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MiGs over Kargil: How the Fulcrum buzzed the Falcons

For people saying PAF did not engage because the war was within the IAF airspace are terribly wrong. The war took place a stones throw away from the LOC. The Tololing, Tigerhill and Jubar battles especially were a jump away from the LOC. MiG-27s and Jaguars inorder to achieve surprise, often flew perpendicular to the LOC and after the collateral bombing run, would end up on the Pakistani side.
 
This incident was confirmed by a third party neutral source, the ACIG group, and it still adores their site Indian Air-to-Air Victories since 1948

May99 223 Sqn MiG-29 G.Chibber Lock-on 2xF-16 ?Sqn/PAF

while the other PAF claims like the F-7+F-16 - Mirage lockon story is just a story of PAF and American-hardware fans.
Pakistani Air-to-Air Victories

The Indian Mig-29 may have locked on to the F-16 but a lock does not guarantee a kill. From the same ACIG Group link you provided to the "third party neutral source". A total of 24 R-27's were fired in the engagement described by ACIG resulting in a grand total of ZERO kills - one Mig-29 went down to the R-73 a IR guided missile. The below incident occurred two month before Kargil, there is no evidence to suggest that the IAF Mig-29s BVR capability was a decisive factor against PAF F-16's in 1999.


With the re-appearance of the EtAF fighters over the battlefield, it became clear to the Eritreans and their Ukrainian instructors, that they would have to fight down the newly-arrived Ethiopian Su-27s, or the ERAF would not be able to effectively support the war effort. Therefore, on the morning of 25 February four MiG-29s were sent to intercept two Su-27s which were patrolling along the front-lines at Badme. Both Sukhois, flown by Ethiopian pilots, detected the appearance of their opponents in time and attempted to disengage, when - all of a sudden - they came under an attack by several R-27/AA-10 missiles. None of the weapons fired by the Eritreans – which were meanwhile inside the Ethiopian airspace – hit, but after evading them, the Ethiopians decided to turn back and fight. The lead, Maj. Workneh, acquired the enemy and fired what was reported as a "salvo" of R-27s, targeting one MiG-29 after the other. However, all the missiles missed and the only result was that the Eritreans were forced to break their attack - only to be pounced by the faster Su-27s.

II Ethiopian Eritrean War, 1998 - 2000 - www.acig.org
 
Sparrows were the ones who scored most kills in the 90s I guess...


With a success rate of .. lets see.. 26 Iraqi aircraft were shot down with AIM-7 missiles, with 71 AIM-7s fired (a hit rate of 37% by the people that manufactured the missile..)... and thats the best the M variant gave.. which was introduced in 82.. compared to that.. the russian counterpart.. the R-27... did not score squat against even its own aircraft... flown by russians..

In other words.. the alamo is a piece of trash.. that it could not best a 50 year old design even then.
 
nothing to brag about ... back in 1999 PAF was a sanctions wrecked air force.. who was barely keeping itself together to pull off do or die mission in case of any aggression from India. Things are different now. PAF is not the same...they have proper early warning systems in hand then there ground based air defence system is highly advanced. Instead of 32 obsolete F-16s there are 64 upgraded and latest f-16s... and then JF-17 is also part of the force. Though not very potent but it still gives PAF a chance to stand. IAF might not have that leverage in near future.

correct .....PAF has got some good weapons now .....the equation is not that unbalanced between IAF and PAF which was earlier. I am sure IAF takes PAF seriously.
 
The Indian Mig-29 may have locked on to the F-16 but a lock does not guarantee a kill. From the same ACIG Group link you provided to the "third party neutral source". A total of 24 R-27's were fired in the engagement described by ACIG resulting in a grand total of ZERO kills - one Mig-29 went down to the R-73 a IR guided missile. The below incident occurred two month before Kargil, there is no evidence to suggest that the IAF Mig-29s BVR capability was a decisive factor against PAF F-16's in 1999.

Can you tell me what which block of F16 was used by USAF in IRAQ?
 
With a success rate of .. lets see.. 26 Iraqi aircraft were shot down with AIM-7 missiles, with 71 AIM-7s fired (a hit rate of 37% by the people that manufactured the missile..)... and thats the best the M variant gave.. which was introduced in 82.. compared to that.. the russian counterpart.. the R-27... did not score squat against even its own aircraft... flown by russians..

In other words.. the alamo is a piece of trash.. that it could not best a 50 year old design even then.

R27's in iraqi a/f were using very unrefined r27R, with semi active seekers, I dont think they had any PRGS seekers also the fact passive versions are quite expensive(nearly twice).

sir, I have a hard time believing that you (one of the most respected individuals on the forum), are implying that IAF would commission vympel missiles even now, when they can easily employ python4, and Magic 530D, Mica, and instead IAF still chooses to go with Vympel R27P/EP/ER and RVV-MD which apparently seem ineffective.
 
Busss isiii technicalities par hiii India keeps on winning ! :rofl:

Don't mention '71 - that was a different paradigm ! :angry:

But seriously I don't know what the objectives, I can only speculate ! I once asked my relative in the Army (who posted with the 12th during Kargil) & he either didn't know what the objectives were or didn't want to tell them to me except saying that whatever they were...they were met ! Sounded like BS to hush up a 10-11 year old kid that was me ! :angry:

I dunno what the objectives were - If it was Internationalizing the Kashmir issue than surely sending a few squads of the SSG into Kashmir masquerading as Kashmiri Mujahideen as part of a well-thought out plan with proper supplies, objectives & intel to pop off a few dozen Indian soldiers here & there over a matter of months along with a sustained media campaign (like you guys do) would have been better !

You can do better than that considering your ex-post :D

As far as Bold part, this comes straight from the Horse's mouth:

the objective of the whole conflict was to cut off the link between Kashmir and Ladakh by hitting National Highway No.1 (NH 1) and cause Indian forces to withdraw from the Siachen Glacier forcing India to negotiate and resolve the decade old Kashmir dispute.

KARGIL CONFLICT

Now i ask you, were these objectives achieved???

+ I think Oscar's post more than clarify things.
 
The Indian Mig-29 may have locked on to the F-16 but a lock does not guarantee a kill. From the same ACIG Group link you provided to the "third party neutral source". A total of 24 R-27's were fired in the engagement described by ACIG resulting in a grand total of ZERO kills - one Mig-29 went down to the R-73 a IR guided missile. The below incident occurred two month before Kargil, there is no evidence to suggest that the IAF Mig-29s BVR capability was a decisive factor against PAF F-16's in 1999.




II Ethiopian Eritrean War, 1998 - 2000 - www.acig.org

Okay, so you are comparing a professional Airforce like the IAF with the Ethiopian Air Force which does even have properly trained pilots, and hired mercenaries with god knows how their skills were. And not to mention the crucial aspect that these airforces care jack squat about their (missile) maintenance and storage facilities. And i dont have to remind everyone of AA missiles storage and maintanance and their degradation if not properly stored.
 
You can do better than that considering your ex-post :D

As far as Bold part, this comes straight from the Horse's mouth:



KARGIL CONFLICT

Now i ask you, were these objectives achieved???

+ I think Oscar's post more than clarify things.

I never was quite good with 'pronouns' - Horse's mouth my arse ! :D

I still maintain that I really don't know what the objectives were but if what you say is correct then I maintain that surely a better policy could have been used to that effect (like the one I mentioned above) otherwise no, if those were the objectives, they weren't met !
 
Okay, so you are comparing a professional Airforce like the IAF with the Ethiopian Air Force which does even have properly trained pilots, and hired mercenaries with god knows how their skills were. And not to mention the crucial aspect that these airforces care jack squat about their (missile) maintenance and storage facilities. And i dont have to remind everyone of AA missiles storage and maintanance and their degradation if not properly stored.

Whatever BVR or other missiles were deployed during Kargil is irrelevant since the only kills were achieved through the Anza shoulder launched weapons.
 
Whatever BVR or other missiles were deployed during Kargil is irrelevant since the only kills were achieved through the Anza shoulder launched weapons.

What an argument...all 11 players played,but only Messi scored a goal.So,whats the point in putting other 10 players in the field?only Messi should play... :D
 
What an argument...all 11 players played,but only Messi scored a goal.So,whats the point in putting other 10 players in the field?only Messi should play... :D

It would have only mattered if there was a game on.

As i said elsewhere, the IAF carried out operations within it's territory, hence there was no reason for the PAF to challenge them but as soon as it crossed the border, the Anza made short work of the intruders..... no macabre was exactly played out between the two airforces. !!
 
It would have only mattered if there was a game on.

As i said elsewhere, the IAF carried out operations within it's territory, hence there was no reason for the PAF to challenge them but as soon as it crossed the border, the Anza made short work of the intruders..... no macabre was exactly played out between the two airforces. !!

oh yes of course.. and trust our enemy that our borders will not be violated by them while we continue to fight a war with the same enemy for..wait for it...border violation and intrusion!!

Tell me something..Does everybody in Pakistan think as logically as you or you are a special case ?
 
It would have only mattered if there was a game on.

As i said elsewhere, the IAF carried out operations within it's territory, hence there was no reason for the PAF to challenge them but as soon as it crossed the border, the Anza made short work of the intruders..... no macabre was exactly played out between the two airforces. !!

Yeehooo!!!!! Mr ATC operator,I got something for you ,:P

Finally, even if we were able to pull off a surprise, would it not be a one-off incident, with the IAF becoming wiser in quick time? The over-arching consideration was the BVR missile capability of IAF fighters which impinged unfavourably on the mission success probability. While the PAF looked at some offensive options, it had a more pressing defensive issue at hand. The IAF’s minor border violations during recce missions were not of grave consequence in so far as no bombing had taken place in our territory; however, the fact that these missions helped the enemy refine its air and artillery targeting, was, to say the least, disconcerting. There were constant reports of our troops on the LOC disturbed to see, or hear, IAF fighters operating with apparent impunity. ;)The GHQ took the matter up with the AHQ and it was resolved that Combat Air Patrols (CAPs) would be flown by the F-16s operating out of Minhas (Kamra) and Sargodha. This arrangement resulted in less on-station time but was safer than operating out of vulnerable Skardu, which had inadequate early warning in the mountainous terrain; its status as a turn-around facility was, however, considered acceptable for its location. A flight of F-7s was, nonetheless, deployed primarily for point defence of the important garrison town of Skardu as well as the air base.

F-16 CAPs could not have been flown all day long as spares support was limited under the prevailing US sanctions. Random CAPs were resorted to, with a noticeable drop in border violations only as long as the F-16s were on station. There were a few cases of F-16s and Mirage-2000s locking their adversaries with the on-board radars but caution usually prevailed and no close encounters took place. After one week of CAPs, the F-16 maintenance personnel indicated that war reserve spares were being eaten into and that the activity had to be ‘rationalised’, a euphemism for discontinuing it altogether. That an impending war occupied the Air Staff’s minds was evident in the decision by the DCAS (Ops) for F-16 CAPs to be discontinued, unless IAF activity became unbearably provocative or threatening.

Those not aware of the gravity of the F-16 operability problem under sanctions have complained of the PAF’s lack of cooperation. Suffice it to say that if the PAF had been included in the initial planning, this anomaly (along with many others) would have emerged as a mitigating factor against the Kargil adventure. It is another matter that the Army high command did not envisage operations ever coming to such a pass. Now, it was almost as if the PAF was to blame for the Kargil venture spiralling out of control.

It also must be noted too that other than F-16s, the PAF did not have a capable enough fighter for patrolling, as the minimum requirement in this scenario was an on-board airborne intercept radar, exceptional agility and sufficient staying power. F-7s had reasonably good manoeuvrability but lacked an intercept radar as well as endurance, while the ground attack Mirage-III/5s and A-5s were sitting ducks for the air combat mission.

Aeronaut: Kargil Conflict and Pakistan Air Force
 
oh yes of course.. and trust our enemy that our borders will not be violated by them while we continue to fight a war with the same enemy for..wait for it...border violation and intrusion!!

Tell me something..Does everybody in Pakistan think as logically as you or you are a special case ?

I wasn't the one on the advisory panel, nor the wars are fought with a pre-requeste, and it's not as if violation wasn't exactly carried out by the IAF......General Musharraff in his interview pointed this out to put many minds to rest.
However you seem a special case in assuming what could have happened rather than focusing on what did actually took place over a decade earlier.
 

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