MiGs over Kargil: How the Fulcrum buzzed the Falcons

[notorious_eagle]

Yes, they claimed.

But as we knew then, and as they also know today, it was planned by the army chief himself, and was an operation to capture Indian territory, planned by the highest war planners in the land, including their corps commanders (who basically run Pakistan). And yet they did not dare to use their air force. Not because individual pilots were afraid to fight, but because in the overall picture, PAF stood no chance.

If the PAF had parity with the IAF, they would have used it. Like they did in their previous attempt to take Kashmir in 1965. Then too, similar story of "freedom fighters" was put out. But the PAF did not hesitate to attack Indian bases then.

Although Oscar has done an excellent job answering all the queries, let me answer this.

First of all, PAF was never part of the plan because the Generals wanted the glory for themselves. PA General Staff did not even bother to show the PAF their plans as the Khakis did not consider the PAF boys their intellectual equal. PAF till the last minute had no idea what PA was planning, all they had were vague ideas and would be brushed aside by the Generals upon inquiries.

The reason why PAF was not used, as this would have raised up the level of confrontation and at no point did the IAF intrude PAF's airspace and engaged them. You are right, PAF at the time would have struggled against the IAF in the Indian air space but not so in the Pakistani border. A defensive war PAF would have happily fought, and would have caused a lot of attrition for the Indians. Anyways, after Kargil relations between the PA and PAF fell to an all time low. It was only under General Kiyani and AVM Suleman that relations have improved and the new synergy achieved between both these forces is simply outstanding.

 

[livingdead]

As i already mentioned war will happen.... Not this year though.... My question to all seniors (not by no. of post but by age of brain) tell me will india give kashmir to pakistan? Answear is a 'Never'.... Now tell me what makes u think pakistan wont do any cowardly act again? They will.... so india cant lip service again.... The war will happen as its on cards (america want india to war pakistan so they get a chance to push china further backwards as they dont want china to pose a threat).... i have seen Pakistan running around in U.N for help but U.N Wont help them.... Only uk would as the uk pm want revenge of MMRCA deal.... But uk will be silenced by india's political reach around world.... War is hell but without war pakistan wont end terrorism.... Everything has to end.... So will terrorism.... The war will happen.... Its not 'IF' but 'When'.... it will be before 2015....

War will not stop terrorism, international sanction might stop pakistani state sponsored terrorism but their NGOs will still be active. Indian civilian leadership is not spineless as most presume. The only way we can start a war is by pushing pakistan to start a war.

Ontopic: PAF could not enter the war because they were denying till the end that its not their regulars who have occupied the heights but mujahids. Only way they would have done so if India had attacked or bombed inside pakistani territory.

 

[Pfpilot]

The F-16 lock on incident was first thrown to light by Cecil Chaudhry in a casual interview to a gentleman writing on about the Kargil war . I was fortunate enough to get a more through run down on the incident from a gentleman from that squadron.

There was a CAP of F-16's flying near the border of which the no-2 was a relatively new F-16 pilot(a rising star so to speak) who had recently converted into the F-16. On the opposite side, he was locked on by what was most likely a Mig-29 .. Now the warning starts going off in his cockpit and tries some basic maneuvers that he recalled which are used to break the lock of a Pulse-Doppler radar using its weaknesses(rapid changes in velocity(speed/direction)). These however did not work too well as the mig kept re-establishing the lock.
Now hearing imagine hearing 0:03 sound in the video in your head constantly and you will realize why the said pilot got flustered since he could not cross the border to close in and engage nor could he keep diving into the clouds to try and use mountains as cover since he would probably have CFIT'd.

A good account of the PAF and perhaps even the IAF may be taken from ACdre Kaiser Tufail's blog .. I hope he does not mind me reproducing some elements of it here.



taken from
Aeronaut: Kargil Conflict and Pakistan Air Force

All credit to ACdre Kaiser Tufail.

This post has to be the preeminent argument against the critics(myself included) of the jf-17. The Kargil scenario must weigh heavily on the minds of the PAF, since it relegated the force to a nonentity in the conflict. The limitations imposed by the restrictive sanctions and technologically obsolete aircraft left the PAF with little flexibility and even lesser capability.

In a repeat of a Kargil scenario, complete with an overconfident army with a plan only for a surprise attack and nothing beyond, the PAF would be in a wholly different situation. While cross border strikes against Indian targets may be dreams of a gloriously perceived distant past and too audacious today considering the overall might of India, the protection of Pakistani troops physically and from a morale standpoint is an important reality. Along with the advantages of an exponential leap in capabilities over the f-7s, we have an aircraft that will be present in the numbers that may allow for the kind of calculated risks that have the potential to snatch victory (or at least dignity) from the jaws of defeat.

It's a massive improvement over the last decade in any case. Off course the IAF has improved at an even greater pace, but that window of air superiority over large swaths of Kashmir is unlikely to open again, anytime soon. The floor, if not the ceiling of the PAF's war fighting capability has increased greatly and that matters more than people (again, myself included) have been willing to admit.

 

[Alphacharlie]

Give it a rest mate, your airforce conducted operations within it's own borders hence there was no reason for the PAF to engage the IAF.....but as soon as a MiG-21 and a MiG-27 made the mistake of crossing the border, both were ultimately shot down albeit in this case by the PA. !! Locking up each other happened from both sides but did it produce any results.... NO. !!
So what's big deal in aircraft flying within it's own airspace and unable to open fire......happens all the time over Adriatic and Sea of Japan. !!

Again Rubbish.

Mig 27 piloted by Flt Nachiketa had engine flame out . Sqn Ldr (Late) Ajay Ahuja went to check on him was shot upon by ANZA. Mig 21 was shot in our Territory- Get your Facts Clear.

TAGRA RAHO

 

[Alphacharlie]

This post has to be the preeminent argument against the critics(myself included) of the jf-17. The Kargil scenario must weigh heavily on the minds of the PAF, since it relegated the force to a nonentity in the conflict. The limitations imposed by the restrictive sanctions and technologically obsolete aircraft left the PAF with little flexibility and even lesser capability.

In a repeat of a Kargil scenario, complete with an overconfident army with a plan only for a surprise attack and nothing beyond, the PAF would be in a wholly different situation. While cross border strikes against Indian targets may be dreams of a gloriously perceived distant past and too audacious today considering the overall might of India, the protection of Pakistani troops physically and from a morale standpoint is an important reality. Along with the advantages of an exponential leap in capabilities over the f-7s, we have an aircraft that will be present in the numbers that may allow for the kind of calculated risks that have the potential to snatch victory (or at least dignity) from the jaws of defeat.

It's a massive improvement over the last decade in any case. Off course the IAF has improved at an even greater pace, but that window of air superiority over large swaths of Kashmir is unlikely to open again, anytime soon. The floor, if not the ceiling of the PAF's war fighting capability has increased greatly and that matters more than people (again, myself included) have been willing to admit.

Must appeciate for Factual correctness & one of the Most unbiased Articles - Good Man

 

[newdelhinsa]

Musharraf briefed all stake holders few times during Kargil war.

Reading few Pakistani posters make things more funny the way they are saying, na na PAF ka kya kaam tha Kargil war main.

Good keep you Air force in shelters for next wars as well.

 

[dbc]

Look, that is the question I am posing to you. Why is it that their war planners planned for such an objective, deciding not to involve the PAF at all? The war was their idea, and an air force is meant to help, not simply do combat air patrols over territories that are not at war.

Pakistan never intended to start a war over Kargil. Pakistan did underestimate Indian reaction to the incursion and did not expect India to employ air power to clear the peaks. There have been several incidents of cross border raids and incursions by both India and Pakistan between 1971 and 1999 most notable was India's successful grab of Saichen in 1984, neither side used air power until Kargil. Above all, IAF involvement was ruled out by Pakistan because the use of air power for high altitude warfare had no precedence until Kargil and is still considered ineffective.

Combat at altitudes approaching 18,000 feet (5,485 m) above sea level between India and Pakistan at Kargil illustrates the timeless nature of high altitude warfare. U.S. combat experiences in the mountains of Afghanistan in 2002 parallel those of the combatants at Kargil despite the overwhelming technological advantage of U.S. forces. Trained and well-equipped light infantry is the only force capable of decisive maneuver in mountainous terrain. Heavy volumes of responsive firepower, in concert with bold maneuver, determine victory. Artillery, rather than air power, remains the preferred source of firepower to support ground maneuver.

- Captain Marcus P. Acosta, United States Army HIGH ALTITUDE WARFARE: THE KARGIL CONFLICT AND THE FUTURE

http://www.nps.edu/Academics/Centers/CCC/Research/StudentTheses/Acosta03.pdf

The fact that they did not plan to use the PAF at all is because IAF was no match for them. Yes, IAF did enjoy complete superiority. Don't just look at what was on paper. Look at what Pakistani members said earlier about the PAF being under sanctions. Their entire fleet was near being grounded for want of spares, and could have done precious few sorties. So yes, the IAF enjoyed supremacy over them in every way in terms of ability to conduct repeated offensive sorties.

That is the reason they did not do a 1965. Not because of choice, but because of the ground reality.

PAF did not want to deplete its war reserves of F-16 spares, war reserves are typically planned to support at least thirty days of intense fighting. Given the short distance between IAF Migs and PAF F-16's BVR combat was not a significant factor in May 1999. A limited air battle over Kargil between the IAF and PAF would have been inconclusive with both sides taking losses and not achieving anything to justify the loss of men and equipment.

 

[Juice]

I have always had the highest respect for the IAF Fulcrums and the men who fly them!

Me too....anyone who would face western fighters in those death-traps has gonads.

 

[janon]

Me too....anyone who would face western fighters in those death-traps has gonads.

Did you read the thread, or at least its title? It is about how your pilots in those "western fighters" had to flee like fleas from the fulcrums. Are you implying something about your pilots, that they seriously lacked gonads, since they were in western fighters and yet had to flee?

 

[Juice]

Did you read the thread, or at least its title? It is about how your pilots in those "western fighters" had to flee like fleas from the fulcrums. Are you implying something about your pilots, that they seriously lacked gonads, since they were in western fighters and yet had to flee?[/Q Americans fled from fulcrums? When? Because when you say "my pilots" ...you can only mean American. If you want to make us flee...bring it.

 

[janon]

Americans fled from fulcrums? When?

Ha ha ha. Still pretending to be American, after we have pointed out so many reasons how we know you are not? Remember, I even wrote you a three paragraph post on how you so often give away the fact that you are not American. Dude, everyone knows your nationality. Don't be so ashamed of it.

Now please answer the question. You said that only brave people would dare to face F-16s in mig 29s. And yet the topic of the thread is about how pilots in F-16s had to flee from mig 29s. Logically, assuming your premise is true, what conclusion can we draw about the pilots in the F-16s?

A case where you can't escape the logical conclusions of your own statement, so you immediately shift the discussion to yet another one about your nationality. Which we both (and everybody else) know anyway.

 

[MilSpec]

Me too....anyone who would face western fighters in those death-traps has gonads.

sure.... whatever floats your boat....

 

[karan.1970]

this is now western fighters vs russian one ??

well, we have western fighters of our own too.. And the ones that excelled the most in kargil were the Mirages.. No?

 

[Juice]

Brilliant.... world does need more people like you..... Not even a drop of asian polutant.. but still bit(hing on an asian forum.... thats pride for sure.... jacka$$!!!



Really you expect this jacka$$ to know the capabilities of mig29's....

Me is no know how dese airoplane tingys done work....please splain.

 

[janon]

I am extremely proud of my nationality and race, god's own white American. Not even a drop of polluting asian. (ps...can you give me a link to the threads that say otherwise? Would love to see them. I can see why you would say that...as the Indians must the me Pakistani...and vise-versa. Ask the Pakistanis if they think I am on of them, or the Chinese, bangla, etc.)

Before I do that, why don't you answer the question that is more to the topic of the thread? About falcons fleeing from the fulcrums, and you saying that only very brave pilots would fly fulcrums against falcons?

You always do this. Make a stupid statement who's logical conclusion you don't like, and when that is pointed to you, you immediately start some racist tripe about god's race and polluting Asians, in the hope that other people here would start bashing you for racism, instead of the original statement.

You seriously "lack gonads" (to uuse your term) to follow your own arguments through. I am not interested in your pretended racist card, which you think is an escape-from-having to answer-the-real-question card each time. Your attempt at starting a racist flame war is pathetic, and transparent.