Mid life upgrade of Zulfiqar class frigates

[FuturePAF]

Instead of acting intellectually physedulic, help yourself and google it.

Find below to suffice you ....

First 'Sea Sultan' Maritime Patrol Aircraft Joins Pakistan Navy - Naval News

The Pakistan Navy inducted its first of three modern maritime patrol aircraft (MPA) dubbed locally as "Sea Sultan" and designated "Long Range Maritime Patrol jet".

www.navalnews.com

"The Sea Sultan is based on Embraer’s Lineage 1000E business jet, which is a variant of the Embraer 190 regional airliner. The Lineage 1000E has a range of 8,500 km, a maximum speed of Mach 0.82, a service ceiling og 41,000 ft and a 120,000 lb MTOW. According to Defense News, Italy’s Leonardo was in charge of the conversion of three aircraft, but a follow-on contract is expected to bring the total number of Sea Sultans MPA to 10."

“Intellectually Psychedelic”


Here is more of those psychedelic thoughts:

I ask because Pakistan is also considering the Havasoj from turkey, and was wondering if Pakistanis procuring so many MPAs, 10 platforms, why not merge the two projects so that the SEA Sultan’s carry the equipment intended for the Havasoj akin to the P-8 AGS.

Not only could the Sea Sultan perform MPA duties but EW/ELINT/COMINT duties and have the jamming capabilities on board to deal with enemy electronics or even some missiles by frying their electronics before the missiles could attack them or friendly assets in the area. The MPA presumably would fly a few hundred Km off the Indian coast can with multiple sensor packages on board could get a wider variety of data, while only flying one platform type.

If the electrical power is not sufficient to do this with the acquisition of currently planned lineage 1000e, the last few planes should be switched to a variant of the 190/195 E2, with its more powerful engines providing more electrical power.

With its bomb bay, the Sea Sultan, especially with an airborne jammer functioning as a GMTI Radar, could launch PGM strikes or launch jammer decoys, independent of other platforms.

Furthermore, the Lineage 1000E could serve as both the platform for any future procurement of the Globaleye AWE&C and possibly a lighter jet passenger plane in the PIA fleet for tourism to the northern areas that need a jet plane but one that can land on shorter runways like Chitral.

 

[MIRauf]

“Intellectually Psychedelic”


Here is more of those psychedelic thoughts:

I ask because Pakistan is also considering the Havasoj from turkey, and was wondering if Pakistanis procuring so many MPAs, 10 platforms, why not merge the two projects so that the SEA Sultan’s carry the equipment intended for the Havasoj akin to the P-8 AGS.

Not only could the Sea Sultan perform MPA duties but EW/ELINT/COMINT duties and have the jamming capabilities on board to deal with enemy electronics or even some missiles by frying their electronics before the missiles could attack them or friendly assets in the area. The MPA presumably would fly a few hundred Km off the Indian coast can with multiple sensor packages on board could get a wider variety of data, while only flying one platform type.

If the electrical power is not sufficient to do this with the acquisition of currently planned lineage 1000e, the last few planes should be switched to a variant of the 190/195 E2, with its more powerful engines providing more electrical power.

With its bomb bay, the Sea Sultan, especially with an airborne jammer functioning as a GMTI Radar, could launch PGM strikes or launch jammer decoys, independent of other platforms.

Furthermore, the Lineage 1000E could serve as both the platform for any future procurement of the Globaleye AWE&C and possibly a lighter jet passenger plane in the PIA fleet for tourism to the northern areas that need a jet plane but one that can land on shorter runways like Chitral.

I agree with you, Sea Sultan should have all if not most of these capabilities you have mentioned.

PN has extensive experience with P-3C and the PN P-3C platform performs quite a few of the tasks that you have mentioned. It would be surprising that the PN doesn't opt to have all if not most of these capabilities you mentioned in the Sea Sultan if Sea Sultan is to be the replacement for the PN's P-3Cs.

Now if the Sea Sultan project is just a glorified ASW and Anti-Sub platform then the top brass ( past present ) needs to be lined up and spanked perhaps.

 

[FuturePAF]

I agree with you, Sea Sultan should have all if not most of these capabilities you have mentioned.

PN has extensive experience with P-3C and the PN P-3C platform performs quite a few of the tasks that you have mentioned. It would be surprising that the PN doesn't opt to have all if not most of these capabilities you mentioned in the Sea Sultan if Sea Sultan is to be the replacement for the PN's P-3Cs.

Now if the Sea Sultan project is just a glorified ASW and Anti-Sub platform then the top brass ( past present ) needs to be lined up and spanked perhaps.

It just goes to reason they might as well go all the way with the Embraer option (especially when Embraer is desperately looking for customers on some of its newest jets).

If they are in for 10 Embraer MPA, have at least 4 as MPA+EW variants, then add a further 3-4 platforms as Global eye platforms, a couple more as PIA planes for the high volume tourist locations in the north, where quick flights (on a jet plane that can land there) to our most desirable tourism locations from major hubs in the region (Istanbul to GCC). Build out the maintenance faculties domestically so that we become a partner for Embraer in the region and recoup some of the investment into these planes.

 

[MIRauf]

It just goes to reason they might as well go all the way with the Embraer option (especially when Embraer is desperately looking for customers on some of its newest jets).

If they are in for 10 Embraer MPA, have at least 4 as MPA+EW variants, then add a further 3-4 platforms as Global eye platforms, a couple more as PIA planes for the high volume tourist locations in the north, where quick flights (on a jet plane that can land there) to our most desirable tourism locations from major hubs in the region (Istanbul to GCC). Build out the maintenance faculties domestically so that we become a partner for Embraer in the region and recoup some of the investment into these planes.

It requires long term thinking, something lacking at times in Pak case. Sadly for PN, they get short end of the stick most of the times and then end up with just bread crumbs when it comes to Military Inc funds. I do hope that this time they are able to pull 10 odd Sea Sultans platforms with as good as P-3C capabilities or better.

 

[HRK]

4 x Jinnah class FFG (According to ex-chief interview, PN had 6 planned, but there are rumors' that it was changed to 8, time will tell.)

View attachment 941813

Just for sake of record

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2824862584452430

 

[time pass]

Just for sake of record

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2824862584452430

View attachment 943269

This video clip is from the launch of the third Milgem on October 25, 2020.

You may find the news from April 27, 2022, below, where AFSAT was selected for the design specifications, including tonnage, weapon packages, sensors etc.

Pakistan Navy has designs on Jinnah-class frigates | Shephard

Pakistan is on to a good thing with Turkey as it gains experience in warship design and construction, moving from the Babur class towards the Jinnah c

www.shephardmedia.com

"The Pakistan Navy (PN) will build six Jinnah-class frigates with Turkish assistance. On 21 April, SSI announced that its Ship Constructor software had been selected for the engineering and detailed design solution of this new class."

 

[time pass]

Seeing the space on the deck (pic shared by Ghazi52), following weapons package would be ideal for upcoming MLU...

• 16/24 VLS - CAMM-ER (if not MR) in place of FM90
• Should have 3x6 AshM (CM-302) instead of 2x4 (CM802)
• Replace CIWS 730 with 1130 on both sides of hanger
• 16 missile salvo of HHQ-10 on top of the hangar
• Replace YU-7 in stead of ET-52C torpedo in 2x3 launcher

With an eye towards the introduction of the aforementioned weapon systems, a combination of Chinese, Turkish, and European sensors, radars, and processing systems will be used??

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

View attachment 951644

Seeing the space on the deck (pic shared by Ghazi52), following weapons package would be ideal for upcoming MLU...

• 16/24 VLS - CAMM-ER (if not MR) in place of FM90
• Should have 3x6 AshM (CM-302) instead of 2x4 (CM802)
• Replace CIWS 730 with 1130 on both sides of hanger
• 16 missile salvo of HHQ-10 on top of the hangar
• Replace YU-7 in stead of ET-52C torpedo in 2x3 launcher

With an eye towards the introduction of the aforementioned weapon systems, a combination of Chinese, Turkish, and European sensors, radars, and processing systems will be used??

Although, I would love to see that sort of upgrades but I really don't see PN would spend 100s of millions of dollar on each F-22P. Especially after when it already have got Type-54s and going to receive Baburs.

I see only the possibility of HHQ-10 (or FL-3000N) in place of FM-90. That's all. Just like how chinese did with their earlier Type-54s. The HHQ-10 launcher with missiles and its suite may also cost quite good amount of money. Interestingly, Tughrils don't have HH-Q10s, so F-22P will be a valueable asset when tagging along with the Tughrils. May provide some alternate point defense missiles for itself and any ship in proximity.

 

[time pass]

Although, I would love to see that sort of upgrades but I really don't see PN would spend 100s of millions of dollar on each F-22P. Especially after when it already have got Type-54s and going to receive Baburs.

I see only the possibility of HHQ-10 (or FL-3000N) in place of FM-90. That's all. Just like how chinese did with their earlier Type-54s. The HHQ-10 launcher with missiles and its suite may also cost quite good amount of money. Interestingly, Tughrils don't have HH-Q10s, so F-22P will be a valueable asset when tagging along with the Tughrils. May provide some alternate point defense missiles for itself and any ship in proximity.

First off, don't expect that the above-recommended armament package will cost several hundred million dollars for each ship; instead, it may end up costing at most $500 million for all four ships, which is worth the investment given the capabilities these ships will receive and will be in line with Tughrils.

With a small fleet we need each ship to be as capable of operating independently as possible, thus spending a few million dollars is justified. In contrast to PLAN or IN, which operate in combinations.

 

[arslank03]

I agree with you, Sea Sultan should have all if not most of these capabilities you have mentioned.

PN has extensive experience with P-3C and the PN P-3C platform performs quite a few of the tasks that you have mentioned. It would be surprising that the PN doesn't opt to have all if not most of these capabilities you mentioned in the Sea Sultan if Sea Sultan is to be the replacement for the PN's P-3Cs.

Now if the Sea Sultan project is just a glorified ASW and Anti-Sub platform then the top brass ( past present ) needs to be lined up and spanked perhaps.

“Intellectually Psychedelic”


Here is more of those psychedelic thoughts:

I ask because Pakistan is also considering the Havasoj from turkey, and was wondering if Pakistanis procuring so many MPAs, 10 platforms, why not merge the two projects so that the SEA Sultan’s carry the equipment intended for the Havasoj akin to the P-8 AGS.

Not only could the Sea Sultan perform MPA duties but EW/ELINT/COMINT duties and have the jamming capabilities on board to deal with enemy electronics or even some missiles by frying their electronics before the missiles could attack them or friendly assets in the area. The MPA presumably would fly a few hundred Km off the Indian coast can with multiple sensor packages on board could get a wider variety of data, while only flying one platform type.

If the electrical power is not sufficient to do this with the acquisition of currently planned lineage 1000e, the last few planes should be switched to a variant of the 190/195 E2, with its more powerful engines providing more electrical power.

With its bomb bay, the Sea Sultan, especially with an airborne jammer functioning as a GMTI Radar, could launch PGM strikes or launch jammer decoys, independent of other platforms.

Furthermore, the Lineage 1000E could serve as both the platform for any future procurement of the Globaleye AWE&C and possibly a lighter jet passenger plane in the PIA fleet for tourism to the northern areas that need a jet plane but one that can land on shorter runways like Chitral.

It just goes to reason they might as well go all the way with the Embraer option (especially when Embraer is desperately looking for customers on some of its newest jets).

If they are in for 10 Embraer MPA, have at least 4 as MPA+EW variants, then add a further 3-4 platforms as Global eye platforms, a couple more as PIA planes for the high volume tourist locations in the north, where quick flights (on a jet plane that can land there) to our most desirable tourism locations from major hubs in the region (Istanbul to GCC). Build out the maintenance faculties domestically so that we become a partner for Embraer in the region and recoup some of the investment into these planes.

You are all seemingly forgetting that the actual tender outlined by the PN included all of this. It was for a jet-powered LRMPA that can take on ISR, AEW etc.

Its very clear the PN will seek MPA based AEW like they did with the p3 e2c hybrid they wanted to buy

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

First off, don't expect that the above-recommended armament package will cost several hundred million dollars for each ship; instead, it may end up costing at most $500 million for all four ships, which is worth the investment given the capabilities these ships will receive and will be in line with Tughrils.

With a small fleet we need each ship to be as capable of operating independently as possible, thus spending a few million dollars is justified. In contrast to PLAN or IN, which operate in combinations.

See, you and me would like to see such upgrades and people like us in defence forums remain excited about such things but PN does not think like that. Their priorities are bit different.

I give you an example with the background, when we did not had received 4 Type-54A/P frigates, the fleet was really depleted. We badly needed to equip whatever we could on available hulls but even in such times navy didn't do anything. How we can expect Navy to do such massive armament upgrades when they have already received much more capable ships and going to receive further more. Before Type-54As, We only had 4 F-22Ps, 1 OHP and 2 Yarmooks in large platforms with some endurance. The couple of type-21s had no capability - As I recall on induction of F-22P, than naval chief had said one F-22P is more capable than whole fleet of Type-21s. PN didn't even bothered to arm its first 2 Yarmooks with Harbahs when it really needed most of its available hulls. This is the background on which I say its highly unlikely to see PN carrying out massive upgrades on earlier hulls now. Before F-22Ps, We may see all 4 yarmooks will be armed but that will also take a lot of time.

PN think of not just fighting arm but all of its branches, its residential areas, its medical facilities, the PMSA, its force welfare, the pensions and perhaps is more interested in number of hulls to assign the crew rather than heavily arming each ship. The finance / resource allocation is main issue.

In the warships usually the weapon suits & sensors cost way more than the hulls. A 2500 ton ship without any of weapon suits, sensors, ew, combat systems may cost only 60 - 80 mil dollars. But on average a 2500 ton fully armed corvette with modern western weapon systems & sensors may cost upto 300 - 400 million dollars. So, weapons / sensors drives the cost. Perhaps navy is looking for more number of platforms which are relatively lightly armed than fewer but heavily armed platforms.

 

[arslank03]

PN didn't even bothered to arm its first 2 Yarmooks with Harbahs

This isn't actually true, The PN is arming them, they are being prepared, i suspect PN dockyard is operating on a priority basis as funds are dry at the moment- hence the delay in the babur launch, since it is launched, ksew will then hand it over to PN to do its sensor and weapons fitting. Yarmook is receiving prep for Harbah launchers anyway

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

This isn't actually true, The PN is arming them, they are being prepared, i suspect PN dockyard is operating on a priority basis as funds are dry at the moment- hence the delay in the babur launch, since it is launched, ksew will then hand it over to PN to do its sensor and weapons fitting. Yarmook is receiving prep for Harbah launchers anyway

I never said PN will never do it. I simply said PN didn't acted when the fleet was complete depleted. They might do it now or in near future as It was the plan right from the beginning to arm these ships.

 

[arslank03]

I never said PN will never do it. I simply said PN didn't acted when the fleet was complete depleted. They might do it now or in near future as It was the plan right from the beginning to arm these ships.

because the money wasnt there, nor is there any urgency, you dont need a genius to tell you that war isnt on the cards and hasnt bee on the cards for a while, allowing for some form of complacency/relaxation of guard. Aside from that, the PNs main punch is the subsurface fleet anyway

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

because the money wasnt there, nor is there any urgency, you dont need a genius to tell you that war isnt on the cards and hasnt bee on the cards for a while, allowing for some form of complacency/relaxation of guard. Aside from that, the PNs main punch is the subsurface fleet anyway

Incorrect, there had to be urgency. The money was not there for arming already available ships with already available missiles ?? That's not a sound argument. Why I feel, we are just doing arguments for the sake of arguments. Btw, When the first yarmooks were inducted, not long ago India had bombed Balakot and PAF had striked back. PAF urgently aquired J-10Cs, not a genius but even a common feeling would have sensed that india may have attempted again to level the score that time. Often war does not come announced. Did you or me knew about 26h Feb 2019 would happen, Or did we knew about Kargil? (though it was our General's own misadventure) but peace must never be taken as granted. and ofcourse we agree PN's punch is subs. Cheers