Lessons in hate and violence-undercover in a mainstream UK Muslim School

[Roybot]

Reasonable people would say you were insensitive. Bigots would say Hindus were insensitive

Yeah what if i start chanting some Hindu hymns while am cursing the soldiers, would they say insensitive Hindus??

Look at this video? Do you ever ask protesters to not bring Islam into their protests? They are the one who should be blamed for maligning Islam not the others. This isn't bigotry.

 

[Developereo]

Yeah what if i start chanting some Hindu hymns while am cursing the soldiers, would they say insensitive Hindus??

Again, reasonable people will say you were an idiot; bigots would say Hindus were idiots.

Look at this video? Do you ever ask protesters to not bring Islam into their protests? They are the one who should be blamed for maligning Islam not the others. This isn't bigotry.

Why should I ask anything of a criminal or idiot?

You seem to see everything through a prism of religion.

I only see a bunch of idiots; you see a bunch of Muslims. When I see people holding anti-abortion placards with Bible verses, I see anti-abortion/pro-life activists; you would see a bunch of Christians.

 

[Roybot]

Again, you seem to see things as an all-or-nothing phenomenon. Yes, it is more than one school. And, no, it is not a whole generation. There is a lot of room between these two extremes.

See you should look at the bigger picture. We are talking about such madarsas in western countries. Think about the ones that are operating in Pakistan and other Muslim countries. OK agreed saying a generation is exaggeration, but surely enough kids will be brain washed to be the next generation of suicide bombers. And this cycle of violence and islamophobia will continue and get worse.

So, by your logic, you can't blame Palestinian kids for hating Jews, since their parents were expelled from their rightful home by the Israelis.

Yes i don't blame the Palestinian kids at all. Human beings get affected by incidents such as suicide bombings and the fear lingers in their heart and brain for a while. Its a traumatic experience. If you guarantee me that there wont be any terrorist attacks for the next ten years, I can guarantee you that islamophobia will disappear.

Hogwash!
They had negative views of blacks, and there are far more black than Asians in the US.

Kids are kids, they learn what their parents teach them. Ever wondered why all the kids who participated in the show were whites? Why wasn't any minority or black kid included in the show?

When you are kid parents teach you and tell you things, and as i said they are post 9/11 kids so am not surprised at what their parents taught them.

I said Zionist, not Jewish. If you don't even know the difference, why are you wasting everyone's time?

To be honest I really don't know what Zionism is all about. I am a common man and I think like a common man, without speculating about things much grander, such as zionism and new world order and all that. Since I don't have any knowledge about it, I won't comment on it.

Doesn't matter; the principle still applies.

No it doesn't. There is never a mention of religion when a crime is being reported. Nationality yes, but religion never, I am yet to see in Australia anyways. Suicide bombing is more than a crime.

These words don't occur in isolation. Do you even know the root of the conflict?

Every year, for hundreds of years, observant Jews end their prayers with the words "next year in Jerusalem". What those words symbolize is the belief, reinforced in Jewish temples and religious teachings, that Jews, being God's Chosen People, are entitled to claim Palestine exclusively for a Jewish homeland because God promised that land to Abraham. That means, implicitly, that anyone else living on that land may be expelled. By whatever means necessary.

Talk about religious supremacy!

Don't have much knowledge about that so can't comment. Maybe some Israeli forumer can discuss this with you.

 

[Roybot]

Again, reasonable people will say you were an idiot; bigots would say Hindus were idiots.

Thats what I have been trying to say all along. If I keep repeating this protest of mine in Dhaka over and over again, and keep saying that all of you should convert to Hinduism otherwise you ll rot in hell, it surely will make make the reasonable mind think about the irony of "me being in their own country, and abusing them and their way of life". And then the bigots (who are a minority) don't need to do much to change that reasonable man into a "bigot". This is whats happening in my opinion and this is why you see the increasing islamophobia in the western society. Thanks to the suicide bombers and terrorists the very multiculturalism that brought them to the western countries, gave them a good life and a level playing ground, is being branded a failed ideology.

Why should I ask anything of a criminal or idiot?

You seem to see everything through a prism of religion.

I only see a bunch of idiots; you see a bunch of Muslims. When I see people holding anti-abortion placards with Bible verses, I see anti-abortion/pro-life activists; you would see a bunch of Christians.

See its not about how me or you or any other individual look at things. Its about how a community and country look at things.

 

[madooxno9]

i can only say lolzzz these kind of maarsaas are everywhere ....even in India... they do teach ... radical things... but most of the time ...the reason is just to make sure that culture prevails for longer time... and people do not forget the roots....

but on the other hand ... we should not let any one force any religion or lifestyle onto anyone... all everyone wants is to live in peace and harmony not in hate and crime... what i think is that the more radical people will get the more radical other non - muslims (kaffir) wil get... its just a simple maths

every equation has to be balanced and that is what i am saying ... that people will not let muslims live happily if more radiological thinking goes on....

 

[Developereo]

See you should look at the bigger picture. We are talking about such madarsas in western countries. Think about the ones that are operating in Pakistan and other Muslim countries. OK agreed saying a generation is exaggeration, but surely enough kids will be brain washed to be the next generation of suicide bombers. And this cycle of violence and islamophobia will continue and get worse.

Yes i don't blame the Palestinian kids at all. Human beings get affected by incidents such as suicide bombings and the fear lingers in their heart and brain for a while. Its a traumatic experience. If you guarantee me that their wont be any terrorist attacks for the next ten years, I can guarantee you that islamophobia will disappear.

Kids are kids, they learn what their parents teach them. Ever wondered why all the kids who participated in the show were whites? Why wasn't any minority or black kid included in the show?

When you are kid parents teach you and tell you things, and as i said they are post 9/11 kids so am not surprised at what their parents taught them.

You are begging the question here. You are saying Islamophobia is justified because of the suicide bombings and violence. The people doing the violence claim their actions are justified because of Islamophobia and oppression of Muslims.

Quite frankly, looking at history, their claim is more legitimate than yours. Not that it justifies violence, but bigotry between religions has been around throughout history. All religions are guilty of it and have been targets of it.

There is never a mention of religion when a crime is being reported. Nationality yes, but religion never, I am yet to see in Australia anyways.

Then you haven't lived here long enough. Religion is surely mentioned when a Muslim is in the news for the wrong reason.

See its not about how me or you or any other individual look at things. Its about how a community and country look at things.

People's perceptions and beliefs are shaped by the media. If the media portrays the protestors as a lunatic fringe, people will see them that way. If they are portrayed as representatives of the mainstream, that's how people will see them.

what i think is that the more radical people will get the more radical other non - muslims (kaffir) wil get... its just a simple maths

You are doing the standard apologetic copout that Hindu fundamentalism is only a response to Islamic fundamentalism. Given the history of the subcontinent we know the truth is a lot more complex than this simplistic view.

 

[Black Widow]

as per reporter, there are 2000 such schools in UK,... OMG what are they teaching to this Kids???

Its pathetic.... If such things are taught in UK, who knows what they will be teaching in poor countries ...

 

[KS]

Ultimately we can keep arguing whether or not Islamophobia is justified or not.

For Muslims it is not justified at all costs even if the fault on their side sometimes and for the Europeans it is but a natural reaction to the ghettoisation of the immigrant Muslims in their countries and their inability to get integrated into the mainstream relative to other religions.

But one thing - These things will continue till 'freedom fighters'(whether they are brainwashed idiots or not is not the matter) die in the name of Allah killing civilians , the Ummah concept (aka meddling in other countries business because if the supposed Muslim brotherhood) and being utterly intolerant to criticism is there. Add to this the historical baggage of the Crusades.

 

[ajtr]

Ultimately we can keep arguing whether or not Islamophobia is justified or not.

For Muslims it is not justified at all costs even if the fault on their side sometimes and for the Europeans it is but a natural reaction to the ghettoisation of the immigrant Muslims in their countries and their inability to get integrated into the mainstream relative to other religions.

But one thing - These things will continue till 'freedom fighters'(whether they are brainwashed idiots or not is not the matter) die in the name of Allah killing civilians , the Ummah concept (aka meddling in other countries business because if the supposed Muslim brotherhood) and being utterly intolerant to criticism is there. Add to this the historical baggage of the Crusades.

After all seeds were sowed in the past so the proverb goes right ...as u sow so shall u reap".isnt it.

West for the past 70 years after the war sowed the winds then they sure have to reap the whirlwind.

 

[Roybot]

You are begging the question here. You are saying Islamophobia is justified because of the suicide bombings and violence. The people doing the violence claim their actions are justified because of Islamophobia and oppression of Muslims.

Am not saying its justified, but its more of a consequence of radical Islam, and i can see where the Islamophobes are coming from.

Quite frankly, looking at history, their claim is more legitimate than yours. Not that it justifies violence, but bigotry between religions has been around throughout history. All religions are guilty of it and have been targets of it.

Part of the reason for keeping the history is to make sure we don't make the same mistakes in the future. Just cause some bigotry took place ages ago, doesn't mean we continue doing it. This circle will never end then.

Then you haven't lived here long enough. Religion is surely mentioned when a Muslim is in the news for the wrong reason.

Is 17 years long enough? I would like to see a news article about a crime where the religion of the perpetrator is specifically mentioned.

People's perceptions and beliefs are shaped by the media. If the media portrays the protestors as a lunatic fringe, people will see them that way. If they are portrayed as representatives of the mainstream, that's how people will see them.

Yes to a certain extent and only certain people's. The people whose perception and beliefs are gullible enough to be shaped by the media are prime candidates for islamophobia. At the end of the day its upto the individuals as to what they want to watch on the tele. Here in Australia if there is islamophobic channels like 7 and 9, then to counter that there is ABC and SBS who most definitely also show the positive side of Islam and Muslims.

 

[Developereo]

Am not saying its justified, but its more of a consequence of radical Islam, and i can see where the Islamophobes are coming from.
Part of the reason for keeping the history is to make sure we don't make the same mistakes in the future. Just cause some bigotry took place ages ago, doesn't mean we continue doing it. This circle will never end then.

We are talking about mid to late 20th century events and still ongoing conflicts. The Western narrative is that when organized armies (Israeli, Western, Russian, Thai, Indian) commit atrocities against Muslim civilians, that is justified or "collateral damage", but when these people fight back, they are terrorists.

Is 17 years long enough? I would like to see a news article about a crime where the religion of the perpetrator is specifically mentioned.

Michele Leslie; the Sydney rapes; the retaliation for Cronulla riots; etc. etc.
These are just off the top of my head...

Yes to a certain extent and only certain people's. The people whose perception and beliefs are gullible enough to be shaped by the media are prime candidates for islamophobia. At the end of the day its upto the individuals as to what they want to watch on the tele. Here in Australia if there is islamophobic channels like 7 and 9, then to counter that there is ABC and SBS who most definitely also show the positive side of Islam and Muslims.

Until very recently (Yalda Hakim) SBS did not have a single news anchor or journalist who was Muslim. They have had Indian, Chinese, Maltese, Croatian, Greek, etc. newscasters for several years, but no Muslim until now.

Even now SBS world news is actually more anti-Islam when it comes to Christian matters; SBS is infested with Eastern European Christian fanatics who always play up any conflict between Muslims and Christians.

I will grant you that programs like Insight and Dateline try to be more balanced.

 

[Developereo]

there is no theory but commonsense. when it happens around the world regardless of country, political,geographical ethnical boundary we come to know that it's islam which got something wrong in it. A fish won't live if there is no water. so stop providing water (favourable condition ) to terrorism in islamic society. to cut that favourable conditionfavourable you need to.
1) stop defending, denying, sympathising act of terrorism and terrorists.
2)keep religion personal don't bring it to public life and politics.
3)tolerate criticism and reformist movements instead of saying it's all perfect noting can be changed.it is in the land of religious extremism/ narrow mindedness where the seeds of terrorism grow.
4) people who lead islam should do this reform. to lead the reform they need to think modern and intract with young people. so the leaders/ scholars must have modern education and out look.
5) instead living as separate group/ community muslims should be mingle with others and be more flexible.
6)govt's must not use/ support terror org for short term goals.
7)allow inter cast/ religious marriage and let people practice their own different beliefs in the same roof.this will lead to understand each others religion.when more and more such family's come it will sure make a positive change in society.

and

Ultimately we can keep arguing whether or not Islamophobia is justified or not.

For Muslims it is not justified at all costs even if the fault on their side sometimes and for the Europeans it is but a natural reaction to the ghettoisation of the immigrant Muslims in their countries and their inability to get integrated into the mainstream relative to other religions.

But one thing - These things will continue till 'freedom fighters'(whether they are brainwashed idiots or not is not the matter) die in the name of Allah killing civilians , the Ummah concept (aka meddling in other countries business because if the supposed Muslim brotherhood) and being utterly intolerant to criticism is there. Add to this the historical baggage of the Crusades.

Both of you are making similar points so let me address them together.

The main thing to keep in mind is that there is no such thing as monolithic Islam. Some of your points are valid about the Wahhabi interpretation of Islam, but not the more moderate, mainstream versions, including the Sufi version.

The other thing to acknowledge is that the integration canard is a recent furphy thrown up by the bigots. Various groups integrate to varying degrees and, as long as people obey the law and don't do harm, nobody minds. Also, lack of integration is a two-way street. There have been studies by the BBC in Britain and France which show clear job discrimination against resumes with Muslim/Arabic names. High profile demagoguery by the media and politicians against Muslims also doesn't help integration.

As far as terrorism goes, it won't go away until the root causes go away. And those causes have nothing to do with integration. They are far away in the Middle East and elsewhere. As long as Western/Israeli armies continue to kill Muslims, there will be resentment and retaliation.

 

[Roybot]

We are talking about mid to late 20th century events and still ongoing conflicts. The Western narrative is that when organized armies (Israeli, Western, Russian, Thai, Indian) commit atrocities against Muslim civilians, that is justified or "collateral damage", but when these people fight back, they are terrorists.

Wars and conflicts are a different issue altogether. You should have included the Pakistani Armies efforts in Baluchistan and NWFP too. When Saddam invaded Kuwait weren't there any civilian casualties, what about Iran-Iraq war? Just cause Muslims civilians get killed by Muslim countries it somehow makes it ok? Killing of civilians during war is inevitable and unfortunate. Anyways this is way off topic and a very complicated issue, I would rather not talk about it anymore.

Michele Leslie; the Sydney rapes; the retaliation for Cronulla riots; etc. etc.
These are just off the top of my head...

Micelle Leslie conversion issue was publicity gimmick if anything. As far as the sydney rape case isconcerned, you should know why the "muslim" tag was used. It was the Skaf brothers who said rather unpleasant and racist stuff during the course of the rapes which got published in the media, so once again I understand why there was a backlash. Cronulla riots were just that, riots. Both sides were condemned by the media and the government as far as i recall.

Until very recently (Yalda Hakim) SBS did not have a single news anchor or journalist who was Muslim. They have had Indian, Chinese, Maltese, Croatian, Greek, etc. newscasters for several years, but no Muslim until now.

Even now SBS world news is actually more anti-Islam when it comes to Christian matters; SBS is infested with Eastern European Christian fanatics who always play up any conflict between Muslims and Christians.

I will grant you that programs like Insight and Dateline try to be more balanced.

Maybe because there weren't any muslim anchor looking for job? And most of the muslim migrants to Australia are quite recent. You will see a demographic shift on the television in another 5-10 years.As far as muslim journalists are concerned I have come across a few muslim sounding names, I can look it up for you if you want.

 

[OldKool]

that very much explains why Pakistani refer Hindus as cow piss drinker.This is the source from where you guys have built up your excellent hatred vocabulary.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

and



Both of you are making similar points so let me address them together.

The main thing to keep in mind is that there is no such thing as monolithic Islam. Some of your points are valid about the Wahhabi interpretation of Islam, but not the more moderate, mainstream versions, including the Sufi version.

The other thing to acknowledge is that the integration canard is a recent furphy thrown up by the bigots. Various groups integrate to varying degrees and, as long as people obey the law and don't do harm, nobody minds. Also, lack of integration is a two-way street. There have been studies by the BBC in Britain and France which show clear job discrimination against resumes with Muslim/Arabic names. High profile demagoguery by the media and politicians against Muslims also doesn't help integration.

As far as terrorism goes, it won't go away until the root causes go away. And those causes have nothing to do with integration. They are far away in the Middle East and elsewhere. As long as Western/Israeli armies continue to kill Muslims, there will be resentment and retaliation.

the basic problem is muslims see american attack on iraq, afghan, israel palestine issue etc as attack on ISLAM rather than analysing the real reason behind each issue.when there is group which think and act 'like this as a group ' others will only be forced to judge or analyse their actions as 'religiously motivated.general public, institutions etc will normally try to stay away from such group.what public is making is reaction only.imo there is tendency among muslims to recognise and to be recognised as muslims first, they will look at armed forces or judiciary and will say - hey muslims are not represented enough, this tendency should stop. then public will also respond positively.
sorry if i crossed the line anywhere..