Lessons in hate and violence-undercover in a mainstream UK Muslim School

[Roybot]

Watch the video of a despicable act. Read the YouTube comments following the videos. They are duly condemning the acts of the Church, but it is legal !!]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZGKx2pTBQc&feature=related

The Churchs van is hit by a rock, an illegal act.

If you look at the first two pages of this thread, you ll find that the protest video in UK was put as an argument, as to why Islamophobia is on the rise, and why it seems to be a consequence of Muslim radicalism in the western countries. No one said that it was illegal, its just incites other people. Evil begets more evil.

These "church groups" protesting in America are fringe elements of the society, just like the radical jihadist nutters. The western society does enough to counter its nut cases, but I don't think the mainstream Muslims are doing enough to counter its fringe elements. This Islamophobia issue is pushing the mainstream Muslims into victim mentality. And the radical Muslims have got yet another tool in the name of "Western Islamophobia", to brainwash the normal Muslims and persuade them to join their ranks.

Once you are a accepted or born as a citizen in a country, all the perks are applied to you, unless otherwise stated. If the law says "if you are a naturalized Muslim, you cannot protest certain issues", however unfair that maybe, that law will have to be obeyed simply because you consented to it as a covenant. You gotta understand that law exists to control certain acts, absence of that those acts are legal acts.

If people protested violently against facebook issues, then they should be punished for that. If the pastor of that Florida church went ahead with Quran burning, I would have had no problem with that. I didn't notice any violent protest in USA about the burning issue.

Glad you agree that violent protests should be punished and everyone should follow the law of the land.

But earlier you said, how there's nothing wrong in the video, except the teacher hitting the kids, for which he should be charged with assault. So you have no issues, with the students being taught to vilify Hindus, being taught that over 1 Billion Hindus are dumb to follow their religion? Would you be ok with the fact that your kid is being taught to look down upon Hindus just cause they have different faith and beliefs? Thats 15% of the world population btw. You have no issues with student being taught to never trust a person who doesn't have a fistful of beard on his face? Do you have a fistful of beard ? Are you ok with the fact that young muslims are being taught to not trust people who look like you? You have no issue with the fact that young muslims kids are being taught to hate pretty much anything and anyone who is slightly different? That stupid mullah gave the kids all that "important knowledge" but failed to teach them one important thing, that respect is a mutual thing.

Shariah to be the law of England has as much chance as me becoming the Queen of England. I would put my money against that any day of the week, twice on a Sunday.

I know that too, so why doesn't the normal Muslims stop these nut cases from making such atrocious demands? What purpose does it serve apart from bring the closet racists out on the streets and doing anti-muslim hate crimes?

 

[Roybot]

The minority growing in India simply because Muslims tend to have a hire birthrate.

Once again not relevant to the topic, but let me just quickly refute your claims.

High birthrate isn't the only reason for the increase in minority percentage. If we go by the logic then minorities in Bangladesh must have an extremely low birthrate and negative growth rate?

Hindus constituted 18.5% of the population in 1961, but their population declined significantly during the Bangladesh Liberation War due to the 1971 Bangladesh atrocities carried out by the Pakistan Army. As a result, millions of Hindus fled to India and their population in Bangladesh fell to 13.5% by 1974. Since then, the Hindu population has not grown as much as the Muslim population.

Its really pointless to argue over this, cause there is no proper way to prove that minorities are being persecuted in Bangladesh or in India for that matter. So I think its best to avoid this topic. Atleast on this thread anyways.

The sex ratio of Muslims is on par with the rest of the world. However, same can't be said about the majority in India. There is a clear preference for boys, girl fetuses are routinely aborted by the millions. I know for sure that if this was going on in Bangladesh you would have a field day with that little fact.

Once again wrong information. The natural sex ratio is 1.1 and the figure for India sits at 1.12. So its not all that bad. I agree selective sex abortion used to be prevalent in some regions of India but that trend is on a decline now.

This is the Indian Law regarding the selective sex abortion,

Giving or taking prenatal tests, including ultrasound scanning, solely to determine the sex of the fetus was criminalized by Indian law in 1994. In 2002, the penalties were stiffened: up to three years in jail and a Rs. 10,000 fine for the first offense and five years imprisonment and Rs. 50,000 for the second.

Have a look at all the countries.
List of countries by sex ratio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Jigs]

Islamaphobia is certainly a issue and on the rise. However we need to be objective here. You also have many jihadi groups calling for global jihad or jihad against the west. Then extremist elements being thought in schools as well. That certainly doesn't help does it ? This is not a one sided issue here and anyone who sees it as such is either Arrogant or knowingly biased.

 

[Roybot]

Once again you justify collective punishment for individuals' actions. You seem to be consumed by religion; you see everything through a religious prism.

That's unfortunate.

I don't. You see the Indian flag and your mind immediately goes in the biased mode. Not all Indians are anti-Muslim, in fact only a small minority are. I am against any radical version of any religion.

India is relevant because many Indians (not saying you specifically) promote Islamophobia as an indirect way to justify Hindu extremism.

Small correction, from what I have observed, the only thing they use to justify Hindu extremism is Islamic extremism. Evil begets evil. One stops the other one will slowly die out too. I know you don't agree with this point of view, but to each his own.

While violence is never justified, the protestors had a valid point. European law restricts free speech in many contexts involving racial hatred and the Holocaust. The protestor were demanding equal treatment: if some sensibilities are protected by the law, then why not theirs? Why the double standard in European laws?

Since when sensitivities need to be protected by law. Are Muslims shown in the video sensitive to other religion and faiths? Most certainly not. Once again,I know you have already condemned the video, but I am finding it hard to believe that this was an isolated case, in fact this hate for other religion runs much deeper. And Holocaust was a reality. It was an physical crime against humanity. Thousands of Jewish people were killed for just being Jewish! I don't see why would anyone want to talk against it, apart from the conspiracy theorist.

These people want sharia law for Muslims only. Non-Muslims would not be impacted. Again, special religious courts already exist for Jewish communities in the UK and Canada. These people are not asking for special rights; they want the same rights as already exist for other citizens.

As far as I know they want Shariah law for predominantly Muslim areas of UK. They want to create a state within a state. The demand for Shariah Law is opposed by Muslim Council Of Britain itself, so I don't know why would anyone want to justify such demands.

Here's an interesting article about it,

BBC NEWS | UK | Magazine | The end of one law for all?

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Except that the Middle East politics
is dominated by Israel, and it is the Israelis[
/U] who have made religion the centerpiece of the debate. George Bush did say he receives guidance from God. Evangelicals do dominate Republican politics. AIPAC does dominate American foreign polocy in the region.


.

i guess you are just trying to hang on little things to defend your point. with out getting in to details i would say every country will have some elements/ groups influencing govt but still they (countries)all got it 99% right and remaining will be perfected. perfecting secularism is not a one day job it's an ongoing process. even if i agree the israel point(because i don't know much about israel issue) it still does not answer terror attacks around the world.can't you see that.so stop being a sympathier.
terrorism will end when people become more liberal and stop recognising everything from religious angle.open your windows to modern society, modern thinking , modern education, secularism, revive islam and loosen hard core laws..things will come to normal slowly. slowly only others will also take time to get rid of this islamophobia.

 

[Developereo]

Islamaphobia is certainly a issue and on the rise. However we need to be objective here. You also have many jihadi groups calling for global jihad or jihad against the west. Then extremist elements being thought in schools as well. That certainly doesn't help does it ? This is not a one sided issue here and anyone who sees it as such is either Arrogant or knowingly biased.

The issue is not jihadis, but whether a whole religion should be maligned for the actions of extremists. Such generalizations are not applied to other religions, even though their extremists also kill thousands of people, albeit through organized armies and police forces. The defenders of Islamophobia are arguing that the jihadis are just the tip of the iceberg, and extremism is supported by the wider Muslim community.

Why should a mainstream, well-integrated, middle class Muslim in London be held accountable for the actions of some extremist mullahs in Birmingham?

Not all Indians are anti-Muslim, in fact only a small minority are.

By your own logic, however, we should hold all Indian Hindus accountable for the actions of Hindu extremists. Even some guy working on a farm in Kerala who never heard of these goons.

Small correction, from what I have observed, the only thing they use to justify Hindu extremism is Islamic extremism. Evil begets evil. One stops the other one will slowly die out too. I know you don't agree with this point of view, but to each his own.

I am not going to get into a mudslinging contest about the laundry list of each religion. Suffice it to say that Hindu extremism existed for centuries before Islam ever came to the subcontinent, and it manifests itself against Christians, Sikhs, and others who are non-Muslim.

Since when sensitivities need to be protected by law.

Why do we have laws against hate speech? Holocaust speech? Why does Victoria have a law against religious vilification?

The point is that if the state is going to protect some sensibilities, then others have a legitimate reason to demand that theirs should also be protected.

And Holocaust was a reality. It was an physical crime against humanity. Thousands of Jewish people were killed for just being Jewish! I don't see why would anyone want to talk against it, apart from the conspiracy theorist.

People are not talking against it; some people question the numbers claimed and the participants involved. Even academic research is censored if it dares to oppose the 'official' version. Once again the question arises: why single out this particular sensibility for special protection?

As far as I know they want Shariah law for predominantly Muslim areas of UK. They want to create a state within a state. The demand for Shariah Law is opposed by Muslim Council Of Britain itself, so I don't know why would anyone want to justify such demands.

No, the request for Sharia law is as an optional legal system where Muslims can opt-in. Jews already have access to such a system.

I am not defending the request; just clarifying it.

i guess you are just trying to hang on little things to defend your point. with out getting in to details i would say every country will have some elements/ groups influencing govt but still they (countries)all got it 99% right and remaining will be perfected. perfecting secularism is not a one day job it's an ongoing process. even if i agree the israel point(because i don't know much about israel issue) it still does not answer terror attacks around the world.can't you see that.so stop being a sympathier..

I am not sympathizing, simply explaining that terrorism is a reaction to Muslim civilian deaths and proxy colonialism through dictators. I see by your flags you live in India, so you may not appreciate the utter and complete dominance of the American political and media scene by the pro-Israel crowd. This is not a fantasy; AIPAC itself ackowledges that they are the most powerful lobby in Washington. No American politician, or aspiring politician, dare oppose Israel.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

YouTube - EDL - Dispatches - Lessons in Hate and Violence (Part 1) (14-02-2011)

YouTube - Dispatches: Lessons in Hate and Violence - Part 2

YouTube - Dispatches: Lessons in Hate and Violence - Part 3

YouTube - Dispatches: Lessons in Hate and Violence - Part 4

Note the derogatory references made to Hindus and people of other faiths throughout the piece. And to think that this is being done right under the noses of the likes of Ofsted (who even commended the school for promoting religious harmony and community cohesion!) in a school that is in all probability funded by the state.

Given this is the kind of 'education' many Muslim children are receiving even in the West, there is little wonder why many contributors on here appear to hold extremely warped and bigoted views on people from other faiths and ethnicities.

The bits where the Mullah thrashes the kids would be familiar to anyone who has read 'Children of the Dust'

Oh please... is that the best you can do... quote the warped and bigoted BRITISH media as some sort of a reference??

The real hate is in the hearts of the enemies of Islam and Muslims... That is the source of all problems... These videos remind me of the phrase... blame the victims...

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

@Jigs... Those who are calling for global jihad are a small minority... Those who have Islamophobic ideas being fed by the western media now form the majority of the populations... that is the real difference...

The real problem is that the western media is run by hypocrites... when it comes down to insulting Muslims they hide behind freedom of speech/expression etc... and when challenged to open debate about these issues... they deliberately disengage... they want to present a one sided view of the whole thing... they do this because they are uncomfortable with their own way of life and like the pagans of Mecca they think they can prevent the rise of Islam by screaming and shouting and publishing nonsense i.e their usual antics and inanities...

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

@sohini dharthi you are saying muslims are victimized all over the world ? every nation, r
egion targeting them ? i am sorry..victims are those who are affected by muslims wrong assumption(most of the muslims) that every nation, religion, group is conspiring against muslims..and the actions of (few muslims).but the truth is every incident, action has it's own separate reasons.and the so called saviors of islam or the islam under attack shouting people forget that where islam is majority they don't bother to be secular..they don't think it's required because of majority opinion..they don't bother to think if that majority opinion is right or wrong.but when in secular states even if it is a small bias, influence of other region happens they don't think twice to take up arms. if america is supporting dictators that is for their interest.american is a secular country..it's not christians controlling muslims trough proxies..many big powers including china supports directors, do wrong things..it must be seen as a state policy..not a religious domination.if you try to find reasons to feel victimized, fight back i am sure there will be more than enough reasons for every other community to do the same.

 

[Dalai Lama]

The issue is not jihadis, but whether a whole religion should be maligned for the actions of extremists. Such generalizations are not applied to other religions, even though their extremists also kill thousands of people, albeit through organized armies and police forces. The defenders of Islamophobia are arguing that the jihadis are just the tip of the iceberg, and extremism is supported by the wider Muslim community.

Why should a mainstream, well-integrated, middle class Muslim in London be held accountable for the actions of some extremist mullahs in Birmingham?

Actually "a mainstream, well-integrated, middle class Muslim in London" is quite fortunate that the general British population is well educated and taught to be tolerant. Exactly the opposite of what these kids were being taught. Even after all this bad press, public demonstrations etc. the British still don't characterise you by your race or your religion (Of course you've got some ultra-nationalists like the EDL and BNP, no arguments there). And you're right, the whole religion shouldn't be maligned because of a few extremist bigots. But the responsibility to make sure that doesn't happen lies on the shoulders of the moderate muslim and so far the moderates have been conspicuous by their absence.

 

[Developereo]

@sohini dharthi you are saying muslims are victimized all over the world ? every nation, r
egion targeting them ?.

I am saying the Western media has legitimized Islamophobia and every anti-Muslim group uses 'terrorism' as a catch phrase to justify their oppression of Muslims. From Thailand to Philippines to Muslim countries, whenever governments want to suppress dissenters, they call them 'terrorists' and do away with them. This tactic is straight from the Israeli rule book that they have been using for 60 years.

Europe is in the throes of economic turmoil and they take out their frustrations by scapegoating Muslim schoolgirls. It is beyond ridiculous.

moderates have been conspicuous by their absence

That's simply note true. Mainstream Muslim organizations and clerics routinely condemn terrorism and extremism, but it rarely makes the front page because it spoils the Western media's black and white narrative of evil Muslims v/s good West.

Just google 'british muslim condemn' and you see will lots of links...

 

[Dalai Lama]

@Sohni Dharti

Yeah, I googled that like you said. My point is that the moderates need to make sure that their voice is heard. Right now the extremists are winning in that aspect. And I don't think that playing the victim of the western media will help because if anything the moderates are victims of the extremists. They should be out there protesting against the extremists.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

@Sohni Dharti

Yeah, I googled that like you said. My point is that the moderates need to make sure that their voice is heard. Right now the extremists are winning in that aspect. And I don't think that playing the victim of the western media will help because if anything the moderates are victims of the extremists. They should be out there protesting against the extremists.

Extremists are winning with plenty of support from the western media!!!

 

[Developereo]

@Sohni Dharti

Yeah, I googled that like you said. My point is that the moderates need to make sure that their voice is heard. Right now the extremists are winning in that aspect. And I don't think that playing the victim of the western media will help because if anything the moderates are victims of the extremists. They should be out there protesting against the extremists.

Not only is it impractical (how can the moderates possibly know what the extremists are up to at any given moment), it is inadvisable. Police tend to discourage rival groups protesting at the same time because it becomes that much harder to control.

Extremists are winning with plenty of support from the western media!!!

That's the point that many people miss. Islamophobia is a recruiting bonanza for the extremists.
If there's one thing the GWOT has taught us so far, it's that playing hardball backfires.

 

[Roybot]

By your own logic, however, we should hold all Indian Hindus accountable for the actions of Hindu extremists. Even some guy working on a farm in Kerala who never heard of these goons.

I have never blamed all the Muslims. I have been using the terms mainstream and radical Muslims from the very beginning to make sure am not taken the wrong way. All am saying is that mainstream Muslims aren't doing enough to counter the islamophobia. They are not coming out against these radicals. Either they are scared of these radicals or deep down they have the same feelings as the radicals, and they think that the world is after them. They just decide not to be vocal about it unlike the radicals.

I am not going to get into a mudslinging contest about the laundry list of each religion. Suffice it to say that Hindu extremism existed for centuries before Islam ever came to the subcontinent, and it manifests itself against Christians, Sikhs, and others who are non-Muslim

.

Yeah it might have been in the past, but Hindu extremism in its current train bombing avatar is a reaction to the numerous terrorist attacks in India.

Why do we have laws against hate speech? Holocaust speech? Why does Victoria have a law against religious vilification?

All these laws are universal and equal for people from all religion and race. There is no bias there.

People are not talking against it; some people question the numbers claimed and the participants involved. Even academic research is censored if it dares to oppose the 'official' version. Once again the question arises: why single out this particular sensibility for special protection?

No offence but what are you basing these claims on? The only places I have come across this theory before is on a white supremacist website and some other conspiracy theory website. Do you have any links for academic research done on this subject?

No, the request for Sharia law is as an optional legal system where Muslims can opt-in. Jews already have access to such a system.
I am not defending the request; just clarifying it.

Fair enough, but even the majority Muslim in Britain is against it. So perhaps they should reach to a consensus in this regards first. And if you are talking about the Beth Din then you probably know how limited its scope is.

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You have talked about Americans attacking Muslim countries, and other Armies killing Muslims all over the world. Does that also include the Turkish Army killing the Kurdish rebels, or Pakistani Army killing Baluch rebels, Chinese Army killing Uyghur rebels? Cause if it doesn't then it looks like hypocrisy to me.

In my opinion, in order to get rid of Islamophobia, the mainstream Muslims need to raise their voice against these radicals, make them known that they are not welcome in their countries. Victim mentality is only going to make things worse. Thats my closing argument. No point discussing this over and over again. I guess an Indian and a Pakistani can never reach consensus on any issue, no wonder we have some many unresolved issues lingering around. Ah well atleast we were able to talk without throwing insults and swearing at each other, unlike many other threads here on this forum.