish. The gripen is a proven, fully functional, developed technology in use by a leading european nation (sweden) and south africa. Whereas the LCA is a mixture of flying bits and pieces thats not yet even fully accepted by its own armed forces.
LCA MK2......... well theirs no harm in fantasy.

 

[messenger]

who knows you might end up seeing your baby,s baby by the time MRCA can be finished.

In regards to the LCA, well this hodge podge mixture of parts from numerous countries glued together and called indeginous will not be made in extensive numbers and in the end will only be inducted in small numbers to keep up morale in the indian defence sector and save face, Just like the Arjun which was also displayed on numerous occasions and touted as being as capable as the leopard and challenger. In both projects the indians tried to go it alone from ground up and instead of going through tried and tested methods and technologies they tried to inovate, each time they hit a snag they would resort to fix it by adding an off the shelf technology.
What I find odd is that having not yet gone into serial production(LCA) and no final configuration of what it will look like the indians are talking about quantity and how much they will have.
The other suprising thing l read from certain members on this website on why the indians should not consider the gripen as this was similiar to the LCA in technology and mission function hence no use to india.
Absolute rubbish. The gripen is a proven, fully functional, developed technology in use by a leading european nation (sweden) and south africa. Whereas the LCA is a mixture of flying bits and pieces thats not yet even fully accepted by its own armed forces.
LCA MK2......... well theirs no harm in fantasy.

you just answered every pakistani on this thread . !

 

[Keysersoze]

Errr no messenger reinventing something that already exists and failing at it does NOT equal innovation.

 

[muslim282]

you just answered every pakistani on this thread . !

No messenger, you have not read what I wrote
"They TRIED to innovate"
The annalogy being you were trying to reinvent the wheel scenario.

You pick up on one line of my reply and try to give it your own understanding, it seems as though your making the same mistake as the people working on the arjun and LCA

If the LCA does come into active service, I think it,s foe by that time will probably be in the form of the JF-17 block II.

I can,t understand that with such massive amounts of money wasted by the indians on projects such as the LCA and arjun, that heads have not gone and still more money is being pumped into such projects. This then amounts to nothing more than a face and pride saving exercise by the indians, induct a few junk bits, use them on parade and independance days to show the public.