Make In India - Fighter Jet musings - News, Developments, Updates - F16,F18, Gripen, Any other

[Allen Iverson]

Grippen is definitely a great aircraft.No doubts about it. It is definitely more capable than Tejas and has better upgrade potential than F-16.

But do we really need a super duper plane as point defense? Maybe not. We just need a cheap replacement for Mig21. An AESA radar, multi-role and BVR capability, air-refuelling and decent range is all we need to replace Migs and there is no cheaper alternate than Tejas for it.

But if I were to speak for a country that needs a cost effective alternative as their Back bone then there is no other aircraft that fits in perfectly than the Grippen. Unfortunately or fortunately, for a country operating Su30 and Rafale, there is no desperation for Grippen to take up 3rd layer of Defence.

Personally, if GOI pulls a miracle and fix production output, we don't need any other single engine aircraft for the next decade apart from MK1-A. That makes the most sense both financially, operationally and sometimes even politically.

Good Day!

Agreed that we don't need another super duper plane.. But the Super duper AMCA project is nowhere and it is till in the drawing boards.. My Proposal was to Join hands with SAAB for a hybrid LCA/Gripen stealth version for AMCA.. ? We are no where near to build a stealthy fifth generation fighterand let us not fcuk up the AMCA like we did with LCA without any clear vision.. I know it is wishful but imagine if this ever happens..??

 

[R!CK]

Agreed that we don't need another super duper plane.. But the Super duper AMCA project is nowhere and it is till in the drawing boards.. My Proposal was to Join hands with SAAB for a hybrid LCA/Gripen stealth version for AMCA.. ? We are no where near to build a stealthy fifth generation fighterand let us not fcuk up the AMCA like we did with LCA without any clear vision.. I know it is wishful but imagine if this ever happens..??

Agreed. But answer to your wish is in the Rafale and FGFA deal.

P.S: I'd want my country to have all the best aircraft in the world but our inventory is already messed up with 7 types and 8th joining us soon in nearly 3 years time. We are assured to operate 7 types atleast until mid 2020s without even considering a second single engine type acquisition.

Good Day to you!

 

[Allen Iverson]

Agreed. But answer to your wish is in the Rafale and FGFA deal.

P.S: I'd want my country to have all the best aircraft in the world but our inventory is already messed up with 7 types and 8th joining us soon in nearly 3 years time. We are assured to operate 7 types atleast until mid 2020s without even considering a second single engine type acquisition.

Good Day to you!

ohh cmon, pls don't say that we are partners in FGFA deal.. Our partnership is limited to money and Mission computers and few other electronic goodies that can be integrated to our version of FGFA.. I'm talking about real time design, development, testing and manufacturing of fifth Generation fighters.. The one in the Name of AMCA which was supposed to be Indian completely from the beginning.. Are we anywhere closer to even finalising the concept definition of our AMCA let alone designing..??? Nooooooooo..
Hence let us stop dreaming and start realising the situation and move on with real partners.. Not with those who are just using us for the money we can put in..

 

[R!CK]

FGFA deal will give us access to some technology, small or big. As far as design help is concerned, that's where the French come in.

I'll only tell you that good days are ahead. Currently AMCA is not upto speed mainly because the decided timelines takes into consideration the time required for help to flow from Rafale and FGFA deals. And yes I'm with you when you say AMCA should be fast tracked. At the cost of one more type introduced into the already zoo fleet? I don't know, maybe time will tell us.

Good Day!

 

[Agent_47]

Let us be honest and Practical boss.. did we just build a plane from scratch..? We had our shortfalls and gaps which were filled in time by GE ,ELTA & RAFAEL.. But we did get extremely valuable and costly knowledge of How to build a fighter from scratch, which no one in this world will offer

Making from scratch means designing and developing a plane from a concept. Educate me how Saab is different? US engine,Italian radar, consultation from Lockheed Martin.

And regarding the cost of manufacturing, unless the LCA production line is privatised, it will continue to remain a costly business.. Costlier than Gripen NG.. (I'm comparing just Airframes not weapons).. but the day when atleast 80 % of the parts manufactured by HAL are privatised, than we can see a real good toy in hand..

Cost of manufacturing more than Gripen ? Are you high dude?
70-80% of the work will be given to SMBs, HAL or any other private entry (second line) will only do final integration and testing. Every foreign parts will be manufactured in india under licence.

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

Agreed that we don't need another super duper plane.. But the Super duper AMCA project is nowhere and it is till in the drawing boards.. My Proposal was to Join hands with SAAB for a hybrid LCA/Gripen stealth version for AMCA.. ? We are no where near to build a stealthy fifth generation fighterand let us not fcuk up the AMCA like we did with LCA without any clear vision.. I know it is wishful but imagine if this ever happens..??

Co Development of AMCA ?

What does SAAB brings in which we don't?
List 3 things , which we will not get access to without them.

 

[Allen Iverson]

Making from scratch means designing and developing a plane from a concept. Educate me how Saab is different? US engine,Italian radar, consultation from Lockheed Martin.

Propulsion System
SAAB Gripen is absolutely designed and developed from Scratch for their needs as did its predecessors SAAB Viggen and SAAB Draken Aircrafts.. Volvo initially started to provide powerplants to SAAB based on Pratt & Whittney RM8 Variants in the early 70s.. They flew the early versions of Gripen with RM12 which is built by Volvo.. Even in the latest models of Gripen or the earlier models of Viggen and Draken Volvo has made enough changes with the powerplants of OEMS as per their requirements to make it as good as a new powerplant.. So regarding Engines, SAAB has far more experience and expertise than HAL and their reason for going with the American derived power plant is of two folds
1. Volvo got Best deals on price and critical changes to the existing design as per the requirement of Sweden which was allowed by OEMs like P&W as well as GE and Volvo did all the finetuning's and changes.. They didn't have to invest a huge sum to set up a huge base to manufacture Turbo jet engines from the scratch for such a small country like Sweden..
2. NATO standards of Interoperability as per the mandatory requirement..
So even for argument's sake we cannot compare Indian LCA program and SAAB Gripen Program in terms of Propulsion systems..
Radars
We all know that SAAB is one of the pioneers in designing and developing multitude of Ground based, Fighter based and Naval Radars..
SAAB Erieye 2000 AEW&C which was acquired by Pakistan has forced us to go for the Phalcons with Israel.. During the initial days they were nightmarish for our defence forces until we acquire Phalcons from Israel..
SAAB Gripen was first equipped with PS-05/A developed by SAAB Ericsson..
Here also SAAB stands out in terms of radars.. The VIXEN AESA from Selex is again a part of NATO interoperability standards and a stop gap before SAAB could breakthrough their own AESA with GAN modules which is even better than the VIXEN..

We can be optimistic about our capabilities but we should not be Dickheaded and go chest thumping about every small achievements we accomplished.. It will only undermine our will to develop better systems.. I leave the rest to u..
To compare and SAAB and HAL or DRDO is totally rubbish.. SAAB had the technology and the resources required for manufacturing a complete 4+ generation Aricraft

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Why do IAF buy a costly European assembled plane for a regular role which can be done by our LCA ?
Your concerns duly noted, if we can build a fourth gen plane from scratch I'm sure we can increase production rate with respect to our needs.

The production plans for Tejas will result in a dip in the Air Force.
If Tejas could be produced in higher numbers, then the dip would not occur.

For HAL, they must judge if the investment to increase the production rate is financially sound.
This is not neccessary the case if it means that the production in existing fabs will run dry sooner.

If IAF needs 120 Tejas, and a production line can produce 10 a year,
It will take 12 years to produce the order with one line.
2 lines: 6 years
3 lines: 4 years
4 lines: 3 years
cost of production lines needs to be amortized over the number of aircraft
produced at that line.

1 production line: amortized over 120 aircraft.
4 production lines: amortized over 30 aircraft.

So planes will be more expensive.

Co Development of AMCA ?

What does SAAB brings in which we don't?
List 3 things , which we will not get access to without them.

World Class project management.
World Class datalink
World Class Radar

Making from scratch means designing and developing a plane from a concept. Educate me how Saab is different? US engine,Italian radar, consultation from Lockheed Martin.



Cost of manufacturing more than Gripen ? Are you high dude?
70-80% of the work will be given to SMBs, HAL or any other private entry (second line) will only do final integration and testing. Every foreign parts will be manufactured in india under licence.

SAAB has been designing fighters for 75 years.
Name one radar, engine or ejection seat designed by

• Dassault?
• Lockheed Martin?
• Eurofighter Gmbh?
• Boeing?

Dassault selects tech from french companies.
US companies select US tech.
Eurofighter selects European tech.
SAAB selects worldwide.

Really no difference...

 

[Allen Iverson]

Cost of manufacturing more than Gripen ? Are you high dude?
70-80% of the work will be given to SMBs, HAL or any other private entry (second line) will only do final integration and testing. Every foreign parts will be manufactured in india under licence.

Here again, Grippen uses an AESA which is far more capable.. If u compare the cost of ELTA EM 2032 than it will be higher because it is Pulse Doppler radar which is far less capable.. Likewise the powerplant which is far less capable than the Gripen uses.. So over all there is no comparison between Grippen of today and LCA of today because they both are a full generation apart.. And cost wise yes Grippen is atleast some 15 Million USD costlier than LCA as on date.. I'm not talking about the privatisation of LCA mfg which is the future, which may or may not happen.. If I compare the cost per piece of the airframes with engine and radar, than Grippen.. it is costlier than

But what I really admire about Grippen is that the philosophies around which the Grippen is built such as
1.Modular construction
2.Ease of maintenance
3.Very little time to service engine
4.Extremely fast sortie rates
5.Take of and landing in short strips
6. Hot refuelling etc..
I'm pretty sure Indian defence organisations has a lot to learn from those philosophies.. As a witness to our Air operations and with a handful of experience how the Fulcrums and Mirages behaved in terms of serviceability and airworthiness so far, I will take a Grippen anyday over a Rafale let alone LCA..

 

[Agent_47]

Propulsion System
SAAB Gripen is absolutely designed and developed from Scratch for their needs as did its predecessors SAAB Viggen and SAAB Draken Aircrafts.. Volvo initially started to provide powerplants to SAAB based on Pratt & Whittney RM8 Variants in the early 70s.. They flew the early versions of Gripen with RM12 which is built by Volvo.. Even in the latest models of Gripen or the earlier models of Viggen and Draken Volvo has made enough changes with the powerplants of OEMS as per their requirements to make it as good as a new powerplant.. So regarding Engines, SAAB has far more experience and expertise than HAL and their reason for going with the American derived power plant is of two folds
1. Volvo got Best deals on price and critical changes to the existing design as per the requirement of Sweden which was allowed by OEMs like P&W as well as GE and Volvo did all the finetuning's and changes.. They didn't have to invest a huge sum to set up a huge base to manufacture Turbo jet engines from the scratch for such a small country like Sweden..
2. NATO standards of Interoperability as per the mandatory requirement..
So even for argument's sake we cannot compare Indian LCA program and SAAB Gripen Program in terms of Propulsion systems..

Dude, don't make fun of yourself. Even Swedish here won't claim GE404/GE414 as theirs. Copy pasting company history won't make it a swedish engine. I can list atleast 10 modern engines made in HAL with licence from the east and west. But, That won't change fact that all designs are foreign.

Radars
We all know that SAAB is one of the pioneers in designing and developing multitude of Ground based, Fighter based and Naval Radars..
SAAB Erieye 2000 AEW&C which was acquired by Pakistan has forced us to go for the Phalcons with Israel.. During the initial days they were nightmarish for our defence forces until we acquire Phalcons from Israel..
SAAB Gripen was first equipped with PS-05/A developed by SAAB Ericsson..
Here also SAAB stands out in terms of radars.. The VIXEN AESA from Selex is again a part of NATO interoperability standards and a stop gap before SAAB could breakthrough their own AESA with GAN modules which is even better than the VIXEN..

Again, Selex is a Leonardo-Finmeccanica subsidiary not Swedish, period. DRDO has tested AESA. does that means its deployed ? No. Saab Erieye is comparable to DRDO AEW&C not Phalcon.

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

Propun System
SAAB Gripen is absolutely designed and developed from Scratch for their needs as did its predecessors SAAB Viggen and SAAB Draken Aircrafts.. Volvo initially started to provide powerplants to SAAB based on Pratt & Whittney RM8 Variants in the early 70s.. They flew the early versions of Gripen with RM12 which is built by Volvo.. Even in the latest models of Gripen or the earlier models of Viggen and Draken Volvo has made enough changes with the powerplants of OEMS as per their requirements to make it as good as a new powerplant.. So regarding Engines, SAAB has far more experience and expertise than HAL and their reason for going with the American derived power plant is of two folds
1. Volvo got Best deals on price and critical changes to the existing design as per the requirement of Sweden which was allowed by OEMs like P&W as well as GE and Volvo did all the finetuning's and changes.. They didn't have to invest a huge sum to set up a huge base to manufacture Turbo jet engines from the scratch for such a small country like Sweden..
2. NATO standards of Interoperability as per the mandatory requirement..
So even for argument's sake we cannot compare Indian LCA program and SAAB Gripen Program in terms of Propulsion systems..
Radars
We all know that SAAB is one of the pioneers in designing and developing multitude of Ground based, Fighter based and Naval Radars..
SAAB Erieye 2000 AEW&C which was acquired by Pakistan has forced us to go for the Phalcons with Israel.. During the initial days they were nightmarish for our defence forces until we acquire Phalcons from Israel..
SAAB Gripen was first equipped with PS-05/A developed by SAAB Ericsson..
Here also SAAB stands out in terms of radars.. The VIXEN AESA from Selex is again a part of NATO interoperability standards and a stop gap before SAAB could breakthrough their own AESA with GAN modules which is even better than the VIXEN..

We can be optimistic about our capabilities but we should not be Dickheaded and go chest thumping about every small achievements we accomplished.. It will only undermine our will to develop better systems.. I leave the rest to u..
To compare and SAAB and HAL or DRDO is totally rubbish.. SAAB had the technology and the resources required for manufacturing a complete 4+ generation Aricraft

Ok

Provide me 2 guarantees

1. Guarantee that India will hold rights over the engine , also to export it, develop it , improve it , without being dependent on a " Third Party ".

2. Guarantee of full rights over AESA , with out depending on " Third Party ".

It would still be better if we directly opt for a third party.... it would be cheaper for us , and time savings.

World Class project management.
World Class datalink
World Class Radar

Project management ?
We as of now have working dealsv with equally capable companies , and if needed we will get consultancy with out needing to buy another type.

Data Link ?
Well advantage here maybe.

Radar ?

Give me guarantee of Indian Rights over it without a third party dependency. Selex is Italy with whom we don't have best of the relations.

 

[Agent_47]

The production plans for Tejas will result in a dip in the Air Force.
If Tejas could be produced in higher numbers, then the dip would not occur.

For HAL, they must judge if the investment to increase the production rate is financially sound.
This is not neccessary the case if it means that the production in existing fabs will run dry sooner.

If IAF needs 120 Tejas, and a production line can produce 10 a year,
It will take 12 years to produce the order with one line.
2 lines: 6 years
3 lines: 4 years
4 lines: 3 years
cost of production lines needs to be amortized over the number of aircraft
produced at that line.

1 production line: amortized over 120 aircraft.
4 production lines: amortized over 30 aircraft.

So planes will be more expensive.

If we are ordering next batch of 200 LCA mk2s for say $9 billion ($45 m x 200). What will be the cost of setting up a new production line ? Rs 2000 cr ? (Last time it was around Rs 1500 cr). That means each LCA will cost additional $1.5 million (Rs 2000/200 = 10cr). Do you call that extensive ? considering $85 million flyaway cost of Gripen E.

SAAB has been designing fighters for 75 years.
Name one radar, engine or ejection seat designed by

• Dassault?
• Lockheed Martin?
• Eurofighter Gmbh?
• Boeing?

Dassault selects tech from french companies.
US companies select US tech.
Eurofighter selects European tech.
SAAB selects worldwide.

Really no difference...

Which is exactly what i was saying to the other poster. (Even-though country based)

World Class project management.
World Class datalink
World Class Radar

Project management -> Give us enough budget,specific requirements etc. Wait and watch for AMCA.
World Class datalink -> Are you sure we can't make one in next 4-5 years?
World Class Radar -> Already committed with Elta for development + UTTAM

You want us to commit $10+ billion for this kind of stuff?
You guys should have started military interactions with us much earlier. Look at Israels, we go step by step. Some paid articles won't help you to make a foot hole here.

Here again, Grippen uses an AESA which is far more capable.. If u compare the cost of ELTA EM 2032 than it will be higher because it is Pulse Doppler radar which is far less capable.. Likewise the powerplant which is far less capable than the Gripen uses.. So over all there is no comparison between Grippen of today and LCA of today because they both are a full generation apart.. And cost wise yes Grippen is atleast some 15 Million USD costlier than LCA as on date.. I'm not talking about the privatisation of LCA mfg which is the future, which may or may not happen.. If I compare the cost per piece of the airframes with engine and radar, than Grippen.. it is costlier than

You should update your knowledge, LCA mk1A is equipped with Elta el/m 2052. Gripen E costs around $70-85 million.

I'm pretty sure Indian defence organisations has a lot to learn from those philosophies.. As a witness to our Air operations and with a handful of experience how the Fulcrums and Mirages behaved in terms of serviceability and airworthiness so far, I will take a Grippen anyday over a Rafale let alone LCA..

No one care about your fetishes, make arguments how this plane is suitable for the requirements and price.

 

[Allen Iverson]

Dude, don't make fun of yourself. Even Swedish here won't claim GE404/GE414 as theirs. Copy pasting company history won't change the fact that it runs on GE engine. I can list atleast 10 modern engines made in HAL with licence from the east and west. But, That won't change fact that all designs are foreign.

If your intention is to prove that you are well versed in the topic than me, then you don't need to type anything here.. I concede that you are an expert in this subject matter than me..
Now responding to your post, I do not see anything funny in my previous posts, as I've mentioned what I feel is right..
Can u provide me the company history from where I have copy pasted the above post.. Pls feel free to prove this otherwise you'll looked upon with puny.. (The Company source link or a screen shot of the company page will suffice)..

Where did I claim that GE engines are a property of SAAB..?? I merely said SAAB Grippen is powered by VOLVO RM12 which is a modified GE 404 engine.. But the modifications are trivial in itself and those modifications such as FADEC require very high technological knowhows to carry out and VOLVO is capable of that.. FADEC is designed by SAAB for Grippen fighters in 1996.. Not just that more than 50% components are made in Sweden and designed according to the needs of Swedish Airforce by Sweden in Sweden, I can provide you links if u want.. I'm implying that, SAAB is fully capable of developing an Engine totally in Sweden but they didn't required since they were getting all they wanted with all the freedom to modify the engine as per their requirement..

In short SAAB had the Technology but they didn't had the will to create a new engine from scratch because it is costly and time consuming.. Where as the case of HAL is exactly the opposite.. We have the resources but we don't have the Tech.. As simple as that.. Hence partnering with SAAB will provide the best opportunity for HAL as well as India for its future ambitions..
After reading all this if you still compare HAL with SAAB and VOLVO than I have nothing to say on this topic..

Again, Selex is a Leonardo-Finmeccanica subsidiary not Swedish, period. DRDO has tested AESA. does that means its deployed ? No. Saab Erieye is comparable to DRDO AEW&C not Phalcon.

Again you are Misquoting my post.. when did I say that SELEX is a Swedish company or a SAAB owned company.. You have problem in comprehending my posts..
I said they have enough experience in creating radars and they have already flew their earlier model gripen with PS-05/A Pulse Doppler radar which is manufactured by SAAB.. Now they are going with SELEX made AESA Radar to stay competitive in the business market, where as their their own GAN modules based more efficient AESA is already designed and ready to be produced..
I did not say SAAB Eriye is equivalent to Phalcons.. I said SAAB is far experienced in building radars and their Erieye was deployed in Pakistan in more numbers than our phalcons and far earlier than we could deploy our phalcons.. Hence the Erieye gave an edge to them while our phalcons were still getting inducted in those days back in 2007-08..
Pls do not jump to conclusions before reading my posts completely and properly.. It is you who is trying to humiliate yourself..
Good day...

Ok

Provide me 2 guarantees

1. Guarantee that India will hold rights over the engine , also to export it, develop it , improve it , without being dependent on a " Third Party ".

2. Guarantee of full rights over AESA , with out depending on " Third Party ".

It would still be better if we directly opt for a third party.... it would be cheaper for us , and time savings.

I'm not here pitching for SAAB in Indian Airforce lines, but merely suggesting my point of views.. However, the way SAAB is offering their products for make in India program, it does seems very promising..

You should update your knowledge, LCA mk1A is equipped with Elta el/m 2052. Gripen E costs around $70-85 million.

Correction to your post.. LCA MK1A is proposed to have ELTA EL/M 2052 (Future Tense).. neither LCA MK1A nor its radar had seen day light and it wont see day light before 2020.. Atleast that's what the HAL folks are telling me... So let us debate on that when it is ready.. you are saying that LCA MK1 is equipped(Present Tense) with ELTA ELM2052.. Pls update your knowledge on tenses and then we'll talk about Aircrafts and its systems..
Good day

No one care about your fetishes, make arguments how this plane is suitable for the requirements and price.

As I already told, I'm here providing my views.. "Fetish" is a rather rogue way of portraying one's views.. I feel that Gripen should be a partner of DRDO in developing AMCA.. That's it.. It has got experience and expertise and along with our experience and resources we can have a grand success with our AMCA like we had with Brahmos..
That's it... I'm not pitching for procuring existing Gripens, since it will somehow undermine the need for our Tejas.. However SAAB is one such organisation which can share a lot with India and which is also known for developing high quality defence systems..

 

[Agent_47]

Where did I claim that GE engines are a property of SAAB..?? I merely said SAAB Grippen is powered by VOLVO RM12 which is a modified GE 404 engine.. But the modifications are trivial in itself and those modifications such as FADEC require very high technological knowhows to carry out and VOLVO is capable of that.. FADEC is designed by SAAB for Grippen fighters in 1996.. Not just that more than 50% components are made in Sweden and designed according to the needs of Swedish Airforce by Sweden in Sweden, I can provide you links if u want.. I'm implying that, SAAB is fully capable of developing an Engine totally in Sweden but they didn't required since they were getting all they wanted with all the freedom to modify the engine as per their requirement..

You answered to my post asking 'How Saab is different from HAL/ADA?' saying swedish (VOLVO) have more experience with engine than us. Now you are claiming adding FADEC to GE404 is some exceptional achievement.
Hope you know we have developed an engine named Kavari with indigenous FADEC thanks to DARE. We licencee produce hundreds of Adour Mk 871,Mk 811,AL 31FP,RD 33, R29,R25 etc.We make more than 50% inhouse for AL 31/RD33. We may have produced more modern engines in last 10 years than Swedish ever made in last 50 years. And how did without making a modern engine they become more experienced?

In short SAAB had the Technology but they didn't had the will to create a new engine from scratch because it is costly and time consuming.. Where as the case of HAL is exactly the opposite.. We have the resources but we don't have the Tech.. As simple as that.. Hence partnering with SAAB will provide the best opportunity for HAL as well as India for its future ambitions..
After reading all this if you still compare HAL with SAAB and VOLVO than I have nothing to say on this topic..

You do understand our startagic engines are developed by GTRE not HAL rite ?

Again you are Misquoting my post.. when did I say that SELEX is a Swedish company or a SAAB owned company.. You have problem in comprehending my posts..
I said they have enough experience in creating radars and they have already flew their earlier model gripen with PS-05/A Pulse Doppler radar which is manufactured by SAAB.. Now they are going with SELEX made AESA Radar to stay competitive in the business market, where as their their own GAN modules based more efficient AESA is already designed and ready to be produced..

How am i Misquoting ? (again, you were answering to 'How Saab is different from HAL?' post) it okey for Saab to use other countries Radars but we cannot!? . This thread is about MII LWF not history of light weight fighters. AESA is must for every future acquisition. As i said earlier DRDO and elta is developing a new AESA radar, just like your future GaN.

Correction to your post.. LCA MK1A is proposed to have ELTA EL/M 2052 (Future Tense).. neither LCA MK1A nor its radar had seen day light and it wont see day light before 2020.. Atleast that's what the HAL folks are telling me... So let us debate on that when it is ready.. you are saying that LCA MK1 is equipped(Present Tense) with ELTA ELM2052.. Pls update your knowledge on tenses and then we'll talk about Aircrafts and its systems..
Good day

Bhayya, This is about future MII LWF. btw LCA mk2A is already ordered, don't matter when the light comes.

It is Ok for you to quote features of a non-operational future fighter but we can't?

I did not say SAAB Eriye is equivalent to Phalcons.. I said SAAB is far experienced in building radars and their Erieye was deployed in Pakistan .

So, our DRDO AEW&CS does not count as experience?!

As I already told, I'm here providing my views.. "Fetish" is a rather rogue way of portraying one's views.. I feel that Gripen should be a partner of DRDO in developing AMCA.. That's it.. It has got experience and expertise and along with our experience and resources we can have a grand success with our AMCA like we had with Brahmos..
That's it... I'm not pitching for procuring existing Gripens, since it will somehow undermine the need for our Tejas.. However SAAB is one such organisation which can share a lot with India and which is also known for developing high quality defence systems..

I apologize for using that word. But you still did not prove how Saab/Swedish is more experienced enough for $10+ billion investment for MII.

 

[Allen Iverson]

You do understand our startagic engines are developed by GTRE not HAL rite ?

GTRE(Gas Turbine Research and Development Establishment) is a part of DRDO, instead of DRDO I typed HAL..

You answered to my post asking 'How Saab is different from HAL/ADA?' saying swedish (VOLVO) have more experience with engine than us. Now you are claiming adding FADEC to GE404 is some exceptional achievement.
Hope you know we have developed an engine named Kavari with indigenous FADEC thanks to DARE. We licencee produce hundreds of Adour Mk 871,Mk 811,AL 31FP,RD 33, R29,R25 etc.We make more than 50% inhouse for AL 31/RD33. We may have produced more modern engines in last 10 years than Swedish ever made in last 50 years. And how did without making a modern engine they become more experienced?

Again I'm telling you, Comparing to all those achievements by GTRE or DRDO in terms of Propulsion systems is not right.. What we do is assemble in KD, SKD kits or at the maximum get the parts manufactured locally with specs and Drawings provided by the OEM.. The only indigenous effort was during GTRE-X or Kaveri project, but it is stuck at a very critical phase.. Where as the VOLVO has done far more than that.. VOLVO has developed their own FADEC by early nineties.. DRDO or GTRE had done it after the development of KAVERI.. VOLVO has understood the GE engines and designed their own Y-Ducts in the compressor inlet to have better fuel efficiency than the original GE engines.. They have also developed certain crucial parts as per the requirement of Swedish Airspace to have better reliability and to sustain Bird hits.. Now that is indegenous.. They have the techs required but they didn't needed a completely indegenous product because there was no need for that and the swedes also had no export restrictions in terms of the Engines(Except for those countries under sanctions). Now Compare the situations and tell me if you want to compare the Two in the same league???
@A.P. Richelieu @PARIKRAMA @Taygibay If you guys could add to what I quoted above..??

Bhayya, This is about future MII LWF. btw LCA mk2A is already ordered, don't matter when the light comes.

It is Ok for you to quote features of a non-operational future fighter but we can't?

No.. My reply was when you compared to Grippen, with the current day Specifications to LCA MK1A.. As on date comparison is what I had given there.. Grippen with its Selex Made AESA and LCA with ELTA made Pulse Doppler..

So, our DRDO AEW&CS does not count as experience?!

No.. U just have to check the SAAB page to see how advanced they are in terms of Avionics and Radars and for how many years and how many countries they have exported their radar systems too.. But if you compare SAAB and BEL or DRDO on the same levels then it is like comparing to apples and oranges..

I apologize for using that word. But you still did not prove how Saab/Swedish is more experienced enough for $10+ billion investment for MII.

Bofors Howitzers is a SAAB made weapon and we all know how it kicks *** even today, it is an evidence to SAAB's quality.. SAAB had a legacy of Building highly advanced fighter Jets such as Viggen, Grippen etc from scratch for more than 40 years.. They have successfully exported those fighter jets and kept the end users satisfied with the performance and after sales service.. They were the first in the world to successfully create and deploy a canard wing fighter jets in the world.. They have created their own GAN modules based AESA Radar and it is about to enter production.. They have enough experience and expertise in modifying and finetuning GE , P&W engines according to their needs..
They are also in the process of designing a 5th generation fighter jet for international market.. I would say these qualities are enough for a company to venture in MII.. And moreover, it is SAAB which is going to invest Billions.. Not the Indian Govt.. They just need a market to sell if they come up with something awesome..
Just my views..