More than 300 PAF Mirages & F-7s will be retired in future. A huge market indeed.

[silent hawk]

If yo


A combination of the carrier's own AEW, escort vessels equipped with the EL/M-2248 MF-STAR, radars of the BARCAP will ensure a massive net is thrown around the carrier itself- far beyond 100km.

This could be supplemented by IAF AWACS that could be tasked with expanding the IN's awareness.


Well more fool the PAF if true. Looking at the specs of the MiG-29K should not give the PAF any delusions of superiority- the orginal MiG-29 was explicitly meant to counter the USAF's air supremacy fighter-the F-15. The MiG-29K is an entirely enhanced beast that is 1.5 times bigger, fully digitised, truly multi role and as modern (if not more so) than anything the PAF has flying- don't get lost in the MiG-29 designation.



You are clearly more informed of the PAF's abilities than I am but i am doubtful of the assertion that the PAF would be in a position to field an entire SQN of their top end fighter to attack an Indian CBG when they are also coming under pressure from on their Eastern front from a more numerous and able foe (IAF). Even if they could my point remains- an IN CBG could deal with it.


I'll reiterate that we are looking purely at an arbitrary IN CBG vs PAF scenario but this narrow frame can be expanded.intelligence works both ways, if there is a clear indication that one of India's strategic assets (which all nations consider their carriers to be) is at significant risk then the IAF would have no issues in deploying MKIs and AWACS to supplement the CBG's own air wing over the Arabian Sea. Half a SQN of MKIs deployed for such a task would categorically even the playing field (in the fighter domain).



Well this is a rather silly comment to make. Most truly cutting edge military systems have not been in live operational duties. Does this mean they are inherently unproven? Of course not. Do you not think all such systems have faced extensive elopement and subsequent user trials before being inducted into service? Are the Israeli or Indian militaries known for being so unprofessional and callous? You know the answer.


As do the majority of the world's military powers.


The BARAK-8 is nothing but a "nuisance"? I would consider your sources. The BARAK-8 is easily one of the finest such weapons in service today- the missile's own seeker coupled with the AESA EL/M-2248 MF-STAR offers a very high interception rate. As I have said this system has been explicitly designed to counter low flying supersonic, highly manoeuvrable, AhSMs so incoming fighters and subsonic CMs like the Ra'ad would be highly vulnerable to it.


This kind of bravado is not going to win wars. Pakistan has underestimated India's capabilities in every war and as a result lost all of them.



Hardly relevant in 2015 and looking ahead, is it?

AoA
Why would you risk a strategic asset when you have land based aircrafts and assets with the same capability? Has any nation acquired a carrier so that it operates under protection of land based aircraft?
Regards

Sir
I hope you don't mind if i ask you keep the conversation related to acquiring the Aircraft.
Regards

AoA
Agreed. Enough said on the topic anyway.Thanks.
Regards

 

[Muhammad Omar]

Many people think that the aim of the PN air arm should be too sink an enemy carrier battle group. Even if the air arm manges to badly damage or sink 2 or even 3 frigates/destroyers early since the commencement of hostilities. That would be enough to send shock waves in the attacking fleet.

Addition to above to Counter threats of Indian Naval Wing (MiG-29 Jaguars Tejas and Harriers) and make our ports and Coastal Cities secure

 

[Sine Nomine]

This kind of bravado is not going to win wars. Pakistan has underestimated India's capabilities in every war and as a result lost all of them.

I beg to differ,other then 1971 in which you were having 1:70,you won that's too after PA was fighting from last 8 months.In all wars you fail to break spine of a small country against whom you always enjoyed overwhelming numerical superiority.

 

[kurutoga]

J-10C is the good option..
J-10C's per unit price will be between $ 45-50 millions

I am just curious if any one at PAF actually tested and evaluated J10? What is the conclusion, does it worth the extra $ compared to JF-17?

 

[black-hawk_101]

J-10 is not coming instead J-31s are coming.

I think!

 

[New World]

I am just curious if any one at PAF actually tested and evaluated J10? What is the conclusion, does it worth the extra $ compared to JF-17?

PAF has evaluated and test J-10 to its end... you can say that PAF was one of the partner in the development of J-10..

in 2006 Mushy plan to buy 36 j-10 along with 36 F-16 but at that time J-10A not a true multirole jet fighter. So PAF put hold on J-10A because they thought that J-10A is the same as JF-17 but with some larger payload..
PAF cooperate with china to develop J-10 at the level of F-16 blk 52 and now J-10C version is at the level of F-16 blk 52..

 

[Alphacharlie]

Young Boys - Now Let me give you the Picture.

CBG will include - 1 (Min) Destroyer
- 2 Frigates
- 1 SSN or 2 Kilos
-1-2 Corvettes
- ASW Choppers (2 each from Destroyer + 1 from Frigate/each +1 from Corvette ) Total 6 (excl. from Air Craft Carrier)
- 2 -4 Atleast MRA (Marine Recee A/c, ElInt)
- 1 Hypothetic E2D or Inputs from Phalcon or Inputs from 1 Indian Awacs

Radars Involved - Excluding AirCraft Carrier
M-2248 MF-STAR - AESA - Destroyer Kolkotta Class (Switched Off)
M-2238 STAR - S band Radar (Switched Off)
EL/W-2090 - AWACS Phalcon - (Switched Off)
Naval Satellite GSTA -7 Covering whole Indian Ocean - (Switched Off)

Under Sea
2 Kilos or 1 SSN

Aerial Threat
Mirage 3/5 - 1 TO 2 SQN at a Max - Non Existant Vs 1 SQN MKI from Lohegan Pune (assuming MIG 29 K is Junk as many Bogies consider)

Mirage 3/5 - No threat. Target Practise Ducks
F16 Block 52 - Yanks have attached strings. Can be used with Harpoon - Threat
JF17 - No threat. Till date not even MAWs has been added in this Bird. Radar not effective after 80Kts - Target Practise Ducks

Threats
1) F16 Blk 52 Launching Harpoon from 100Kts
2) Pak Submarine - Indian Ocean has enough crevices for subs to Hide a week/more for AIP and Launch a Exocette in sleep mode.
3) All Indian Rads Switched off and Mig 29k is Trash - Depending on Mki alone.
4) Tactical Nuke Air Burst.
5) China donating a SSN - Type 0093
6) Nuclear Sea Mines or Conventional Sea Mines

Air Defence
1) CIWS Total Number Excluding Aircraft Carrier - ATLEAST 16
CIWS can be programmed to work in Unison making a Carpet for whole Fleet (8-10 ships)

2) Barak 1 - Inner Cirlce upto 12 Km
Once Inner Cirlce is breached as per SOP 4 missiles are fired for each Boggie
Frigates, Corvettes have Barak1/8

3) Barak 8
Being Tested upto 110 Km as per Latest Intel
1Boggie 2 Missiles are Launched SOP

4) 350KM + MIG 29K, MKI
Note MIG29K is useless no wonder Russki Naval Aviation is using it
No wonder Chinks were keen on the same, until refused.
Lets Talk MIG29 Elint and Target acquisition Capability.

MKI 1 Marine SQN with 16 A/c can cover atleast 3000 Sq Miles

Bottomline
1) Aerial Threat from A/C - Negated
2) Nuke Mine/Air Burst - Yes
3) Gifted Chinese SSN - Yes
4) SSK Hidden in Crevices of Ind ocean - Yes
5) God Dropping a Thunder Bolt on all 5 Radars - Yes.
6) PAF Jets doing "Hara Kiri" - Yes
remember SAMs are tested many-times once convinced only then deployed.

1 Sling shot of Harpoon or Silkworm would not Kill the baby. You need atlest 6-8Hits and then 3-4 Hours of Flotation in Sea.

Bottom Line - In War We never say, I am safe till I make it Back "Happy Landing"

 

[Jat Boy]

Persona

Regarding your comment

Even if the air arm manges to badly damage or sink 2 or even 3 frigates/destroyers early since the commencement of hostilities. That would be enough to send shock waves in the attacking fleet.

The pakistan nation today has no dedicated air arm
The indians have 42 mig29k which are a better fighter in one v one situation than anything in PAF bar the upgraded F16/52/F16MLU...

The next point is any indian carrier will be ring fenced by

up to 9 of these

The Talwar & Kolktta class ships carry 48 bara 8 sams each which can hit a fighter at over 100km and have anti missle capabillity = THAT MEANS a carrier has 9 warships 500 sam MISSLES ansd 24 mig29k PROTECTING THE CARRIER.

The 9 warships also carry 16 brahmos or club class cruise missles each

see below

Thats 150 brahmos missles that can hit anything upto 300km

FINALLY

The IAF su30mki which nos 220 fighters will provide additional FLEET AIR COVER IN A WAR

SEE BELOW each mki carrys 10 BVR missles

Sinking a indian frigate with a 50 year old mirage plane is nonsense

those PAF mirages will last 5 seconds in front of a modern sam or mig29k or mkli.

an indian battle group naval radar tracks up to 500km in a constant mode.

" if you ever get su35" then the threat is real

 

[untitled]

Sinking a indian frigate with a 50 year old mirage plane is nonsense

You do realize they have been upgraded.

Thanks for reminding us what we are up against. As I said if we sink 2/3 frigates our job is done

 

[Jat Boy]

Sink 2 frigates Job done are you sure

The indians are fielding

10 guided missles destroyers
16 guided missles frigates

2 carriers

Persona you have just ignored my above post

Vikramditya will carry 24 mig29k

Search radar of 500km ON Board

9 frigates & destroyers giving protection of 500 SAM BARAK 8

P8 posedions operating near by




And SU30 MKI as well.

** Unless you send the entire PAF and NAVY to take on one indian battle group the pakistanis wont get within 500km

The Aviationist » Photo of India’s new Aircraft Carrier Battle Group. Better than China’s?


Persona

This will give you more detail about carrier protection

 

[Gallium Nitride]

JF-17 with KLJ-7V2 has a range of 120 km for 5 meter square targets. Su-30mki's RCS is nearly 20 meter square with full air to ground load so it is easier to detect. JF-17 can launch CM-400AKG Anti ship missile from 250 km before the Indian SAMs come in action in the range of 110 km. And who said JF-17 does does not have MAWS?

And everybody needs to clear their point. Almost all PAF F-16s have been upgraded to MLU standard that makes them equivalent to the Block-50 F-16s.


After the upgrade the aircraft's main advantage is the AIM-120 AMRAAM BVR Air to air missile.

It is said that the AIM-120 AMRAAM has an edge over both of India's AA-10 ALAMO (R-27) and the R-77 Adder because of better range and Artificial Intelligence so the missile cannot be fooled by Chaff. But the India's newly acquired R-27ER might match the capabilities of the AIM-120 AMRAAM.

Another upgradation is Multi-Ejector pylons. Now the aircraft can carry 8x AIM-120 AMRAAM and 2x Harpoon with 1x 300LB fuel tank.

The pilot after the upgradation wears the helmet with Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing system.

In the picture you can see a PAF F-16 MLU Block-15. Note the JHMCS Helmet

Moreover, IAF is still using inferior Topsight Helmets for the MIG-29UPG and the DASH-3 for the Tejas LCA.

 

[Jat Boy]

If your sending an already outnumbered outstetched PAF with thunders anf F16 to find locate and engage the indian navy out at sea prehaps 500km TO 1000km from an air base two questions.

1. How much fuel you need to travel and engage a task force out at sea .. these are single engined small figters.

2. Whose protecting the pak air space

PS no F16 can carry 8 BVRSW ans 2 harpoons at the same time lol

that is impossible

Even the su30mki can only carry 10 missles only..


One other thing the Flankers Just like F15 of the USA israel or Japan dont rely on not being detected as their strength.

These massive air supremacy fighters where built with massive radar and jammers . They dont hide they sweep all before them with superior radars better bigger jammers and more missles.

F16 will run out of fuel over the sea and crash as will thunders because the indians will know they are short on fuel the tactics will involve dragging the PAF out to sea

 

[Jat Boy]

If you truely want to engage any navy especially a navy with carriers out at sea you need long range muti role fighters.

NOT SINGLE ENGINED light fighters.

You also need a very large fleet of long range marttime planes like P8 posedions

Remember a carrier battle group is moving target its NOT A BUILDING.

simplying telling us F16 have amraams will not sink the frigate

more likely the f16 will be tracked from 500km by the battle group and then engaged by a barak 8 at 100km or a couple MIG29K launched after the F16 has used up over 50% of its fuel to track it and destroy it.

Pakistan has a token option to engage the indians at sea today they need so much more like su35

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Sir I am at a loss here. A CBG will have the greatest threat from where? Air or under sea?

We all agree on the fact that a long range heavy fighter is the need of PA/PN. We have four AWACS stationed at Masroor -- southern air command. These are backed up by 7 Orion's. No need for more surveillance assets.

We are already training pilots in China and evaluating our options.

The biggest threat to a CBG during transit is from the hunter/killer subs. We are already talking to China for procurement of subs to enhance our extended patrol/picket lines.

My 2c worth!

 

[Jat Boy]

Agree with your comments.

CBG biggest threat would be a submarine threat

I was merely replying to the poster who suggested sinking frigates using a F16 or Thunder as the answer