Mi-17 down, 26 troops martyred

[qsaark]

hello Mr. Qsaark

Please read my post again and see what context I said it in. Mr. F said that the soldiers killed will go to Jannat whereas as I said that both the killers as well as the killed (if it was not a crash) were all muslims and both believe in allah. Only Allah knows whom he will accept.

Regards

Indeed Allah knows whom he will accept. But through his messengers like Abraham, and Moses and Jesus and Mohammed, he has told us whom will accept and whom he will not. Theological discussion is beyond the scope of the current thread; hence I will leave it here. If you are further interested in this debate, please go ahead and open up another thread. We can discuss these things there, while let this thread continue on its present course.

 

[Faruqi]

DAWN.COM | Pakistan | Helicopter crash kills 41 security personnel

According to Dawn, the number of deaths may be 41? Isn't that well above the helicopter's seating capacity? Can anyone clarify this?

 

[fhassan]

It is not for me to know who is right as I never met Allah and nor do I wish to.

Know you (all), that the life of this world is but play and amusement, pomp and mutual boasting and multiplying (in rivalry) among yourselves, riches and children. Here is a similitude: How rain and the growth which it brings forth, delight (the hearts of) the tillers; soon it withers; you will see it grow yellow; then it becomes dry and crumbles away. But in the Hereafter is a penalty severe (for the devotees of wrong). And forgiveness from Allah and (His) good pleasure (for the devotees of Allah). And what is the life of this world, but goods and chattels of deception?

(Quran, Surat al-Hadid: 20)

O mankind! If you have doubt about the Resurrection, (consider) that We created you out of dust, then out of a drop, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (Our power) to you; and We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term, then We bring you out as babes, then (foster you) that you may reach your age of full strength; and some of you are called to die, and some are sent back to the feeblest old age, so that they know nothing after having known (much), and (further), you see the earth barren and lifeless, but when We pour rain down on it, it is stirred (to life), it swells, and it puts forth every kind of beautiful growth (in pairs).

(Surat al-Hajj: 5)



English translations of the Qur'an are always messy to read due to the complexity of the Arabic Language. The meaning and poetry is Lost, so best to hear this:

 

[Neo]

Rest in Peace!

 

[qsaark]

Know you (all), that the life of this world is but play and amusement, pomp and mutual boasting and multiplying (in rivalry) among yourselves, riches and children. Here is a similitude: How rain and the growth which it brings forth, delight (the hearts of) the tillers; soon it withers; you will see it grow yellow; then it becomes dry and crumbles away. But in the Hereafter is a penalty severe (for the devotees of wrong). And forgiveness from Allah and (His) good pleasure (for the devotees of Allah). And what is the life of this world, but goods and chattels of deception?

(Quran, Surat al-Hadid: 20)

Please do not bring Quran into this. Alwaysneutral may not be a Muslim so Quranic verses carry no intellectual weight for him. He may be an atheist, so even quoting from Torah or Bible will not move him. Besides, this is all beyond the scope of this thread, so leave it alone.

 

[Faruqi]

Dear F,

I must say you are more clueless than the Taliban. The Mi-17 are used frequently as gunships. The have two rocket pods and a rear machine gun to give covering fire. On another tangent I have heard that the Iraqi insurgents have perfected the act of using a RPG to bring down US Black Hawks. It goes this way

Ps : If the dead are SSG etc than the taliban may have set a trap. If they were just AF people then could be a crash

Yeah, sorry, my mistake. Reports suggest they may have been some regular soldiers on leave.

 

[Always Neutral]

Indeed Allah knows whom he will accept. But through his messengers like Abraham, and Moses and Jesus and Mohammed, he has told us whom will accept and whom he will not. Theological discussion is beyond the scope of the current thread; hence I will leave it here. If you are further interested in this debate, please go ahead and open up another thread. We can discuss these things there, while let this thread continue on its present course.

There is a difference between replying to a post and opening a thread and I hope you know the difference ?

I only replied to Mr. F's statement that may the PA killed go to heaven.

FYI Till date I have only opened one thread i.e. this forum was featured on CNN.

So now lets get back to the topic.

Regards

 

[fhassan]

Please do not bring Quran into this. Alwaysneutral may not be a Muslim so Quranic verses carry no intellectual weight for him.

I will post Qur'an whenever I like, if you feel embarrased then please keep that to yourself.

 

[Always Neutral]

Please do not bring Quran into this. Alwaysneutral may not be a Muslim so Quranic verses carry no intellectual weight for him. He may be an atheist, so even quoting from Torah or Bible will not move him. Besides, this is all beyond the scope of this thread, so leave it alone.

Sir Q

You are astute and right. I am an atheist and the words of all Gods unless spoken in the 4 walls of ones house make no sense.

Yes i agree that I feel bad that so many servicemen were lost in one incident.

What I would however like is that if they were shot down then I hope the person who planned the Ops gets a kick up his butt.

If its a crash then the guy who did safety checks should get a kick up his butt too. No Cover UP

All i want is the truth and thats the best tribute to these good guys who died.

Regards

 

[qsaark]

I will post Qur'an whenever I like, if you feel embarrased then please keep that to yourself.

I am not embarrassed or what. Go ahead; post the whole Quran here if you want. I'll give importance to your argument fortified with Quranic verses because I believe in Quran. But if what you are posting from is not recognized by a person, posting it will not add up any weight to your argument.

 

[fhassan]

posting it will not add up any weight to your argument.

To be honest qsawefercfrkjrk, I have not formulated any arguments whatsoever, and that was not my intention. I have posted for other reasons.

 

[qsaark]

What I would however like is that if they were shot down then I hope the person who planned the Ops gets a kick up his butt.

If its a crash then the guy who did safety checks should get a kick up his butt too. No Cover UP

All i want is the truth and thats the best tribute to these good guys who died.

And this we will learn sooner or later. We have good ears serving in Army on this forum, and if allowed by the regulations, they will let us know what happened. No matter how much I am against certain things about my military, BUT I have firm belief in them that they will never send the sons of my nation on a suicide mission. Mistakes can be made, but not doing proper safety checks etc before the flight is something I am not willing to accept.

 

[qsaark]

To be honest qsawefercfrkjrk, I have not formulated any arguments whatsoever, and that was not my intention. I have posted for other reasons.

This is an interesting way of insulting your fellow countryman who is actually on your side. Anyway, my last post to you.

 

[Neo]

To be honest qsawefercfrkjrk, I have not formulated any arguments whatsoever, and that was not my intention. I have posted for other reasons.

A little civility won't hurt anyone.

 

[wtf]

I am not embarrassed or what. Go ahead; post the whole Quran here if you want. I'll give importance to your argument fortified with Quranic verses because I believe in Quran. But if what you are posting from is not recognized by a person, posting it will not add up any weight to your argument.

Actually it does lend backing to the argument.

First a poster said "those who are killed will go to heaven".
AN asked, "why, do they not belong to the same god" ?
The poster is justified in saying "because I believe in Quran and Quran says so".

AN's argument about "same god" is only valid as long as there is a belief in Quran. If AN disputes the existence of god, then his question is invalid. His question included the statement "they are people of the same god" which clearly is not applicable if there is no god.

Logically speaking, If AN has to dispute the original statement of "those who are killed will go to heaven", he has to say either "There is no heaven", "If there is an (Islamic) god, then god does not choose" or "There is no (Islamic) god, but there is heaven and hell and the choices are not as prescribed in Quran".
The answers to arguments 1 & 3 are clearly not for this thread. Answer to question 3 is a valid quote from Quran.

Fhassan is right, I think. His argument clearly explains how a Muslim can say that Pak Army will go to heaven and the killers will face judgment.

(Sorry for leading the thread more astray.
Statuary disclaimer: I am not an expert in Quran/Islam. )