More LCA Tejas For The IAF: $5.2 Billion Deal For Mark 1A Variant To Be Signed By December,

[MirageBlue]

Well lets wait for the contract to be signed than.

Contract will be signed at Aero India 2021 in early Feb. don't worry, the IAF is as eager to get the contract signed. With CCS approval, all hurdles are cleared now.

20 jets per year is a bollywood Fantasy. I guess Adani and Ambani or other Corporates will jump in to milk the Indian Cow.

Currently HAL can produce 10-12 Tejas fighters per year. But a new facility is being built which is to be operational by 2021 where 8 more will be assembled. Target for the Mk1A is 16 per year.

But given how HAL has moved away from being the only production agency to being an integrator, scaling up the production numbers is possible.

And no, neither Adani nor Ambani have any skin in this game.

It is VEM Tech, L&T, Dynamatics and Alpha Tocol which will do the work from the private sector. Dynamatics and Alpha Tocol have already built and certified the full aft and front fuselage for the Tejas Mk1. and the last IOC fighters were flying with wings built by L&T. So it should be possible to scale up production to even 24 per year if the order size is big enough.

 

[MirageBlue]

48,000 crore INR, that is $6.56 billion for 83 pieces or $79 million per aircraft. I thought the reason for the last few years of delay was HAL was quoting $65 million per unit which IAF thought was too expensive. Can someone explain what finally happened then?

There's a big difference between fly-away cost and program costs. Since with fighters you don't just buy a fighter but an entire eco-system to be able to maintain, repair, train pilots, stock spares etc. All of that requires investments as well.

which is why it is always so much more expensive buying a new type than adding more units to an existing type in service.

IAF asked for (X) number of spares to be provided along with the fighters and that increased the cost. There was renegotiation, the number of spares (Y) were reduced and the cost came down. Now, it seems that they've agreed for a number Z which is < X but >Y.

Tejas Mk1A fly-away cost is approximately $50 million. Which is ok, given what capabilities it brings. It will be the most technologically advanced fighter in the IAF, after the Rafale.

 

[MirageBlue]

Really ,,, so sorry, in case I missed it, but when can we realistically expect to see the first Mk.1A and even more the first Mk.2?

As per the Aeronautical Development Agency's head's latest interview from January 2021, Tejas Mk2 prototype is planned to be rolled out in 2022. Metal cutting is to begin on the prototype in February 2021. But you'll get more confirmation on this in a couple of weeks from now, once Aero India 2021 starts.

The Tejas Mk2 is planned to be inducted by 2026. Add a year or two depending on how confident you are about their schedules.

They are very clear that the fundamental technologies are all now proven on the Tejas Mk1 and almost all are developed within India even if they took foreign consultancy to fix issues. The FCS, composites, avionics, the Mission Computer, weapons algorithms, the fuel management system, the brake management system, you name it. Plus, the indigenous Uttam AESA radar is doing very well in flight tests from what I gather. So it'll replace the Elta 2052 that's there on the Mk1A.

The Tejas Mk2 just adds a bigger airframe and engine and needs to be designed to cater to that. It is THE fighter that the IAF is most interested in as of now, since it'll replace the Mirage-2000, MiG-29 and Jaguar.

Just FYI, the ADA Director also said this about the AMCA (which is now in detailed design phase)

" India is aggressively working on developing its 5th generation advanced multirole combat aircraft (AMCA) to reduce dependency on foreign players and support the ‘Aatmanirbhar Bharat’ mission. Could you share the latest updates of AMCA project?

AMCA is India’s ambitious 5th/ 6th Generation aircraft program. The feasibility studies of AMCA were completed in 2015. In 2019, IAF gave a formal go ahead for development of AMCA in two phases. AMCA Mk. 1 would be developed with an existing engine while AMCA Mk. 2 would have an advanced indigenous engine. Moreover, AMCA Mk. 2 would have 6th Generation capabilities. Today, the AMCA configuration has been frozen along with the architecture of all the systems. Detailed design has commenced and roll out is planned in 2024. "

Again, add 1-2 years to the current roll-out date mentioned if you feel like, but still we're talking about 2025-26 for the AMCA Mk1 with 2 X F-414-INS6 engines.

Also, FYI, ADA is going to reveal the FINAL design of the Tejas Mk2 and AMCA as well as the Preliminary Design of the TEDBF at Aero India 2021. I'm personally very very interested to see what they show. Especially the TEDBF which is very likely to be different than the Tejas Mk2 and instead based on the LCA Navy Mk2's final design before the Indian Navy dropped the single engine LCA Navy Mk2 fighter. So, basically a twin engine evolution of the design shown below.

 

[drumstick]

Does that mean single engine foreign air craft requirement tender is closed... MRCA?

For the cabinet decision, good choice.

Boeing and Gripen still persuing us for F21 or F16 and Gripen... but i think you are right the single engine RFQ is closed for good.

 

[MirageBlue]

Boeing and Gripen still persuing us for F21 or F16 and Gripen... but i think you are right the single engine RFQ is closed for good.

Saab has pulled out of Aero India 2021. I think they've gotten the message loud and clear. The IAF is going in for the Tejas Mk2 which is in the exact same weight, payload and technological class as the Gripen E. So no point wasting any more money or effort in trying to promote it to the IAF for the MMRCA.

F-21, well the fighter is extremely capable, but the Rafale seems to be most optimal given the existing contracts in place for the 36 Rafales. My wish is that the GoI simply buys 36 or 48 more Rafales off the shelf and is done with MRCA for good. 4-5 squadrons of Rafales are good enough.

 

[The Maverick]

I watch a,video from.acm bhaduria yesterday where he explained an entire eco system is being built to not just support and maintain 123 tejas but future mark 2 tejas,and Amca and drones as we'll.

what the natives don't understand is tejas has,formed the base to go on and developed 4 or 5 future combat systems in house,over next 40 years..

this takes,time and money .

we,are not ordering a plane from.chengu asking them.to do it all for us to our requirements,.

the,technology and experience is worth billion s billions of saved dollars,in future programmes,like
mark 2 tejas,Amca auroras drones Astra bvr, mark 2 3 and new stand off weapons aesa radars, and guys thousands of young indian graduates,get work.

that's,win win for India,

Saab has pulled out of Aero India 2021. I think they've gotten the message loud and clear. The IAF is going in for the Tejas Mk2 which is in the exact same weight, payload and technological class as the Gripen E. So no point wasting any more money or effort in trying to promote it to the IAF for the MMRCA.

F-21, well the fighter is extremely capable, but the Rafale seems to be most optimal given the existing contracts in place for the 36 Rafales. My wish is that the GoI simply buys 36 or 48 more Rafales off the shelf and is done with MRCA for good. 4-5 squadrons of Rafales are good enough.

this,isexactly what is happening

 

[drumstick]

Saab has pulled out of Aero India 2021. I think they've gotten the message loud and clear. The IAF is going in for the Tejas Mk2 which is in the exact same weight, payload and technological class as the Gripen E. So no point wasting any more money or effort in trying to promote it to the IAF for the MMRCA.

F-21, well the fighter is extremely capable, but the Rafale seems to be most optimal given the existing contracts in place for the 36 Rafales. My wish is that the GoI simply buys 36 or 48 more Rafales off the shelf and is done with MRCA for good. 4-5 squadrons of Rafales are good enough.

Official Reason for Saab to pull out is COVID, but we all know what it really is. With Tejas firm order placed the single engine category for foreign players is almost dead... unless GoI decided to buy something off the shelf to address the falling squadron strength problem.

and i agree with you on F21.

 

[Kingslayerr]

I think india is now feeling ashamed of always coming over to drink the fantastic tea and not bring anything, so now next time whenever they'll come over to drink the fantastic tea, they will bring this samosa with them. Next time it'll be chai with samosa.

 

[TheSnakeEatingMarkhur]

replace "Indians" with "muslims" in your post,

Muslims arent a race either...

 

[MirageBlue]

I think india is now feeling ashamed of always coming over to drink the fantastic tea and not bring anything, so now next time whenever they'll come over to drink the fantastic tea, they will bring this samosa with them. Next time it'll be chai with samosa.

The quality of the posts on this forum..sigh.

 

[Kingslayerr]

The quality of the posts on this forum..sigh.

Man lets be honest if the quality of the posts were bad on this forum than believe me 90% of the people wont be here and this would be a dead forum. After reading like 100s of good posts, target one and then complain qyAlItY oF p0stS. Grow up man.

 

[m52k85]

There's a big difference between fly-away cost and program costs. Since with fighters you don't just buy a fighter but an entire eco-system to be able to maintain, repair, train pilots, stock spares etc. All of that requires investments as well.

which is why it is always so much more expensive buying a new type than adding more units to an existing type in service.

IAF asked for (X) number of spares to be provided along with the fighters and that increased the cost. There was renegotiation, the number of spares (Y) were reduced and the cost came down. Now, it seems that they've agreed for a number Z which is < X but >Y.

Tejas Mk1A fly-away cost is approximately $50 million. Which is ok, given what capabilities it brings. It will be the most technologically advanced fighter in the IAF, after the Rafale.

Right ok thanks, I know the U.S publishes detailed costs for the F-35 program, Pakistan doesnt for the Jf-17, PAF has at best given a single figure without specifying whats included or not, but what is the source of your info? Published or internal sources?

 

[Kingslayerr]

As per the Aeronautical Development Agency's head's latest interview from January 2021, Tejas Mk2 prototype is planned to be rolled out in 2022. Metal cutting is to begin on the prototype in February 2021. But you'll get more confirmation on this in a couple of weeks from now, once Aero India 2021 starts.

The Tejas Mk2 is planned to be inducted by 2026. Add a year or two depending on how confident you are about their schedules.

They are very clear that the fundamental technologies are all now proven on the Tejas Mk1 and almost all are developed within India even if they took foreign consultancy to fix issues. The FCS, composites, avionics, the Mission Computer, weapons algorithms, the fuel management system, the brake management system, you name it. Plus, the indigenous Uttam AESA radar is doing very well in flight tests from what I gather. So it'll replace the Elta 2052 that's there on the Mk1A.

The Tejas Mk2 just adds a bigger airframe and engine and needs to be designed to cater to that. It is THE fighter that the IAF is most interested in as of now, since it'll replace the Mirage-2000, MiG-29 and Jaguar.

Just FYI, the ADA Director also said this about the AMCA (which is now in detailed design phase)

" India is aggressively working on developing its 5th generation advanced multirole combat aircraft (AMCA) to reduce dependency on foreign players and support the ‘Aatmanirbhar Bharat’ mission. Could you share the latest updates of AMCA project?

AMCA is India’s ambitious 5th/ 6th Generation aircraft program. The feasibility studies of AMCA were completed in 2015. In 2019, IAF gave a formal go ahead for development of AMCA in two phases. AMCA Mk. 1 would be developed with an existing engine while AMCA Mk. 2 would have an advanced indigenous engine. Moreover, AMCA Mk. 2 would have 6th Generation capabilities. Today, the AMCA configuration has been frozen along with the architecture of all the systems. Detailed design has commenced and roll out is planned in 2024. "

Again, add 1-2 years to the current roll-out date mentioned if you feel like, but still we're talking about 2025-26 for the AMCA Mk1 with 2 X F-414-INS6 engines.

Also, FYI, ADA is going to reveal the FINAL design of the Tejas Mk2 and AMCA as well as the Preliminary Design of the TEDBF at Aero India 2021. I'm personally very very interested to see what they show. Especially the TEDBF which is very likely to be different than the Tejas Mk2 and instead based on the LCA Navy Mk2's final design before the Indian Navy dropped the single engine LCA Navy Mk2 fighter. So, basically a twin engine evolution of the design shown below.

Okay so development and induction of the twin engin tejas for IN is a different program and the induction of rafale or f-18 is a different program right? And which of the program will replace the mig29s?

 

[MirageBlue]

Okay so development and induction of the twin engin tejas for IN is a different program and the induction of rafale or f-18 is a different program right? And which of the program will replace the mig29s?

The Indian Navy wants to look for 36 Rafale or F/A-18 E/Fs, ostensibly for the third aircraft carrier, which may be a CATOBAR ops carrier instead of STOBAR. The MiG-29K is a STOBAR fighter and cannot operate off a CATOBAR carrier.

The indigenous TEDBF is aimed directly at replacing the MiG-29K. If you wait 2 weeks you'll see it's preliminary weight specs are exactly in the MiG-29K ballpark.

 

[Yasser76]

The Indian Navy wants to look for 36 Rafale or F/A-18 E/Fs, ostensibly for the third aircraft carrier, which may be a CATOBAR ops carrier instead of STOBAR. The MiG-29K is a STOBAR fighter and cannot operate off a CATOBAR carrier.

The indigenous TEDBF is aimed directly at replacing the MiG-29K. If you wait 2 weeks you'll see it's preliminary weight specs are exactly in the MiG-29K ballpark.

Ah, and so a new internet "super fighter" is born in India. New TEDBF can beat everything China and Pakistan has and will be better than Super Hornet, will equip 8 IN Squadrons and have a Klingon cloaking device.

Just do not ask to see it fly....