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MiGs over Kargil: How the Fulcrum buzzed the Falcons

:rofl: Nice science fiction! Seems you've been reading lots of Tom Clancy trash of late and too many comics too! Get serious and stop posting baloney for a change and wasting everyone's' time..

The only crap lodged is in your upper crust, you are never able to counter in a decent manner hence just resort to cheap one liners.....get a life. !!
 
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The MiG-29 forms three operational squadrons (No.28, No.47 and No.223) in the IAF. A fourth squadron was expected to be raised, however plans for that have been scrapped. IAF MiG-29s have had their share of technical problems, since its induction in 1986. In 1994, a joint aviation venture, the Indo-Russian Aviation Private Ltd., in maintenance & support was set up by HAL and MiG-MAPO and the technical problems were rectified to a satisfactory level. SIPRI (Stockholm International Peace Research Institute) reports that eight MiG-29S Fulcrum-Cs were ordered in 1994 and were delivered by 1996. Also from a SIPRI report is a 1995 order of two MiG-29UB Fulcrum-Bs, which were delivered by 1996.
 
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YOU MEAN CHINESE ONES that even the pakistan thinks is ok ok..... Reported in March 2007 to have been tested and evaluated by PAF, and found to be "fairly good" but some improvements were desired in both platform and radar.

Just for your Info. Two Chinese AWAC are flying in Pakistan. And Rest two will arrive next year.!
 
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The only crap lodged is in your upper crust, you are never able to counter in a decent manner hence just resort to cheap one liners.....get a life. !!

Heartiest congratulations! In above post you indeed managed to post cr@p while not resorting on cheap one liners. you used a two liner, with your " get a life! " sentence! you have truly become "elite"!
 
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Yes India was but not as badly effected as Pakistan. Huge difference.... India was getting all the goodies from Russia and Israel. I mean you got mighty Fulcrums, Flankers and mirages in those sanctions right?? where as Pakistan was denied even spares to keep its old F-16s in air. Plus china wasn't producing anything better than mig-21s therefore in 1999 PAF was in quite a bad shape but as of now things are better... and in near future as more options would be available from a single source only (China) things would get much better.

Hey I thought China tested their J11 in 1990 itself ;) :lol:

Their objective was limited war to take a strategic mountain peek overlooking Indian supply lines to crucial forward areas.
They had no intention of escalating this to a full blown conflict. A secondary objective was to internationalize the Kashmir issue by claiming local insurgency, natives waging a war against an occupying force. They went to great lengths to conceal their involvement under such circumstances providing air support to their forces on the mountain was ruled out during the planning phase of the operation.

Please quantify this term called limited.. for god's sake they occupied more than 150 Indian outposts and you call that limited ? LOL

And coming to your point of PAF being ruled out in planning phase, pray tell me why did they do so ? Since they thought IAF wouldn't engage at those heights. PERIOD !! Hence, PAF chief was shut out of the plan. ( Basically the plan sucked )

Internationalize the "local conflict" ? Like what.. calling the commander from Beijing and then getting caught with pants down :lol: . Mushy did play it fast and loose .. so much for "great tactical war plan"
 
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Give it a rest mate, your airforce conducted operations within it's own borders hence there was no reason for the PAF to engage the IAF.....but as soon as a MiG-21 and a MiG-27 made the mistake of crossing the border, both were ultimately shot down albeit in this case by the PA. !! Locking up each other happened from both sides but did it produce any results.... NO. !!
So what's big deal in aircraft flying within it's own airspace and unable to open fire......happens all the time over Adriatic and Sea of Japan. !!

The difference was R-27 and R-77.

You lock us with what? visual range?
 
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Pakistan claimed they were freedom fighters, freedom fighters don't have an air force.

Two problems with this line of reasoning.

First. This farce of freedom fighters was broken long before the battle was over. Infact their regular soldiers were taking the pounding. Why didn't they interfere to atleast give a semblance of protection. By some accounts PA lost well over 3000 men.

Secondly. IAF did not cross the LOC however a gauntlet was thrown and any sovereign self respecting nation would have responded in kind. They didnt.

So as usual the same silly excuses. Same hogwash. Same lies just to keep pretence of HEY WE COULD DO IT. WE JUST DIDNT. BECAUSE......
 
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Their objective was limited war to take a strategic mountain peek overlooking Indian supply lines to crucial forward areas.
They had no intention of escalating this to a full blown conflict. A secondary objective was to internationalize the Kashmir issue by claiming local insurgency, natives waging a war against an occupying force. They went to great lengths to conceal their involvement under such circumstances providing air support to their forces on the mountain was ruled out during the planning phase of the operation.

Their 'objectives' were not met. They ended up losing thousands of men and their face.
They 'believed' GOI would behave in a particular manner. The conflict will be localized. It didnt happen.
They misread our capability and resolve.
Not to mention they infact did us a service by burying the kashmir issue deep. Forget about internatonalizing it.

Secondly
What you call concealing we call blatant shameless lying. That incident and a few others are the reason why Pakistan enjoys zero credibility. THAT IS THE REASON when pakistan says we didn't chop off the head of that poor soldier and didn't violate Geneva convention. we KNOW they are lying.

and wtf is the planning stage of operation ! You are a Jr. Think tank. Seriously! What stage of planning. Was it during the time when PA was planning and PAF was kept out. Or the time when PAF were planning the operation separately.
 
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Kargil war was between few hundred mujahideen and full indian army, airforce and their allies

I dont know why indian so proud about it rather than hidding face in shame
 
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Their 'objectives' were not met. They ended up losing thousands of men and their face.
They 'believed' GOI would behave in a particular manner. The conflict will be localized. It didnt happen.
They misread our capability and resolve.
Not to mention they infact did us a service by burying the kashmir issue deep. Forget about internatonalizing it.

Secondly
What you call concealing we call blatant shameless lying. That incident and a few others are the reason why Pakistan enjoys zero credibility. THAT IS THE REASON when pakistan says we didn't chop off the head of that poor soldier and didn't violate Geneva convention. we KNOW they are lying.

and wtf is the planning stage of operation ! You are a Jr. Think tank. Seriously! What stage of planning. Was it during the time when PA was planning and PAF was kept out. Or the time when PAF were planning the operation separately.

it's oka dude.. leave it.. The most far reaching outcome of Kargil was neither how IAF pounded PA's uncovered *** nor was how IA valiantly fought but the world stopped buying the baloney called local uprising in Kashmir.

I mean their Chief of staff was caught with his pants down.. utter n00b !!
 
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Indians needs to be constantly suckled to the over exaggerated glory stories-
 
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Indians needs to be constantly suckled to the over exaggerated glory stories-

It's human I guess.... I'm sure when you hear something positive about pakistan, it gives you certain optimism. Honestly speaking we are a nation with many shortfalls, and frustrated over restraint and pragmatic peaceful rhetoric which has over the times overlooked the atrocities committed on our people. Instances of projection of power will definitely provide the vigor to mundane realities of politics...Fulcrum locking a falcon is exactly as exciting as the opposite for the pakistanis. Not less not more....Just vocalization is more because of the quantity of the vocal cords available!
 
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it's oka dude.. leave it.. The most far reaching outcome of Kargil was neither how IAF pounded PA's uncovered *** nor was how IA valiantly fought but the world stopped buying the baloney called local uprising in Kashmir.

I mean their Chief of staff was caught with his pants down.. utter n00b !!

yeah lying through ones *** is now a days known as concealing. !!
 
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It's human I guess.... I'm sure when you hear something positive about pakistan, it gives you certain optimism. Honestly speaking we are a nation with many shortfalls, and frustrated over restraint and pragmatic peaceful rhetoric which has over the times overlooked the atrocities committed on our people. Instances of projection of power will definitely provide the vigor to mundane realities of politics...Fulcrum locking a falcon is exactly as exciting as the opposite for the pakistanis. Not less not more....Just vocalization is more because of the quantity of the vocal cords available!

The F-16 lock on incident was first thrown to light by Cecil Chaudhry in a casual interview to a gentleman writing on about the Kargil war . I was fortunate enough to get a more through run down on the incident from a gentleman from that squadron.

There was a CAP of F-16's flying near the border of which the no-2 was a relatively new F-16 pilot(a rising star so to speak) who had recently converted into the F-16. On the opposite side, he was locked on by what was most likely a Mig-29 .. Now the warning starts going off in his cockpit and tries some basic maneuvers that he recalled which are used to break the lock of a Pulse-Doppler radar using its weaknesses(rapid changes in velocity(speed/direction)). These however did not work too well as the mig kept re-establishing the lock.
Now hearing imagine hearing 0:03 sound in the video in your head constantly and you will realize why the said pilot got flustered since he could not cross the border to close in and engage nor could he keep diving into the clouds to try and use mountains as cover since he would probably have CFIT'd.

A good account of the PAF and perhaps even the IAF may be taken from ACdre Kaiser Tufail's blog .. I hope he does not mind me reproducing some elements of it here.

The IAF deployments in Kashmir, for what came to be known as ‘Operation Safedsagar’, commenced on 15 May with the bulk of operational assets positioned by 18 May. 150 combat aircraft were deployed as follows:

> Srinagar - 34 (MiG-21, MiG-23, MiG-27)
> Awantipur - 28 (MiG-21, MiG-29, Jaguar)
> Udhampur - 12 (MiG-21)
> Pathankot - 30 (MiG-21, MiG-23)
> Adampur - 46 (Mir-2000, MiG-29, Jaguar)

One-third of the aircraft were modern, ‘high-threat’ fighters equipped with Beyond Visual Range (BVR) air-to-air missiles. During the preparatory stage, air defence alert status (5 minutes to scramble from ground) was maintained while Mirage-2000s and Jaguars carried out photo-reconnaissance along the Line of Control (LOC) and aging Canberras carried out electronic intelligence (ELINT) to ferret out locations of PAF air defence sensors. Last minute honing of strafing and rocketing skills was carried out by pilots at an air-to-ground firing range near Leh.

Operations by IAF started in earnest on 26 May, a full 16 days after commencement of Pakistani infiltration across the LOC. The salient feature of this initial phase was strafing and rocketing of the intruders’ positions by MiG-21, MiG-23BN and MiG-27. All operations (except air defence) came to a sudden standstill on 28 May, after two IAF fighters and a helicopter were lost – a MiG-21 and a Mi-17 to Pak Army surface-to-air missiles (SAMs), while a MiG-27 went down due to engine trouble caused by gun gas ingestion during high altitude strafing. (Incidentally, the pilot of the MiG-27 Flt Lt Nachiketa, who ejected and was apprehended, had a tête-à-tête with this author during an interesting ‘interrogation’ session.)

The results achieved by the IAF in the first two days were dismal. Serious restraints seem to have been imposed on the freedom of action of IAF fighters in what was basically a search-and-destroy mission. Lt Gen Mehmud’s rant about a ‘Stinger on every peak’ seemed true. It was obvious that the IAF had under-estimated the SAM threat. The mood in Pak Army circles was that of undiluted elation, and the PAF was expected to sit it out while sharing the khakis’ glee.

The IAF immediately went into a reappraisal mode and came out with GPS-assisted high altitude bombing by MiG-21, MiG-23BN and MiG-27 as a makeshift solution. In the meantime, quick modification on the Mirage-2000 for day/night laser bombing kits (Litening pods) was initiated with the help of Israelis. Conventional bombing that started incessantly after a two-day operational hiatus, was aimed at harassment and denial of respite to the infiltrators, with consequent adverse effects on morale. The results of this part of the campaign were largely insignificant, mainly because the target coordinates were not known accurately; the nature of the terrain too, precluded precision. A few cases of fratricide by IAF led it to be even more cautious.

By 16 June, IAF was able to open up the laser-guided bombing campaign with the help of Jaguars and Mirage-2000. Daily photo-recce along the LOC by Jaguars escorted by Mirage-2000s, which had continued from the beginning of operations, proved crucial to both the aerial bombing campaign as well as the Indian artillery, helping the latter in accurately shelling Pakistani positions in the Dras-Kargil and Gultari Sectors. While the photo-recce missions typically did not involve deliberate border violations, there were a total of 37 ‘technical violations’ (which emanate as a consequence of kinks and bends in the geographical boundaries). Typically, these averaged to a depth of five nautical miles, except on one occasion when the IAF fighters apparently cocked-a-snoot at the PAF and came in 13 miles deep.

The Mirage-2000s scored at least five successful laser-guided bomb hits on forward dumping sites and posts. During the last days of operations which ended on 12 July, it was clear that delivery accuracy had improved considerably. Even though night bombing accuracy was suspect, round-the-clock attacks had made retention of posts untenable for Pakistani infiltrators. Photo-recce of Pakistani artillery gun positions also made them vulnerable to Indian artillery.

The IAF flew a total of 550 strike missions against infiltrator positions including bunkers and supply depots. The coordinates of these locations were mostly picked up from about 150 reconnaissance and communications intelligence missions. In addition, 500 missions were flown for air defence and for escorting strike and recce missions.

While the Indians had been surprised by the infiltration in Kargil, the IAF mobilised and reacted rapidly as the Indian Army took time to position itself. Later, when the Indian Army had entrenched itself, the IAF supplemented and filled in where the artillery could not be positioned in force. Clearly, Army-Air joint operations had a synergistic effect in evicting the intruders.

PAF in a Bind

From the very beginning of Kargil operations, PAF was entrapped by a circumstantial absurdity: it was faced with the ludicrous predicament of having to provide air support to infiltrators already disowned by the Pakistan Army leadership! In any case, it took some effort to impress on the latter that crossing the LOC by fighters laden with bombs was not, by any stretch of imagination, akin to lobbing a few artillery shells to settle scores. There was no doubt in the minds of PAF Air Staff that the first cross-border attack (whether across LOC or the international border) would invite an immediate response from the IAF, possibly in the shape of a retaliatory strike against the home base of the intruding fighters, thus starting the first round. PAF’s intervention meant all-out war: this unmistakable conclusion was conveyed to the Prime Minister, Mr Nawaz Sharif, by the Air Chief in no equivocal terms.

Short of starting an all-out war, PAF looked at some saner options that could put some wind in the sails after doldrums had been hit. Air Marshal Najib Akhtar, the Air Officer Commanding of Air Defence Command was co-opted by the Air Staff to sift the possibilities. Audacious and innovative in equal parts, Air Marshal Najib had an excellent knowledge about our own and the enemy’s Air Defence Ground Environment (ADGE). He had conceived and overseen the unprecedented heli-lift of a low-looking radar to a 12,000-ft mountain top on the forbidding, snow-clad Deosai Plateau. The highly risky operation became possible with the help of some courageous flying by Army Aviation pilots. With good low level radar cover now available up to the LOC, Air Marshal Najib along with the Air Staff focused on fighter sweep (a mission flown to destroy patrolling enemy fighters) as a possible option.

To prevent the mission from being seen as an escalatory step in the already charged atmosphere, PAF had to lure Indian fighters into its own territory, ie Azad Kashmir or the Northern Areas. That done, a number of issues had to be tackled. What if the enemy aircraft were hit in our territory but fell across, providing a pretext to India as a doubly aggrieved party? What if one of our own aircraft fell, no matter if the exchange was one-to-one (or better)? Finally, even if we were able to pull off a surprise, would it not be a one-off incident, with the IAF becoming wiser in quick time? The over-arching consideration was the BVR missile capability of IAF fighters which impinged unfavourably on the mission success probability. The conclusion was that a replication of the famous four-Vampire rout of 1st September 1965 by two Sabres might not be possible. The idea of a fighter sweep thus fizzled out as quickly as it came up for discussion.

While the PAF looked at some offensive options, it had a more pressing defensive issue at hand. The IAF’s minor border violations during recce missions were not of grave consequence in so far as no bombing had taken place in our territory; however, the fact that these missions helped the enemy refine its air and artillery targeting, was, to say the least, disconcerting. There were constant reports of our troops on the LOC disturbed to see, or hear, IAF fighters operating with apparent impunity. The GHQ took the matter up with the AHQ and it was resolved that Combat Air Patrols (CAPs) would be flown by the F-16s operating out of Minhas (Kamra) and Sargodha. This arrangement resulted in less on-station time but was safer than operating out of vulnerable Skardu, which had inadequate early warning in the mountainous terrain; its status as a turn-around facility was, however, considered acceptable for its location. A flight of F-7s was, nonetheless, deployed primarily for point defence of the important garrison town of Skardu as well as the air base.

F-16 CAPs could not have been flown all day long as spares support was limited under the prevailing US sanctions. Random CAPs were resorted to, with a noticeable drop in border violations only as long as the F-16s were on station. There were a few cases of F-16s and Mirage-2000s locking their adversaries with the on-board radars but caution usually prevailed and no close encounters took place. After one week of CAPs, the F-16 maintenance personnel indicated that war reserve spares were being eaten into and that the activity had to be ‘rationalised’, a euphemism for discontinuing it altogether. That an impending war occupied the Air Staff’s minds was evident in the decision by the DCAS (Ops) for F-16 CAPs to be discontinued, unless IAF activity became unbearably provocative or threatening.

Those not aware of the gravity of the F-16 operability problem under sanctions have complained of the PAF’s lack of cooperation. Suffice it to say that if the PAF had been included in the initial planning, this anomaly (along with many others) would have emerged as a mitigating factor against the Kargil adventure. It is another matter that the Army high command did not envisage operations ever coming to such a pass. Now, it was almost as if the PAF was to blame for the Kargil venture spiralling out of control.

It also must be noted too that other than F-16s, the PAF did not have a capable enough fighter for patrolling, as the minimum requirement in this scenario was an on-board airborne intercept radar, exceptional agility and sufficient staying power. F-7s had reasonably good manoeuvrability but lacked an intercept radar as well as endurance, while the ground attack Mirage-III/5s and A-5s were sitting ducks for the air combat mission.

In sum, the PAF found it expedient not to worry too much about minor border violations and instead, conserve resources for the larger conflagration that was looming. All the same, it gave the enemy no pretext for retaliation in the face of any provocation, though this latter stance irked some quarters in the Army that were desperate to ‘equal the match’. Might it strike to some that PAF’s restraint in warding off a major conflagration may have been its paramount contribution to the Kargil conflict?

taken from
Aeronaut: Kargil Conflict and Pakistan Air Force

All credit to ACdre Kaiser Tufail.
 
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As i already mentioned war will happen.... Not this year though.... My question to all seniors (not by no. of post but by age of brain) tell me will india give kashmir to pakistan? Answear is a 'Never'.... Now tell me what makes u think pakistan wont do any cowardly act again? They will.... so india cant lip service again.... The war will happen as its on cards (america want india to war pakistan so they get a chance to push china further backwards as they dont want china to pose a threat).... i have seen Pakistan running around in U.N for help but U.N Wont help them.... Only uk would as the uk pm want revenge of MMRCA deal.... But uk will be silenced by india's political reach around world.... War is hell but without war pakistan wont end terrorism.... Everything has to end.... So will terrorism.... The war will happen.... Its not 'IF' but 'When'.... it will be before 2015....
 
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