Mao Zedong vs Chiang Kai-Shek

[ChineseTiger1986]

That is why my brother, I replied to the original poster in the manner I did.... as I rightfully feared that the troublemakers and China haters will used such comparisons to attack again.

We all know in detail who did what and when...

But what matters that China is where China is today...and most important of all is the fact that the Dragon has a date with Destiny...and China will show Virtue and finish the job.

The goal is to become a developed country in the foreseeable future..improve the lives of the Chinese citizen through science, technology and economic development.

The rest is all distraction and not worth our time.

Chinese Communist Party has served and is going to serve China and all Chinese for a long time to come.

The reunification of TW with the motherland would have happened a long time ago had it not been for the known traitors and collaborators...

Patience is Virtue. Time is on China's side.

First the consildation of the Chinese waters and then the return of the Chinese lands under occupation...

Yep, he got debunked/banned multiple times, also got exposed as a troll who pretended to be a professional poster.

That's why he is getting super mad with us.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Whether you like it or not, KMT is part of China’s heritage, and the KMT is still alive today with active members. Please refrain from calling them “lackey”, that is offensive to them. Thank you.

LOL calling the KMT "lackeys" is being kind.

In fact the KMT nowadays means basically the same thing as "traitor".

I went to an International School in Hong Kong and we had an international curriculum, so we learned the same thing that other students learn across the world. This mainstream world history shows that the KMT were cruel to the ordinary people, which is why the common folk supported the CCP and ended up winning them the Chinese Civil War against all the odds.

Even some people here in HK who hate the CCP, they hate the KMT even more than that. If you ask them to choose between the CCP and the KMT there is no question they will still choose the CCP.

 

[William Hung]

You are a well known anti-China troll here, Black Flag.

Your real motivation always got nailed and exposed by the Chinese members, that's why you hate us gut.

Yep, he got debunked/banned multiple times, also got exposed as a troll who pretended to be a professional poster.

That's why he is getting super mad with us.

You are wrong my friend, I don’t get banned often at all, that is testament to my good behaviour and abiding by forum rules. Like I said, all your misconception about me only exists in your head. But I will still show kindness and patient towards you my friends.

Let me give you an example of those rare time I do get warned, I once wrote elaborate posts about how VNese is good friend of China. I got warning for that for trolling or baiting, my “motivation” was doubted. Just recently now a Chinese member visited VN and witnessed what I said was the truth. Like I said, all your speculations and paranoia exists only in your mind. And all these minor bickering is to trivial for me, its getting to old to talk about it.

That is why my brother, I replied to the original poster in the manner I did.... as I rightfully feared that the troublemakers and China haters will used such comparisons to attack again.

We all know in detail who did what and when...

But what matters that China is where China is today...and most important of all is the fact that the Dragon has a date with Destiny...and China will show Virtue and finish the job.

The goal is to become a developed country in the foreseeable future..improve the lives of the Chinese citizen through science, technology and economic development.

The rest is all distraction and not worth our time.

Chinese Communist Party has served and is going to serve China and all Chinese for a long time to come.

The reunification of TW with the motherland would have happened a long time ago had it not been for the known traitors and collaborators...

Patience is Virtue. Time is on China's side.

First the consildation of the Chinese waters and then the return of the Chinese lands under occupation...

Wait, are you agreeing with me or doubting me? I thought you might be able to understand my meta-political thoughts?

LOL calling the KMT "lackeys" is being kind.

In fact the KMT nowadays means basically the same thing as "traitor".

I went to an International School in Hong Kong and we had an international curriculum, so we learned the same thing that other students learn across the world. This mainstream world history shows that the KMT were cruel to the ordinary people, which is why the common folk supported the CCP and ended up winning them the Chinese Civil War against all the odds.

Even some people here in HK who hate the CCP, they hate the KMT even more than that. If you ask them to choose between the CCP and the KMT there is no question they will still choose the CCP.

I think your hatred has clouded your vision, what you have wrote is a narrow way to see things. Let me ask you something to try to expand your horizon:

A lot of Chinese sufferred tremendously in a “cruel” way during Mao’s Cultural Revolution or other “mistakes”. Are you going to say the same thing about Mao and the CCP like you said about the KMT being “cruel”? or are you going to say those suffering and suppression under Mao/CCP was beneficial and necessary?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

You are wrong my friend, I don’t get banned often at all, that is testament to my good behaviour and abiding by forum rules. Like I said, all your misconception about me only exists in your head. But I will still show kindness and patient towards you my friends.

Let me give you an example of those rare time I do get warned, I once wrote elaborate posts about how VNese is good friend of China. I got warning for that for trolling or baiting, my “motivation” was doubted. Just recently now a Chinese member visited VN and witnessed what I said was the truth. Like I said, all your speculations and paranoia exists only in your mind. And all these minor bickering is to trivial for me, its getting to old to talk about it.



Wait, are you agreeing with me or doubting me? I thought you might be able to understand my meta-political thoughts?



I think your hatred has clouded your vision, what you have wrote is a narrow way to see things. Let me ask you something to try to expand your horizon:

A lot of Chinese sufferred tremendously in a “cruel” way during Mao’s Cultural Revolution or other “mistakes”. Are you going to say the same thing about Mao and the CCP like you said about the KMT being “cruel”? or are you going to say those suffering and suppression under Mao/CCP was beneficial and necessary?

I see them as what they are, enormous mistakes that cost countless lives. But they were not done in malice, they were accidents. The same cannot be said for the KMT who is still today courting foreign powers in order to hurt the interests of their own motherland.

Supporting foreign powers (especially the USA) to help to hurt/contain their own motherland, there is no other word to describe them except traitors.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

I see them as what they are, enormous mistakes that cost countless lives. But they were not done in malice, they were accidents. The same cannot be said for the KMT who is still today courting foreign powers in order to hurt the interests of their own motherland.

Supporting foreign powers (especially the USA) to help to hurt/contain their own motherland, there is no other word to describe them except traitors.

Exactly, Mao did make many mistakes, but he didn't have bad intention to hurt the Chinese people from the beginning.

People should realize it was extremely uneasy to fix a totally devastated/looted China from the KMT.

At least Mao had still laid down the industrial foundation for China which gave Deng more cards to reform the economy. Otherwise, how can Deng economically reform a China which was even weaker than India? At least the Brits had left many infrastructures to India during the era of colonization, but what the KMT had left to China so far?

Mao did follow Dr. Sun's legacy and did many things that Dr. Sun couldn't accomplish during his lifetime.

China did make its own H-bomb, ICBM, nuclear sub during Mao's era, these are somethings that most today's countries couldn't still accomplish by themselves apart from the P5 nations.

Some people (anti-China westerners and KMT followers) said that the Chinese people should embrace more about the ROC, but what the ROC/KMT did for China that deserves our commemoration?

Chiang and his faction shouldn't steal all the WWII credits from CPC and other left-wing KMT factions.

 

[Abacin]

You are wrong my friend, I don’t get banned often at all, that is testament to my good behaviour and abiding by forum rules. Like I said, all your misconception about me only exists in your head. But I will still show kindness and patient towards you my friends.

Let me give you an example of those rare time I do get warned, I once wrote elaborate posts about how VNese is good friend of China. I got warning for that for trolling or baiting, my “motivation” was doubted. Just recently now a Chinese member visited VN and witnessed what I said was the truth. Like I said, all your speculations and paranoia exists only in your mind. And all these minor bickering is to trivial for me, its getting to old to talk about it.



Wait, are you agreeing with me or doubting me? I thought you might be able to understand my meta-political thoughts?



I think your hatred has clouded your vision, what you have wrote is a narrow way to see things. Let me ask you something to try to expand your horizon:

A lot of Chinese sufferred tremendously in a “cruel” way during Mao’s Cultural Revolution or other “mistakes”. Are you going to say the same thing about Mao and the CCP like you said about the KMT being “cruel”? or are you going to say those suffering and suppression under Mao/CCP was beneficial and necessary?

You just don't understand the revolution. All permanent members of security coucils had cruel revolutions with many people killed, but all of them are proud of their own revolutions. Countries who do not respect revolutions have to kneel before P5 for a living right in this planet. Revolutions killed those people who tried to block a country's development for their own selfish interests.

When Chinese civilization faced external pressures, people such as CCP decide to self-improve Chinese civilization and stand up to face the pressures, while people such as KMT decide to beg a living from Western pressure. Chinese civilization is a very proud civilization, most people decide to follow CCP. There may be tens of millions of KMT followers, but there are billions of CCP followers.

Just look at Taiwan, Taiwan always buys US trash weapons with higher prices than new ones as protection fees while mainland can produce weapons close to the most advanced weapons of United States'. Even with these broken weapons such as broken tanks and self-turning missiles, brain-washed Taiwanese still believe that they have more advanced weapons than mainland's.
http://taiwan.huanqiu.com/article/2016-08/9382593.html?from=bdwz

 

[Place Of Space]

You just don't understand the revolution. All permanent members of security coucils had cruel revolutions with many people killed, but all of them are proud of their own revolutions. Countries who do not respect revolutions have to kneel before P5 for a living right in this planet. Revolutions killed those people who tried to block a country's development for their own selfish interests.

When Chinese civilization faced external pressures, people such as CCP decide to self-improve Chinese civilization and stand up to face the pressures, while people such as KMT decide to beg a living from Western pressure. Chinese civilization is a very proud civilization, most people decide to follow CCP. There may be tens of millions of KMT followers, but there are billions of CCP followers.

You don't understand geopolitics and global orders. It's not responsible we use morality to judge, compare KMT & CCP. They are leading China in different era.
When KMT was in the charge of China, the world was still in colonial period, from 1910's to 1940's, the Euro-Asia continent suffered world war twice. The WWI didn't impact China a lot, so KMT's China grew actually fast in 10's, 20's, China established a lot of enterprises, China completely founded the modern education system, China had a relatively modern army, KMT had a reletively balance relationship with 3 main neighbors, UK, Russia, USA, however, Japan was too aggresive and broke the balance. If Japan didn't step on the Nazi road, attacked China, KMT would have led China into a right way and became a strong nation in advance. KMT failed because it din't receive a good heritage from Qing dynasty, who reformed too slowly, lose the perfect developing period between 1820's-1870's. After 1870's, most strong nations started to expand ecomonic and military exists overseas, battled for colony.
In the first 30 years of CCP, it's cold war period, whatever to say, the global order is better and safer than world hot wars. At least there are Conferences, Treaties and Orgalizations between USSR, USA, avoiding mass scale war. CCP is in a better global circumstance than KMT had. This situation gave China some conditions to establish comprehensive heavy industry and defence industry system, build up national railway and road network, agriculturel scheme. And don't ignore most our technical talents, scientists in 50's, 60's grew up and received education in KMT period. Depending on the heavy and defence industry, we easily understand CCP can be more tough than KMT, because you already own some competences or ability. But the ability was still weak, because we couldn't control regional order, we failed to stop the Korean war and Vietnam war.
In sum, KMT was in a rude jungle world order, while CCP is in a relatively civil world order. Anyway, China nowadays can build and maitain some regional order. From KMT, CCP, China continue to develop, I won't deny KMT's some contribution because of moral judgement.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

You don't understand geopolitics and global orders. It's not responsible we use morality to judge, compare KMT & CCP. They are leading China in different era.
When KMT was in the charge of China, the world was still in colonial period, from 1910's to 1940's, the Euro-Asia continent suffered world war twice. The WWI didn't impact China a lot, so KMT's China grew actually fast in 10's, 20's, China established a lot of enterprises, China completely founded the modern education system, China had a relatively modern army, KMT had a reletively balance relationship with 3 main neighbors, UK, Russia, USA, however, Japan was too aggresive and broke the balance. If Japan didn't step on the Nazi road, attacked China, KMT would have led China into a right way and became a strong nation in advance. KMT failed because it din't receive a good heritage from Qing dynasty, who reformed too slowly, lose the perfect developing period between 1820's-1870's. After 1870's, most strong nations started to expand ecomonic and military exists overseas, battled for colony.
In the first 30 years of CCP, it's cold war period, whatever to say, the global order is better and safer than world hot wars. At least there are Conferences, Treaties and Orgalizations between USSR, USA, avoiding mass scale war. CCP is in a better global circumstance than KMT had. This situation gave China some conditions to establish comprehensive heavy industry and defence industry system, build up national railway and road network, agriculturel scheme. And don't ignore most our technical talents, scientists in 50's, 60's grew up and received education in KMT period. Depending on the heavy and defence industry, we easily understand CCP can be more tough than KMT, because you already own some competences or ability. But the ability was still weak, because we couldn't control regional order, we failed to stop the Korean war and Vietnam war.
In sum, KMT was in a rude jungle world order, while CCP is in a relatively civil world order. Anyway, China nowadays can build and maitain some regional order. From KMT, CCP, China continue to develop, I won't deny KMT's some contribution because of moral judgement.

CPC didn't live in a safer world, they once face the nuclear blackmail from two superpowers.

And today's world is not becoming more civilized. The imperialism still has the same agenda but just with stronger propaganda machine.

KMT got attacked because they were no stronger than Iraq. If today's China is still like this, then everyone will still act like jackals and try to take a piece from you.


PS, 1910s and 1920s were governed by the Beiyang government, and stop giving all the credits to the sh1tty Chiang Dynasty.

 

[Place Of Space]

CPC didn't live in a safer world, they once face the nuclear blackmail from two superpowers.

And today's world is not becoming more civilized. The imperialism still has the same agenda but just with stronger propaganda machine.

KMT got attacked because they were no stronger than Iraq. If today's China is still like this, then everyone will still act like jackals and try to take a piece from you.


PS, 1910s and 1920s were governed by the Beiyang government, and stop giving all the credits to the sh1tty Chiang Dynasty.

The situation was different though CCP was nuclear blackmailed by them. First target was USSR and USA fro and to each other. CCP still had some room. When Nazi attack KMT, China had no room at all, could just fought hot war against Japan.
Japan didn't mass scale attack China, tell me how and when KMT would lose power?
I repeat again I oppose to use morality to judge our former government. No government is perfect, in long history, we shall give fair and postive summary to our former goverment, it's beneficial for my country.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

The situation was different though CCP was nuclear blackmailed by them. First target was USSR and USA fro and to each other. CCP still had some room. When Nazi attack KMT, China had no room at all, could just fought hot war against Japan.
Japan didn't mass scale attack China, tell me how and when KMT would lose power?
I repeat again I oppose to use morality to judge our former government. No government is perfect, in long history, we shall give fair and postive summary to our former goverment, it's beneficial for my country.

Chiang's faction didn't get really weakened compared to the pre-WWII, he sent other factions to die as the cannon fodder, but it was CPC who got a lot stronger when they had more room to breathe.

What KMT had done good isn't even 1/10 compared to the damage they created.

The DPP was de facto a product of KMT's extreme anti-CPC propaganda. They brainwashed those green Taiwanese, but didn't expect these guys eventually turned into their grave digger.

 

[Place Of Space]

Chiang's faction didn't get really weakened compared to the pre-WWII, he sent other factions to die as the cannon fodder, but it was CPC who got a lot stronger when they had more room to breathe.

What KMT had done good isn't even 1/10 compared to the damage they created.

The DPP was de facto a product of KMT's extreme anti-CPC propaganda. They brainwashed those green Taiwanese, but didn't expect these guys eventually turned into their grave digger.

That's not Chiang's faction. Those faction were founded due to collapse of Qing dynasty. I have said KMT didn't receive a good heritage from Qing dynasty. Anyway, it's history. KMT and DDP nowadays has few influences in China, I would like to give some fair and positive comments to losers, do you understand? lol We shall try to persuade DDP and KMT to be better parties.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

That's not Chiang's faction. Those faction were founded due to collapse of Qing dynasty. I have said KMT didn't receive a good heritage from Qing dynasty. Anyway, it's history. KMT and DDP nowadays has few influences in China, I would like to give some fair and positive comments to losers, do you understand? lol We shall try to persuade DDP and KMT to be better parties.

Those original KMT factions were most likely usurped by Chiang and his cronies.

The original KMT was pro-Socialism, just look at Sun Yat-sen's memo, he wanted China to be free from the capitalism and build up its own state-owned economy.

If you are anti-socialism, then it is unlikely you are a true follower of Dr. Sun.

 

[Place Of Space]

Those original KMT factions were most likely usurped by Chiang and his cronies.

The original KMT was pro-Socialism, just look at Sun Yat-sen's memo, he wanted China to be free from the capitalism and build up its own state-owned economy.

If you are anti-socialism, then it is unlikely you are a true follower of Dr. Sun.

I am anti-nothing. Sun Yat-sen once travelled around the world, so he understood more about geopolitics than Chinag did. Dr. Sun in the beginning realized Russia / USSR was China's strongest neibhor, and shared land border. Inn that jungle era, if China want develop, he must build good diplomatic relations with Russia. At same time, he didn't cut off relationship with America, Chiang actually followed Sun's diplomatic policy.
By the way, Sun Yat-sen didn't have real power to control the government and country. He almost could do nothing to implement his political and economic blueprint.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

I am anti-nothing. Sun Yat-sen once travelled around the world, so he understood more about geopolitics than Chinag did. Dr. Sun in the beginning realized Russia / USSR was China's strongest neibhor, and shared land border. Inn that jungle era, if China want develop, he must build good diplomatic relations with Russia. At same time, he didn't cut off relationship with America, Chiang actually followed Sun's diplomatic policy.
By the way, Sun Yat-sen didn't have real power to control the government and country. He almost could do nothing to implement his political and economic blueprint.

Of course, even today's China doesn't want a really bad diplomatic relationship with the US.

But Sun never asked Chiang to persecute all the Marxists, he demanded Chiang to cooperate with them to make China a socialist nation with the real democracy, not the oligarchy of the capitalist nations.

Chiang didn't build a strong state-owned economy as Sun requested, but instead he had turned China into a private real estate land of few corrupt oligarch families. His wife's family also belonged to one of the four mafia families that controlled China. His wife also requested the US to nuke the communist China.

Even there was no CPC, there would be another revolution to kick those scumbags out.

 

[Abacin]

You don't understand geopolitics and global orders. It's not responsible we use morality to judge, compare KMT & CCP. They are leading China in different era.
When KMT was in the charge of China, the world was still in colonial period, from 1910's to 1940's, the Euro-Asia continent suffered world war twice. The WWI didn't impact China a lot, so KMT's China grew actually fast in 10's, 20's, China established a lot of enterprises, China completely founded the modern education system, China had a relatively modern army, KMT had a reletively balance relationship with 3 main neighbors, UK, Russia, USA, however, Japan was too aggresive and broke the balance. If Japan didn't step on the Nazi road, attacked China, KMT would have led China into a right way and became a strong nation in advance. KMT failed because it din't receive a good heritage from Qing dynasty, who reformed too slowly, lose the perfect developing period between 1820's-1870's. After 1870's, most strong nations started to expand ecomonic and military exists overseas, battled for colony.
In the first 30 years of CCP, it's cold war period, whatever to say, the global order is better and safer than world hot wars. At least there are Conferences, Treaties and Orgalizations between USSR, USA, avoiding mass scale war. CCP is in a better global circumstance than KMT had. This situation gave China some conditions to establish comprehensive heavy industry and defence industry system, build up national railway and road network, agriculturel scheme. And don't ignore most our technical talents, scientists in 50's, 60's grew up and received education in KMT period. Depending on the heavy and defence industry, we easily understand CCP can be more tough than KMT, because you already own some competences or ability. But the ability was still weak, because we couldn't control regional order, we failed to stop the Korean war and Vietnam war.
In sum, KMT was in a rude jungle world order, while CCP is in a relatively civil world order. Anyway, China nowadays can build and maitain some regional order. From KMT, CCP, China continue to develop, I won't deny KMT's some contribution because of moral judgement.

First, in 10's and 20's, China was controlled by Beiyang Government with much less foreign controls. At that time, China was trying to regain the control of territories such as External Mongolia. KMT sold many China interests to consolidate its control of China. It was willing to sacrifice any non-Han areas of China. Only when Japan started to attack Han areas, KMT felt its ruling threatened and fought back.

Second, today's world is not any more civil than 100 years ago. When Union of Eight Countries invaded Beijing (the capital of Chinese civilization) in 1900, the west called it a win of civilization over barbarians. In 2003, when US invaded Baghdad, the long time capital of Arabic civilization, it was called a win of democracy over dictatorship. Exactly the same thing are happening again and again. You feel that it is more civilized now because the stronger China protects East Asia from wars as those happening in Mid East, Africa and East Europe. Before China and United States settled down peace in 1971, War was everywhere in East Asia.