Limited War Possible: Indian Army Chief Kapoor

[psifactor]

yea it will be a limited nuclear war.

 

[DavyJones]

What General Kapoor says is correct. But no government can take the risk. War is a terrible risk and India's standing in the world will be diminished. The massive economic development will be stalled and MNCs will leave the country en masse.
So yes - while limited war is possible - it is not in India or Pakistan's interest. Expect the same terror strikes and sabre rattling. India defintel won't attack Pakistan ever again. Will Pakistan attack India ? Pakistani members can think about this question

 

[Windjammer]

. Will Pakistan attack India ? Pakistani members can think about this question

Before even posing such a query, you just need to observe as who has been the habitual aggressor, always shying away from talks, experiencing troubled relations with all immediate neighbours, adamant to be seen as a mini power hence so it could dictate and over and above, always blaming Pakistan for it's internal turbalances.
Not to mention, not honoring any of mutually agreed resolutions.

 

[naseebkhanniazi]

my dear i am totly against the extrmest becaus they have no riight to rule the peace ful world . here we talk about any type of action is dengreous in sence of reaction india is worried about terror attack aganist them but on other side pakistan is also sufring from threat's by india we start samjhota express then what happen 65 pakistani's were burned by indian's
india alway's thinking and practicaly stop water and destroing the pakistan agri sector can you tell me is this the right way to make any hope from pk about peace process?

 

[ambidex]

Chill out guys the comment was for domestic consumption.
I don't think IA Chief can ever think for starting Kargil type of war unlike erstwhile PA chief.

I am afraid this is not true. At right opportunity i will present my argument with reliable online sources; which are not readily available now.

Gen. Kapoor knows what he is saying. This is very rare but it is a well phrased statement and he is not the only one who has said so.

I was reading one of the well explained assertions of 'AM' this morning about Gen. Kayani's comment about ~Pakistan being made on the name of Islam. I hope he will talk about this issue to make this discussion well on track.

Out of topic: people those who just want to rant should go to youtube, they are most welcome there. Please do not derail this debate.

I am so frustrated to see Pakistanis are taking a Generals statement with benign and humiliating tone and treating him as he is an ordinary chit chatter.

Let me help:

What Pakistan will do in case a limited nuclear war following a typical clod start doctrine i.e rapid, sudden, through and through?

How credible are Pakistan's nuclear capabilities against such limited war, when time will be your enemy not India at large?

Rest of the questions after getting answers for above two. Please no rants!
thanks.

 

[DavyJones]

@Windjammer - you seem to have poor knowledge of history. Pak attacked Kashmir in 1947-48 and again in 1965. The 1971 war was also started by Pakistan with it's bombing of air bases of 3ed Dec 1971. 1999 Kargil war was a clear violation of the Simla agreement. In Siachen the LoC was not defined mutually. Kargil LoC was clearly marked in the Simla Agreement. Please read up on your history before commenting.
India has problems with Bangladesh among it's neighbours. This is due to rise in Islamic fundamentalism in BD. Bhutan, Nepal, Maldives, Sri Lanka are Indian allies.
Btw it was a simple question - Will Pakistan start a war or not ? India defintely won't!

 

[notorious_eagle]

I am afraid this is not true. At right opportunity i will present my argument with reliable online sources; which are not readily available now.

Gen. Kapoor knows what he is saying. This is very rare but it is a well phrased statement and he is not the only one who has said so.

I was reading one of the well explained assertions of 'AM' this morning about Gen. Kayani's comment about ~Pakistan being made on the name of Islam. I hope he will talk about this issue to make this discussion well on track.

Out of topic: people those who just want to rant should go to youtube, they are most welcome there. Please do not derail this debate.

I am so frustrated to see Pakistanis are taking a Generals statement with benign and humiliating tone and treating him as he is an ordinary chit chatter.

Let me help:

What Pakistan will do in case a limited nuclear war following a typical clod start doctrine i.e rapid, sudden, through and through?

How credible are Pakistan's nuclear capabilities against such limited war, when time will be your enemy not India at large?

Rest of the questions after getting answers for above two. Please no rants!
thanks.

You are way too much overestimating India's capabilites, Pakistan Army is well aware of what the threats are and the bulk of Pakistan's forces are deployed against India to ward off any threat. You will be surprised to see how efficiently Pakistan will mobilise for a short war, the cream assets of Pakistan Army are oiling their guns everyday to make sure the Indians stay at their side of the border. A short war in my opinion will never escalate into a nuclear war, Pakistan is well capable of defending itself and inflict heavy lossess on the Indians in case of a short war.

 

[Zohaib786]

General Kapoor had no right to say such a comment. The difference between pakistan and india is in the case of any action wether over 1 day or a month pakistan will mobilise all its resources espicially manpower, can India honestly do that. Apparently India has large Pakistan specific trained units waiting for this soo call cold start. Infact every soldier on the pakistan side has been trained to fight India. Nuclear capabilities Kapoor forgot that pakistan is rapidly advancing its arsenal to.
For a proffesional soldier of his rank to make such statements is really foul, pakistan beutifully called his bluff before after Mumbai. Please dont say America stopped you because all you had to tell your new best mate was you going after terrorists

 

[Windjammer]

@Windjammer - you seem to have poor knowledge of history. Pak attacked Kashmir in 1947-48 and again in 1965. The 1971 war was also started by Pakistan with it's bombing of air bases of 3ed Dec 1971. 1999 Kargil war was a clear violation of the Simla agreement. In Siachen the LoC was not defined mutually. Kargil LoC was clearly marked in the Simla Agreement. Please read up on your history before commenting.
India has problems with Bangladesh among it's neighbours. This is due to rise in Islamic fundamentalism in BD. Bhutan, Nepal, Maldives, Sri Lanka are Indian allies.
Btw it was a simple question - Will Pakistan start a war or not ? India defintely won't!

And you as an individual are distorting the facts of history.
The 1947 conflict was a follow up to the independence struggle as Kashmir dispute despite the UN resolutions. On the night of 6th September 1965, Pakistani Nation was sound asleep when India attacked in an effort to dissect Lahore, without even having the moral to formally declare a war. The 1971 war had in earnest begun in late November as Indian artillery was firing into the then East Pakistan in support of Muktis, by 3rd. December several engagements had already taken place between Dacca based F-86s and IAF Gnats with casualties on both sides. The base strike launched by the PAF in the West was basically a counter attack to relive pressure on the single PAF F-86 Squadron in East menaced by ten IAF Squadrons. In any case the then Indian PM Indra Gandhi is on record for stating, "Indian forces have invaded East Pakistan in..................self defence.??????
In any case, i'll answer your query with a question,
Will India address all it's outstanding issues and honor a gentlemen's agreement, or would it just merely resort to symbolic gestures.?

 

[Kasrkin]

What Pakistan will do in case a limited nuclear war following a typical clod start doctrine i.e rapid, sudden, through and through?

We have way too many fan-boys here.

India's Cold Start Doctrine has merits. It was conceived to negate the frustrations of the Indian Army in its previous attempts to confront Pakistan. However, the plan is ambitious. Way too ambitious for the likes of the Indian Army to pull of with any semblance of success according to neutral experts. This style of warfare requires initiative on the ground, excessively well-managed battlefield integration systems, loads of hardware like SP artillery and deep-rooted doctrinal changes, all of which India lacks. Not to mention, the most important of all: a formidable officer corps capable of operating relatively autonomously and confidently, which is not something India has right now or will in the near-future. They're facing an unprecedented and acute shortage of officers right now due to the booming civilian sectors and are having to accept lower and lower quality of officers, and many more internal challenges such as low morale. The Pakistan Army is no push-over, I urge you to consider this. We're not sitting on their hands as the Indian Army spends billions to acquire proficiency in a doctrine which is still elusive. The Pakistan Army does not operate with complacency, especially given that there is little Indian military leaders do other than brag about their fancy Cold Start. In a shorter war, the scales are even. Its going to be hard and fast. India doesn't plan to go 'through and through'. They can't with this doctrine and they know it. At most what this doctrine aims at is to humiliate Pakistan, even then there is MUCH doubt as to if this can be achieved. If the Indian Army Chief's advice after Mumbai is anything to go by, then even he fears that Pakistan will be capturing Indian territory, which would be politically unacceptable. There is a wide gulf between reality and what overly-nationalist people in India delude themselves into thinking. It just makes us all look stupid and lowers the quality of the discourse.

We don't take these comments way too seriously because we've come to expect threats and other amateurish behavior like this from our Eastern neighbor for a long time. What is more, we've learned to deal with it. Its the Indian fanboys who need to control their emotions and have realistic, practical discussions instead of deluding themselves into thinking that Pakistanis are going to care, after all these years, about what the Indian Army chief says for local consumption.

 

[MilesTogo]

Limited war is already going on in Pakistan right now - blame it on USA. Hopefully, by the end of this war, terror threat to India would have declined to some degree.

 

[Imran Khan]

now let me finish this

a person when he talk you can check his knowledge and seriusness look at genral kiyani and gen kapoor who make cheap commints in media and who is serius .when genral kapoor talk there is no value of that in near future because he has no idea what he is talking abut.a man who lead 1mn troops looking like a teen guy drunk or unserius .its really not good for india.remember world is not bollywood as mr.kapoor think.

 

[ambidex]

Thanks for your post, it been long time having read some thing out from your typewriter.

We have way too many fan-boys here.

It is better to be a fan boy than abusing Army men. I have no intention to alarm any one from other side to know what else India can do in case of war. Furthermore i was trying to make people think out of the box. Ironically to me i have never underestimated Pakistan's capabilities and may be it was my effort to get some idea of contingency plans of PA.

India's Cold Start Doctrine has merits. It was conceived to negate the frustrations of the Indian Army in its previous attempts to confront Pakistan. However, the plan is ambitious.

So you are rejecting it in detail that India is not thinking differently this time.

Way too ambitious for the likes of the Indian Army to pull of with any semblance of success according to neutral experts. This style of warfare requires initiative on the ground, excessively well-managed battlefield integration systems, loads of hardware like SP artillery and deep-rooted doctrinal changes, all of which India lacks. Not to mention, the most important of all: a formidable officer corps capable of operating relatively autonomously and confidently, which is not something India has right now or will in the near-future.
They're facing an unprecedented and acute shortage of officers right now due to the booming civilian sectors and are having to accept lower and lower quality of officers, and many more internal challenges such as low morale.

Is this a propaganda or underestimation of Indian Capabilities?

I think you are neglecting the fact that concentration of force is still best(universal) strategy after being strong in general and at the time of decision. India has understood this very well recently and know this still matters to counter Pakistan even today and we still have overwhelming numbers.

The Pakistan Army is no push-over, I urge you to consider this. We're not sitting on their hands as the Indian Army spends billions to acquire proficiency in a doctrine which is still elusive.

This will not help, at the end of day(in future) Pakistan will struggle to have counter strategy/ effectual contingency plan with maximum probability of success in place to ever experimenting Indian Army. This is what we are doing at the cost of spending Billions. I am afraid Pakistan will not be able to afford and wait.

Forget about the Cold start, the Indian Army is large enough to devote several corps to the strike role; after or simultaneous pinning down enemy by holding & mix corps. I know Pa is not sitting on their hands, but your are filling your conventional gap by sluggish nuclear capabilities, when nuclear war is not winnable for both sides once started as you might know this.

Being an aggressor the Indian way of limited war doest mean the opening hole will be made via nuke at the start.
Also entrenching forces will be able to get immunity to nuclear annihilation once entered into enemy territories.

The Pakistan Army does not operate with complacency,

Precisely, no one does.But the way Pakistanis speak here proves the same.
Anyhow i trust you more then others. Its was good to know that Pakistan is vulnerable and does not feel secure, same as India.

especially given that there is little Indian military leaders do other than brag about their fancy Cold Start. In a shorter war, the scales are even. Its going to be hard and fast. India doesn't plan to go 'through and through'. They can't with this doctrine and they know it.

Through and through means Islamabad, if i am not wrong.
How about if we become born forward. Try to correlate recent logistical placements!

At most what this doctrine aims at is to humiliate Pakistan, even then there is MUCH doubt as to if this can be achieved. If the Indian Army Chief's advice after Mumbai is anything to go by, then even he fears that Pakistan will be capturing Indian territory, which would be politically unacceptable.

Your are picking bits and pieces from available Cold war doctrine's information.
Pakistan capturing territory will not force Surrender.
As i assumed through and through means Islamabad; and New Delhi is still distant.

There is a wide gulf between reality and what overly-nationalist people in India delude themselves into thinking. It just makes us all look stupid and lowers the quality of the discourse.

It is your fake Inferiority complex speaking.

Cold war doctrine only explains that Pakistan is superior army and is difficult to dealt with with conventional full scale war. Furthermore India feels itself more answerable to world community than Pakistan who will never mind sending NLI across LOC at whim.

We don't take these comments way too seriously because we've come to expect threats and other amateurish behavior like this from our Eastern neighbor for a long time.

Now your are talking like a Fan boy yourself.
I have read you many times, tagging Indians as aggressors every time. If i could have trusted your tag of India being an aggressor then why this time you have problems accepting India will be an aggressor this time again with surprise attack. Are you self contradicting?
This is my wild guess that India will be an aggressors this time for sure. That is why i have no problems defending Gen. Kapoor.

What is more, we've learned to deal with it. Its the Indian fanboys who need to control their emotions and have realistic, practical discussions instead of deluding themselves into thinking that Pakistanis are going to care, after all these years, about what the Indian Army chief says for local consumption.

Practical discussion! at the cost; disregarding perception of threat. I am a optimist person and wont mind being futuristic.
I have no problem what so ever, to trust him and I think this is the only critical difference between you and me.

If I can agree with your school of thoughts then we should close this thread after getting your assertions. I wont mind that.
But will request you with due respect that please answer my question
or i will ask differently for other readers as well that how long(time) it will take for Pakistan to alarm nuclear command to assemble nuke and toss it in the air towards east.

 

[Kasrkin]

Thanks for your post, it been long time having read some thing out from your typewriter.

You're most welcome there.

Ironically to me i have never underestimated Pakistan's capabilities and may be it was my effort to get some idea of contingency plans of PA.

Interesting. The only thing I can tell you about our counter-Cold Start plan is that we have one. Not because I am not authorized to speak of it, but because I don't know. It takes into account the Cold Start's potential to undermine our own considerable offensive plans. But I know that Pakistanis are very paranoid about this sort of stuff, a little too much in my opinion. Therefore you have this vacuum in terms of information on Pakistan's obvious counter-plans.

So you are rejecting it in detail that India is not thinking differently this time.

I don't know how you drew that conclusion. But I do know it is incorrect.

I think you are neglecting the fact that concentration of force is still best(universal) strategy after being strong in general and at the time of decision. India has understood this very well recently and know this still matters to counter Pakistan even today and we still have overwhelming numbers.

You have concentration of force which is what India went for before. This negates the full potential of utilizing your numbers since you're engaged with the enemy on a relatively limited battlefront where he is also massing his forces. On the other hand what Cold Start seeks to do is diffuse the concentration so that superior numbers can be exploited through multiple battlefronts. Though the plan has potential to be an awesome success, making it impossible for the Pakistanis to concentrate their numbers to make up for your numerical superiority. There is also a lot of potential for everything to fall apart if your Integrated Battle Groups are poorly lead and poorly coordinated. Then not only do you lose your strength in numbers but also the qualitative superiority of Pakistani troops (which is something some scholars reckon we maintain) will take its toll on your IBGs in our territory and open to concentrated flanking or counter-attacks. Not to mention you won't have much armor to hold up our own formidable strike corps. Furthermore, mobility is something Pakistan Army can still pride itself on (even though thats largely because of our lack of East-West axis). I hope this makes sense. I do not underestimate the potential of this doctrine, but I am realistic as to its chances of success at this time. Also I am in no denial over its provocative nature, the likes of which has rarely been tolerated in International Relations.

This will not help, at the end of day(in future) Pakistan will struggle to have counter strategy/ effectual contingency plan with maximum probability of success in place to ever experimenting Indian Army. This is what we are doing at the cost of spending Billions. I am afraid Pakistan will not be able to afford and wait.

Now that is what I would call assuming too much. Just because Pakistan can't match India dollar by dollar doesn't mean we're not good at doing what we do. And it certainly doesn't mean we're not keeping an eye on you. Your line of arguing is incredibly vague and flawed. Just because Israel didn't have nearly as much money at its disposal as the Arabs doesn't mean their armed forces didn't come up with better, more powerful, uses for that money and in the end came up on top with a big margin. Pakistan HAS deterred an attack on itself from India for almost 40 years, despite numerous Indian deployments, through counter-deployments and check-mate moves. And therefore this frustration to try something new in the Indian high command, I only fear that in this they've over exerted themselves. I admire their innovative leap and commitment to go to such lengths against Pakistan, in a way, BUT I am obliged to point out why I'm not particularly worried and why I think so many Indians are getting ahead of themselves here.

Unfortunately talking to many Indians here, I am resigned to the fact that war is inevitable. But all I'm trying to do is impress on you the futility of that course of action. Cold Start is not a solution to the Pakistan-India rivalry. It is an escalation. Nothing good will come out of it, not for us and certainly not for you. If Pakistan had sufficient diplomatic muscle then this would never have been allowed to go operational. I mean what country would allow so many offensive troops, tanks and jets to be placed RIGHT next to its border by an enemy state with the stated aim of attacking eventually. When India started rolling tanks towards the border, which lets face it they did almost once every decade, the world capitals used to kick into action and war was avoided. This time there will be none of that, no count-down to war. This will be a perpetual state of war, eye to eye. The International Border might end up like the LoC with those good old artillery duels. Not to mention the ridiculous amount of mining and fencing.

I'll address the rest of your post later, hopefully when I make time.

 

[Goodperson]

I am afraid this is not true. At right opportunity i will present my argument with reliable online sources; which are not readily available now.

Gen. Kapoor knows what he is saying. This is very rare but it is a well phrased statement and he is not the only one who has said so.

I was reading one of the well explained assertions of 'AM' this morning about Gen. Kayani's comment about ~Pakistan being made on the name of Islam. I hope he will talk about this issue to make this discussion well on track.

Out of topic: people those who just want to rant should go to youtube, they are most welcome there. Please do not derail this debate.

I am so frustrated to see Pakistanis are taking a Generals statement with benign and humiliating tone and treating him as he is an ordinary chit chatter.

Let me help:

What Pakistan will do in case a limited nuclear war following a typical clod start doctrine i.e rapid, sudden, through and through?

How credible are Pakistan's nuclear capabilities against such limited war, when time will be your enemy not India at large?

Rest of the questions after getting answers for above two. Please no rants!
thanks.

Gen Kapoor made only a reiterated statement already made by home minister. There is nothing into it. India has never been known as aggressor. India would only react unlike erstwhile PA General.