Make In India - Fighter Jet musings - News, Developments, Updates - F16,F18, Gripen, Any other

[abc123xyx]

Unfortunately, AMCA would not see the light until 2035-2040.

India would need ToT from RAFALE, FGFA & Gripen deals before AMCA could kick start.

all india need is a engine for AMCA.

 

[dadeechi]

all india need is a engine for AMCA.

AESA, Avionics, Manufacturing tech...

India needs to transition from PSUs to Private MICs before AMCA takeoff.

BJP government has a sound plan for that.

 

[newindiandefence]

In ten years the J31 will by flying with pakistan. And J20 with China.

So it does not make sense for India to buy Non stealth aircrafts in large numbers anymore.

We will already have Su 30MKI,upgraded Jaguar, Mirage 2000, Mig 29, LCA and Rafale. What is the point of purchasing more non stealth aircraft's ?


AMCA is the need of the hour. Not F16 or Grippen E.

Actually India wanted to buy 126 rafale and cost could be around 25-27 billion $
. but DM mp divided the cost .

If we go for rafale we get 126 rafale

Now
9 billion for 36 rafale
7 billion for 270 super sukhoi
13 billion for other 200 jets .

So by this we will get 500 4.5+ gen fighter in SAME COST.

And other projects fgfa/amca will run in there line also they will be not efected by this purchase .

 

[TimePass]

Actually India wanted to buy 126 rafale and cost could be around 25-27 billion $
. but DM mp divided the cost .

If we go for rafale we get 126 rafale

Now
9 billion for 36 rafale
7 billion for 270 super sukhoi
13 billion for other 200 jets .

So by this we will get 500 4.5+ gen fighter in SAME COST.

And other projects fgfa/amca will run in there line also they will be not efected by this purchase .

MMRCA negotiation broke down because the French wanted to share screwdriver technology and pretend that is "offset". THAT is why we are limiting the buy to 36 Rafale.

So what we want is not as relevant as what is available.

Reality is its cheaper and more practical to spend 1-10 Billion in India and put the AMCA on Fast Track rather than expect any serious MII from F-16.

The short fall should be made up by Tejas / LCA mk1A - Mk2.

Grippen -E engine is from the US so it cannot provide MII even if it wants to. Best is to make them partners in the AMCA program.

 

[Ryuzaki]

all india need is a engine for AMCA.

No,India also needs an evironment for aerospace engineering where Tier2 and Tier-3 suppliers would supply to an integrator(HAL and LM) and thus speed up the assemling of planes.

 

[Indiran Chandiran]

A bit off topic but not irrelevant to this thread.Even after @PARIKRAMA & @Abingdonboy among many other users out here have through their various sources & postd quite convincingly proved why this MII between GoI & GoF DA - Reliance Rafale deal will not be restricted to 36 or even 54 A/c , we still see posts asking for curtailment of the Rafale to a mere 36 A/c citing lack of funds & the high price tag , arguing for a diversion of funds to the AMCA programme .

Issues - Assuming that the AMCA programme is for a 5 th gen fighter A/c , have we identified what are the core technologies that we need to develop in mission mode in house or seek collaborations for in order to render this programme a time bound & a successful one & how far have we reached ?

And if we haven't , why haven't we ?

Answer - There aren't any on going programmes .As of now the AMCA is still on the drawing board in the conceptual stage.There aren't any proposals to go in for wind tunnel tests too for validation of design.

The various core technologies to be developed have been identified & work hasn't progressed beyond that .All this isn't for want of funds but due to a lack of depth / maturity in our technological prowess of our various state , semi state & quasi state R&D organisations apart from project mismanagement so evident in the Tejas programme .

 

[R&D]

A bit off topic but not irrelevant to this thread.Even after @PARIKRAMA & @Abingdonboy among many other users out here have through their various sources & postd quite convincingly proved why this MII between GoI & GoF DA - Reliance Rafale deal will not be restricted to 36 or even 54 A/c , we still see posts asking for curtailment of the Rafale to a mere 36 A/c citing lack of funds & the high price tag , arguing for a diversion of funds to the AMCA programme .

Issues - Assuming that the AMCA programme is for a 5 th gen fighter A/c , have we identified what are the core technologies that we need to develop in mission mode in house or seek collaborations for in order to render this programme a time bound & a successful one & how far have we reached ?

And if we haven't , why haven't we ?

Answer - There aren't any on going programmes .As of now the AMCA is still on the drawing board in the conceptual stage.There aren't any proposals to go in for wind tunnel tests too for validation of design.

The various core technologies to be developed have been identified & work hasn't progressed beyond that .All this isn't for want of funds but due to a lack of depth / maturity in our technological prowess of our various state , semi state & quasi state R&D organisations apart from project mismanagement so evident in the Tejas programme .

That is probably because many posters are not naive enough to believe rumours posted in pdf about a Rafale bonanza, especially when all evidence point to the contrary.

Not all core tech for the AMCA has to be developed. LCA and Arjun program has taught us that its much better to import certain tech. and then develop them in India at a later stage and replace the foreign tech with desi maal.

No doubt AMCA is in cold storage, but it needs to be put on a fast track if we really want to have a sustainable program and institutionalise domestic R&D.

More than project mismanagement, what is lacking is faith in the developers and a willingness to stick our necks out and pump in the funds without fear of failure.

Make the funds available and see the magic happen. From Local R&D to project management. Nothing exists in vacuum. First step is to increase oxygen.

 

[BON PLAN]

In ten years the J31 will by flying with pakistan. And J20 with China.

So it does not make sense for India to buy Non stealth aircrafts in large numbers anymore.

We will already have Su 30MKI,upgraded Jaguar, Mirage 2000, Mig 29, LCA and Rafale. What is the point of purchasing more non stealth aircraft's ?


AMCA is the need of the hour. Not F16 or Grippen E.

In ten years the mainstay of pakistan will be JF17, not J31.

Posting after a long long time.. But I read the forum everyday.

Just one question - Where is PARIKRAMA ?? Did he leave the forum or was he banned ?

Not banned. He is now one of the main guy of indiandefense.com

Actually India wanted to buy 126 rafale and cost could be around 25-27 billion $
. but DM mp divided the cost .

If we go for rafale we get 126 rafale

Now
9 billion for 36 rafale
7 billion for 270 super sukhoi
13 billion for other 200 jets .

So by this we will get 500 4.5+ gen fighter in SAME COST.

And other projects fgfa/amca will run in there line also they will be not efected by this purchase .

too simple my friend.
In the 9 billion of the rafale deal you pay ALL the fixed costs (two air base accomodation, integration of new meapons, new helmet....). All new Rafale will cost you 95 USD million.

 

[Indiran Chandiran]

That is probably because many posters are not naive enough to believe rumours posted in pdf about a Rafale bonanza, especially when all evidence point to the contrary.

Not all core tech for the AMCA has to be developed. LCA and Arjun program has taught us that its much better to import certain tech. and then develop them in India at a later stage and replace the foreign tech with desi maal.

No doubt AMCA is in cold storage, but it needs to be put on a fast track if we really want to have a sustainable program and institutionalise domestic R&D.

More than project mismanagement, what is lacking is faith in the developers and a willingness to stick our necks out and pump in the funds without fear of failure.

Make the funds available and see the magic happen. From Local R&D to project management. Nothing exists in vacuum. First step is to increase oxygen.

I didn't complete my previous post.I t got interrupted due to some pressing urgency post which I lost my train of thought.

Point by point answer - The road map as it seems to lay out suggests that in the interim post the signing of the Rafale deal for 36 A/c in a flyaway condition , attention seems to have shifted to the MRCA / LCA for obvious reasons .The LCA in its current form has no takers.It's expected to take anyway between 5-10 years to develop a version acceptable to the IAF.

In the immediate term , the IAF stands to mothball some 300 A/c beginning next year - a process involving MiG 21 , MiG 27 , primarily but also some Jaguar which can't be upgraded under the DARIN - III Upgrades.The deficit is expected to be made good by the MII involving either the F-16 or F-18 or SAAB Gripen in tandem with A/c christened the LCA - Mk1a the compromise brokered between the MoD between IAF & the ADA / HAL - R& D & manufacturer combine .

This is where people seem to be conflating issues pertaining to the MMRCA & the LCA suggesting that the teens or SAAB are effectively replacements for the MII Rafale .
Now we can either wait for time to answer yours & my queries or debate this issue till the cows come home .What we have are two distinct camps - one which holds your line of argument & the second which would adopt the stand I've taken .

The analogy offered by you citing the R & D work involving the Arjun or LCA doesn't hold good as 5 th Gen Stealth technologies are state of the art secrets , not items bought off the shelf. All you have to do is refer to the whole PAKFA / FGFA imbroglio to know why in spite of contributing 50% of the developmental cost & agreeing to a reduced workload , HAL / MoD / IAF still haven't been made privy to the detailed engineering work in various fields being carried out which has resulted in the final IGA between GoR & GoI being in the cold storage for all these years .


Project AMCA will run full steam ahead post the R & D for LCA - Mk -2 which should be concluded around 2022 - 23 timeline .Till then you will see JV's between Indian R & D outfits & foreign entities for core technologies so crucial in developing 5 th Gen Fighter A/c .

When I referred to project mismanagement , I don't hold ADA / DRDO to be solely responsible for the mess , the user department has been aloof & the MoD which should be been the process owner cum lead reviewer of the various indigenous projects seems to have abdicated it's responsibilities.

Availibility of funds seems to be a percentage issue .It's an issue & not an issue at the same time .I don't think it's the reason why work isn't progressing .

 

[R&D]

I didn't complete my previous post.I t got interrupted due to some pressing urgency post which I lost my train of thought.

Point by point answer - The road map as it seems to lay out suggests that in the interim post the signing of the Rafale deal for 36 A/c in a flyaway condition , attention seems to have shifted to the MRCA / LCA for obvious reasons .The LCA in its current form has no takers.It's expected to take anyway between 5-10 years to develop a version acceptable to the IAF.

In the immediate term , the IAF stands to mothball some 300 A/c beginning next year - a process involving MiG 21 , MiG 27 , primarily but also some Jaguar which can't be upgraded under the DARIN - III Upgrades.The deficit is expected to be made good by the MII involving either the F-16 or F-18 or SAAB Gripen in tandem with A/c christened the LCA - Mk1a the compromise brokered between the MoD between IAF & the ADA / HAL - R& D & manufacturer combine .

This is where people seem to be conflating issues pertaining to the MMRCA & the LCA suggesting that the teens or SAAB are effectively replacements for the MII Rafale .
Now we can either wait for time to answer yours & my queries or debate this issue till the cows come home .What we have are two distinct camps - one which holds your line of argument & the second which would adopt the stand I've taken .

The analogy offered by you citing the R & D work involving the Arjun or LCA doesn't hold good as 5 th Gen Stealth technologies are state of the art secrets , not items bought off the shelf. All you have to do is refer to the whole PAKFA / FGFA imbroglio to know why in spite of contributing 50% of the developmental cost & agreeing to a reduced workload , HAL / MoD / IAF still haven't been made privy to the detailed engineering work in various fields being carried out which has resulted in the final IGA between GoR & GoI being in the cold storage for all these years .


Project AMCA will run full steam ahead post the R & D for LCA - Mk -2 which should be concluded around 2022 - 23 timeline .Till then you will see JV's between Indian R & D outfits & foreign entities for core technologies so crucial in developing 5 th Gen Fighter A/c .

When I referred to project mismanagement , I don't hold ADA / DRDO to be solely responsible for the mess , the user department has been aloof & the MoD which should be been the process owner cum lead reviewer of the various indigenous projects seems to have abdicated it's responsibilities.

Availibility of funds seems to be a percentage issue .It's an issue & not an issue at the same time .I don't think it's the reason why work isn't progressing .

Problem 1.) IAF stands to mothball some 300 A/c beginning next year - a process involving MiG 21 , MiG 27 , primarily but also some Jaguar which can't be upgraded

Solution = Use LCA to fill up the numbers. Purchase More Rafale to make up for gap in Quality. Find balance.



Problem 2.) 5 th Gen Stealth technologies are state of the art secrets , not items bought off the shelf.

Solution = That is where Offset for Rafale comes in. Use the offset to acquire more tech for 5th Gen stealth tech. Like stealth pain, Active cancellation, hardened landing gear for AC operations, EMC/EMI shielding , sensor fusion etc.



Problem 3.) AKFA / FGFA imbroglio to know why in spite of contributing 50% of the developmental cost & agreeing to a reduced workload , HAL / MoD / IAF still haven't been made privy to the detailed engineering work in various fields being carried out

Reality = 1.) we have paid squat. Only the initial 250 million $ which was spent on Indian scientist and mapping PAKFA requirement and maybe a few Avionics tech.

2.) Russia made all the investment and did all the hard work. So now we have to work hard to convince them to share tech.



Problem 4.) Project AMCA will run full steam ahead post the R & D for LCA - Mk -2 which should be concluded around 2022 - 23 timeline .

Solution = Run AMCA and LCA-Mk2 in Parallel AFTER getting firm buy in from the IAF. It is foolish to run in one behind the other.

 

[dadeechi]

AMCA would not get off the drawing board until 2025 and would only see the light around 2035...

Only RAFALEs and F-16s are ready for immediate procurement.

FGFA & Gripen would need atleast another 5 years before they could be inducted.

 

[Skull and Bones]

BJP government has a sound plan for that.

Congress had?

 

[dadeechi]

Congress had?

Congress plan was to expand the PSUs via Made in India

BJP's plan is to expand private MIC via Make in India

 

[Hephaestus]

In ten years the mainstay of pakistan will be JF17, not J31.
In the 9 billion of the rafale deal you pay ALL the fixed costs (two air base accomodation, integration of new meapons, new helmet....). All new Rafale will cost you 95 USD million.

All this 5th gen talk is balderdash. Let the FGFA come when it has to. In the meantime MII part of the Rafale deal should be finalised asap. We keep forgetting the IN requirements. Rafale M is the best option.

There just ain't a better bird than Rafale for India to buy & manufacture.

On the other hand F-16's and Gripen should both come in too. F-16 with full ToT & Gripen assisting Tejas.

 

[BON PLAN]

All this 5th gen talk is balderdash. Let the FGFA come when it has to. In the meantime MII part of the Rafale deal should be finalised asap. We keep forgetting the IN requirements. Rafale M is the best option.

There just ain't a better bird than Rafale for India to buy & manufacture.

On the other hand F-16's and Gripen should both come in too. F-16 with full ToT & Gripen assisting Tejas.

F16 will NEVER come with full ToT. You could assemble it, made someparts, but never the core of the US engine, mains parts of US radar or datalink.... NEVER.

Gripen, if it comes in India will NOT help Tejas. it will kill Tejas !