What's new

Make In India - Fighter Jet musings - News, Developments, Updates - F16,F18, Gripen, Any other

@PARIKRAMA

What engine will LSA use initially till safranised kaveri gets ready..

M88?
Have dassault agreed to it.?
Even if they agree, how many years before LSA gets engine?
 
it has agreed to help India with the Light Combat Aircraft MK 2 and AMCA.

French company Snecma (Safran)( a Dassault partner along with Thales) has proposed to invest Euro one billion in the Kaveri Gas Turbine Engine to be fitted in the LCA MK1A. .
https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-402#post-8793857

You will see LWF also having a similar need of sporting Safranised Kaveri.

This will essentially create more roadblocks and expect a deeper level of cooperation from the Saab and LM folks.. Either they give us a better deal in terms of technology to our MIC and price or else its a smart way of stone walling them... We know F16 can be used with Safranised Kaveri.. It needs to be seen if Gripen E can be re engined with this or not and what time it will take.

More or less, its all hinting towards either LSA Ghost or it will be a LCA Mk2 with heavy borrowing from Dassault expertise...

@MilSpec Your thread 3rd option - Case III in LWF thread
 
https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-402#post-8793857

You will see LWF also having a similar need of sporting Safranised Kaveri.

This will essentially create more roadblocks and expect a deeper level of cooperation from the Saab and LM folks.. Either they give us a better deal in terms of technology to our MIC and price or else its a smart way of stone walling them... We know F16 can be used with Safranised Kaveri.. It needs to be seen if Gripen E can be re engined with this or not and what time it will take.

More or less, its all hinting towards either LSA Ghost or it will be a LCA Mk2 with heavy borrowing from Dassault expertise...

@MilSpec Your thread 3rd option - Case III in LWF thread
for 10 years MMRCA, Languished, the economy has changed substantially. Upper end of our calculations will be a reality soon. I did not want to divulge too much, but just be patient and watch. @hellfire
 
https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-402#post-8793857

You will see LWF also having a similar need of sporting Safranised Kaveri.

This will essentially create more roadblocks and expect a deeper level of cooperation from the Saab and LM folks.. Either they give us a better deal in terms of technology to our MIC and price or else its a smart way of stone walling them... We know F16 can be used with Safranised Kaveri.. It needs to be seen if Gripen E can be re engined with this or not and what time it will take.

More or less, its all hinting towards either LSA Ghost or it will be a LCA Mk2 with heavy borrowing from Dassault expertise...

@MilSpec Your thread 3rd option - Case III in LWF thread

It is the other way around:
Can India design the next generation Kaveri so it is plug-in compatible with the F414 used by Gripen?
If LCAs plans to use the F414 initially, that would make a lot of sense.
 
Buying India's new light fighter. Not another MMRCA fiasco, please




By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 11th Oct 16


After the sorry compromise that was the Rafale fighter acquisition, the Indian Air Force (IAF) last week went back to the start line, initiating the purchase of a light fighter to replace the MiG-21s, MiG-23s and MiG-27s that once formed the bulk of its fleet, and still constitute one-third of it. Since Indian defence planners (assuming the breed actually exists) seldom learn from others’ mistakes, they must at least learn from their failed project to acquire 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA). Ironically, that too had started out 15 years ago as a programme to buy lots of light-to-medium fighters to replace the MiGs. The effort --- which would-be vendors obsequiously lauded as “the world’s most professionally run fighter acquisition programme” --- crashed in flames last year, with the decision to buy 36 Rafales. Inexplicably, the IAF has ended up with a small number of exorbitantly expensive fighters that would be criminally wasted on the combat roles the MiG fleet has played.

Even so, fleet shortages in the IAF are so dire --- 33-34 operational fighter squadrons, against the 45 needed to handle a collusive threat from China and Pakistan --- that we must welcome the Rafale buy, even though it has cost Euro 7.87 billion. True, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) Nashik delivers 12-13 Sukhoi-30MKIs each year; and its Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) production line in Bengaluru is slowly ramping up production. Yet, with the remaining 11 MiG-21 and MiG-27 squadrons retiring soon, the shortfall will remain. And since the Rafales will only start being delivered after three years, there is no room for delay or misjudgement.

It would be remembered that the air force began the MMRCA process on the right note, before the defence ministry put it into a downward dive from which it never recovered. In 2000-01, the IAF --- pleased with the Mirage 2000 after its accurate bombing of Pakistani mountain-top positions during the 1999 Kargil conflict --- proposed buying the Mirage 2000 production line from Dassault, which was closing it down to build the new Rafale. The plan was to transfer the line to HAL, which would build the well-regarded Mirage 2000-9, an export version of the French Air Force’s Mirage 2000-5 Mark 2. That was clearly the sensible thing to do. The IAF was familiar with the Mirage 2000; and had the training, maintenance and repair infrastructure, and had already developed Indian vendors for several sub-systems. Had the Mirage 2000 been chosen, the IAF would have had a highly capable, light, cheap fighter without complicating fleet logistics.

But that was not to be. Defence Minister George Fernandes, rattled by the Tehelka sting, decided (backed by the National Democratic Alliance cabinet) that single-vendor procurement from Dassault might invite further charges of corruption. So Fernandes played it safe by sending out a global tender to multiple vendors. The IAF, its pragmatism replaced by the starry-eyed prospect of flying the world’s best (and most expensive!) fighters, framed expansive requirements that brought six fighters into contention. The rest is depressing history.

The lessons from the MMRCA are clear. First, forswear bureaucratic and political caution in the national interest and quietly identify the best choice for India based on a matrix of performance, life-cycle cost, technology transfer and the strategic relationship with the vendor country --- rather than trying to identify, like in the past, the cheapest fighter that meets the IAF’s performance requirements. Politically motivated charges of corruption are inevitable, regardless of the integrity of the process; but larger political rewards lie in pushing through, in full public view, a badly needed acquisition that fills a gaping capability void. Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, who has the confidence of a personally honest man, has already signalled that he can think boldly. Speaking on Doordarshan on April 13, 2015, soon after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced in Paris that India would buy 36 Rafales, Mr Parrikar stated: “It is wrong to do an MMRCA type deal using an RfP (competitive tender) model. You cannot compare different types of aircraft like the F/A-18, Eurofighter and Rafale. All three have different strengths and capabilities. All three are probably good enough planes… These important decisions need to be taken at government-to-government levels.”

Sadly, Mr Parrikar has disregarded his own advice while launching the light fighter acquisition. Like with the MMRCA, the letter of inquiry has been sent to numerous aerospace manufacturers, even those who do not have a single-engine, medium fighter to offer. When asked why, officials explained off-the-record that it was so that no vendor could later complain it was left out. This play-it-safe attitude is hardly suggestive of a purposive, focused, unapologetic procurement process to come.

In fact, only two firms need be approached: American behemoth, Lockheed Martin, and Swedish defence firm, Saab; both of whom have quality single-engine fighters to “Make in India”. The former has already pitched with the defence ministry to build a new Block 70 variant of its F-16 Super Viper. Saab, too, has offered to build the new Gripen E, which is scheduled to make its first flight this year.

While not much separates the two offers, Lockheed Martin clearly scores on one count, while Saab wins on other counts. Building the F-16 in India would strengthen the burgeoning US-India defence partnership, which is already creating skilled jobs in India. Choosing the Gripen, on the other hand, would bring in Swedish technologies in areas like the “airborne electronically scanned array” radar, which US export control regulations safeguard jealously. The Swedish dependency on any Indian partnership would allow New Delhi far greater leverage in bargaining for high technology than India could ever wield in Washington. Further, the Gripen E can be modified into an aircraft carrier borne fighter --- an option the F-16 does not have.

The final determinant must be: which relationship would impart greater impetus to indigenous fighter programmes like the Tejas and the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft; and co-development programmes like the Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft. In making his choice, Mr Parrikar should bear in mind that a quick, decisive verdict would save three years of ministry file-pushing and fill in operational gaps that are unacceptable, given the tensions in South Asia.
 


In fact, only two firms need be approached: American behemoth, Lockheed Martin, and Swedish defence firm, Saab; both of whom have quality single-engine fighters to “Make in India”. The former has already pitched with the defence ministry to build a new Block 70 variant of its F-16 Super Viper. Saab, too, has offered to build the new Gripen E, which is scheduled to make its first flight this year.
Shukla ji strikes again.:omghaha:
 
India Kicks Off New Search for MiG-21 Replacement
The Indian Ministry of Defense has issued a Request for Information (RFI) to global aircraft manufacturers.

thediplomat_2015-01-06_12-04-00-36x36.jpg

By Franz-Stefan Gady
October 12, 2016


The Indian Ministry of Defense (MOD) has recently issued a Request for Information (RFI) to global aircraft manufacturers alerting international suppliers that there will be a new competition for the building of a new single-engine fighter aircraft under Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s “Make in India” initiative.

The RFI will be followed by a detailed Request for Proposal (RFP) inviting aircraft makers to submit proposals including detailed technology transfer plans, historically one of the most difficult aspects of any defense deal in India.

The Indian Air Force is in need of approximately 300 new light combat aircraft.

According to Indian Air Force (IAF) chief Arup Raha, India has already received “unsolicited offers” from Lockheed Martin, Boeing, and Saab to build the Lockheed Martin F-16 Block 70, Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet, and Saab Gripen E fighter jet in India.

This is very much on the table and I’m sure whoever gives the best deal [will win]. All the aircraft are very capable, so it will depend upon who provides the best transfer of technology; and, of course, the price tag. It’s on the table; nothing is decided as yet,” Raha told the Business Standard.

This will not be just licensed manufacture. It will be proper transfer of technology. Also, India will become a hub for manufacturing, as well as maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) for other air forces in the region,” he added.

As I explained previously:

U.S. defense contractors Boeing and Lockheed Martin[next to other aircraft makers], along with their F-16 and F-18 aircraft, were outbid in 2011 under the now-scrapped $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project by French aircraft maker Dassault Aviation, with India opting for Dassault Aviation’s Rafale fighter instead in January 2012. However, the MMRCA project was cancelled after years of difficult negotiations in July 2015.

Instead, India and French aircraft manufacturer Dassault Aviation signed an agreement valued at 7.87 billion euros for the sale of 36 off-the-shelf Dassault Rafale twin-engine aircraft in September.

Saab has been involved in talks with Indian state-run aircraft maker Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to collaborate on the upgraded version of the indigenously developed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), dubbed the Tejas Mark-IA.

We should be able to start production of this aircraft by 2020-21; and in another five-seven years [i.e. by 2025-28], we’ll have 80 Tejas Mark 1A fighters,” according to Raha.

The IAF plans to induct a total of 20 Tejas Mark-I aircraft by early 2018, but the program has been hampered by repeated delays and the MoD’s recent RFI makes it clear that the IAF will not solely rely on the Tejas LCA to replace its aging fleet of MIG-21 fighter jets.

The first Tejas squadron will consist of the aircraft’s less advanced Mark-I variant with “initial operational certification (IOC),” according to Raha. “So in another year and a half’s time, we will have a full squadron of LCA’s – the IOC version,” he said.

Raha also said that the “final operational certification” (FOC) of the Tejas was looming. “I’m sure in another five-six months FOC would be cleared and production will start as soon as [HAL] finishes producing the IOC version. So we expect that the FOC version [of the Tejas] will be operationalized in an IAF fighter squadron in another three years time.”
 
Last edited:
Can anyone actually produce a RFI link here , so that we can see what has actually been conveyed. Because I haven't found it yet, and so I am taking this RFI news as false.
 
This will not be just licensed manufacture. It will be proper transfer of technology. Also, India will become a hub for manufacturing, as well as maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) for other air forces in the region

He is clearly talking about f 16. Although IAF wants gripen ,f 16 is ahead in the race due to geo political resons + lower price.This deal is mostly about MII and to develop inhouse aerospace industry (private) +engine + need to replace migs as quickly as possible(since it will take 10 to 12 years for hal to produce 120 fighters).
 
He is clearly talking about f 16. Although IAF wants gripen ,f 16 is ahead in the race due to geo political resons + lower price.This deal is mostly about MII and to develop inhouse aerospace industry (private) +engine + need to replace migs as quickly as possible(since it will take 10 to 12 years for hal to produce 120 fighters).

120 F16s by 2033 , if I am optimistic.

The time when last of the f16 operators will be rushing to replace a " Flying Coffin " of 2030.
 
120 F16s by 2033 , if I am optimistic.

The time when last of the f16 operators will be rushing to replace a " Flying Coffin " of 2030.
It took 40 years for LM to produce 4500 f 16 , that's about 100+ per year. They are claiming to move entire production line for us. So no way its gonna take 17 years to produce 120 planes for biggest defence giant in the world. if every thing go well and production start in 2020 we can hope for 2026- 2030.
 

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom