Lessons from Saudi Arabia

[Psychic]

So when I say that not every hadeeth is authentic and the non authentic ones need to be scrapped and scraped from the six deemed holy books .... how is it different?

Have you read the Sahih Bukhari? Do you know there exists a concept of Nasikh mansukh related to Quran's verses in hadeeth books, there exists a concept that says hadeeth would rein supreme?

You or I have no authority to scrap select ahadith from the books. Unless you have attained the status of a mujtahid based upon knowledge, logic and spirituality. You can argue with the scholars on scrapping the ahadith, not with me.

That's your biggest mistake ...... like our forefathers. They the Zoroastrians, practically avenged their defeat by creating a parallel religion, by keeping us away from pure simple message of Quran

Quran itself tells you to follow the Quran and the Sunnah.
Where does the Sunnah come from? From the Hadith, the Salaf, the Sahaba , the mothers of momins. If we have no hadith, no knowledge transferred down the generations except for Quran then you have people who say that head covering is not compulsory and is an innovation of misogynist mullahs.

Come on ........ common sense please.

Even common sense is subjective.
The Shafi's think that touching the wife breaks the wudu, your common sense is probably not the same as Imam Shafai's. Imam Abu Hanifa thinks otherwise.
Now Imama Shafai himself said that if I am not in accordance with Quran and Sunnah, throw my fatwa on the wall. Every Imam including Hanifa and Malik said similar things.

Okay so which namaz e janaza is correct? Sunni or Shiite or any other sect that does it bit differently like Ahle Hadeeth? Which one is correct?

Sunnis, Shias all follow a certain pattern based upon their understanding of hadith. Shias have their own hadith.
The pattern is more or less the same. If you take the hadith out then there will be total chaos and fitna with someone saying that she wont don the hijab and someone saying that he'll offer 4 rakats in maghrib. Even among sunnis and shias the alterations are not severe in most cases e.g sunnis acknowledge that it is permissible to combine zuhr and asr, maghrib and isha. If you think that only Quran will tell you everything then it won't as it itself states that follow Quran and Sunnah. Quran told you to pray, didn't tell you the number of rakats or the recitations and the exact method of praying. Muslims all over the world follow a similar method with differences like positioning of hands etc based upon the different hadith they follow, but the basic method remains the same. You take out the hadith and there will be every tom dick and harry inventing his own method of praying.

If these scholars knew Quran's Arabic they would have been the first ones to discover concept of gravity, aerial flights. They would have been the ones exploring universe and making scientific discoveries, they would have been the ones giving lectures on embryology ....... they only know what suits and strengthens their sect and its books.

That is slandering the people you have never met. That itself is a sin, do you realize that?
You speak about gravity and flights with the benefit of hindsight. Hindsight is 20/20. Those scholars caused the spread of Islam throught the world.

BTW, do you acknowledge the hadith about Arab beduins competing in building tall buildings?

Well tell me do you consider the taxation system of Pakistan just? Is it justified a person should pay multiple taxes and then pay Zakat separately? Zakat by most of us is considered a religious burden, because Molvi sahib failed to understand and participate in bettering the taxation system.

Unfortunately I won't be answering that. But I will give you a hint i.e zakat is only acceptable when the recipient is a Muslim. Now wheather or not there should be aditional taxes or not is a seperate story which I leave for the economists and muftis to decide.

 

[GumNaam]

Psychic,

@I.R.A Women scholars were included. And there are women scholars, but you like other feminists would say that these women scholars are brainwashed by their husbands so there's no point arguing with you.
Oh that's nice, @I.R.A looks like this good ol boy has a fatwa to make predictions about what we are going to say now!!!
And the thing like hijab etc existed ..in all abrahamic religions that is enough to prove that it's a commandment from Allah for women to cover their heads.
Go and see the video.

Yeah, what about the two who remain Muslims? Is something better than nothing?
And these kinds of videos are mostly like those ex-Muslim ones in which people don't know what they're talking about.
negative, most of these so called" ex muslims" have been exposed as hindus and dark skinned jews pretending to be " ex muslim"!

How many did your highness the non-jahil, non-mysoginist and non-extremist Islam lover convert? Your argument is a strawman's argument in any case
so The Quran calls your bluff; Hazrat Nooh AS after nearly1000 years of preaching only managed to get a handful of converts so small that they all fit of a simple wooden boat WITH room for animals! So how many converts did anyone" win" over never has been and never will a measure of piety! It does NOT count and frankly the fact this is even a scale of measure for indicates that Iam talking to a very illiterate ignoramus.


Shame on you actually, for implying that scholars call other sects as kafir. Even the majority of Shia-Sunni scholars despite huge differences do not do takfeer. Shame on you for implying that they do takfir, maybe the molvi in your mohalla does that but he's no scholar either.
Oh no, not that fast! We have seen the ruthless sectarian based bloodshed both at the local and international level! We've even seen every mufti and molvi claiming that it is their sect that will go to paradise while the rest of the sects will burn in hell! It's happened throughout our history! It was ONLY after the internet age when the nonmuslim world started laughing at your so called " scholars" did they tone down their sectarian rhetoric and started to call it " schools of thought" instead of sects; but they are still that white elephant in the room called SECTS!

A new sect in which hijab is not compulsory
Oh and how is posing the question to the masses to create a consensus and coming to a common ground and understanding based on The Quran and the sunnah considered as " creating a sect"??? Do enlighten us with your " wisdom", I REALLY wanna see this one play out ..

We moved on from that a long time ago. That hadith was narrated by Ayesha, directly or nor, there is a chain of narrators. I in any case abandoned my view on that as promised since there is a difference of opinion among scholars on that. I leave it to them, for now.
NOPE! NOT GOOD ENOUGH! You don't get coward out! SO PRESENT ATHASt THE EVIDENCE Ab PRESENTED BY THESE SO CALLED SCHOLARS YOU SO LOVE TO FOLLOW! And I want the NAMES of every single link in the chain ALONG with their backgrounds and WHY should they be considered as pious muslims and why were there no mistakes in their narrations! Come on now, let's hear it! No more chickening out!

You are using 21st century moral yardstick to judge something that happened in 7th century. Got it?
No I'm not! You should be smart enough to know that I have CONSISTENTLY maintained the importance of " MERIT AND EVIDENCE" ! Lakh di laanat bhaij to hoon may is supposed 21st century moral yardstick par! You" Got it"?!

 

[Psychic]

so The Quran calls your bluff; Hazrat Nooh AS after nearly1000 years of preaching only managed to get a handful of converts so small that they all fit of a simple wooden boat WITH room for animals! So how many converts did anyone" win" over never has been and never will a measure of piety! It does NOT count and frankly the fact this is even a scale of measure for indicates that Iam talking to a very illiterate ignoramus.

If a jahil as per you is able to convert today's people after reasoning with them, then so should be you.

Oh no, not that fast! We have seen the ruthless sectarian based bloodshed both at the local and international level! We've even seen every mufti and molvi claiming that it is their sect that will go to paradise while the rest of the sects will burn in hell! It's happened throughout our history! It was ONLY after the internet age when the nonmuslim world started laughing at your so called " scholars" did they tone down their sectarian rhetoric and started to call it " schools of thought" instead of sects; but they are still that white elephant in the room called SECTS!

Rants and nothing else. Clearly u don't know what a scholar is, according to you perhaps everyone with a beard and skullcap is a molvi and a scholar.

Oh and how is posing the question to the masses to create a consensus and coming to a common ground and understanding based on The Quran and the sunnah considered as " creating a sect"??? Do enlighten us with your " wisdom", I REALLY wanna see this one play out ..

Go and have a debate on that with scholars including Muslim women make a video on it and post it. I am not stopping you neither am I scared of you. Try to get an ijma, we'll see how successful you are. I'll love to see that. You go ahead and do that since you live in the "free superior society".

No I'm not! You should be smart enough to know that I have CONSISTENTLY maintained the importance of " MERIT AND EVIDENCE" ! Lakh di laanat bhaij to hoon may is supposed 21st century moral yardstick par! You" Got it"?!

Don't contradict yourself. You yourself stated how can you imagine a 9 year old having a nikkah. Now tell me if it ain't 21st century moral yardstick or if these things didn't happen a hundred and fifty years ago (even in the West). But you can't imagine these things happening.

NOPE! NOT GOOD ENOUGH! You don't get coward out! SO PRESENT ATHASt THE EVIDENCE Ab PRESENTED BY THESE SO CALLED SCHOLARS YOU SO LOVE TO FOLLOW! And I want the NAMES of every single link in the chain ALONG with their backgrounds and WHY should they be considered as pious muslims and why were there no mistakes in their narrations! Come on now, let's hear it! No more chickening out!

Google is your friend. I am not here to spoonfeed you.
You are not only arrogant but unwilling to accept any version that doesn't help you fit in the society (just like hijab). Regardless of anything , according to Islam one is allowed to marry if he/she reaches puberty.

 

[I.R.A]

You or I have no authority to scrap select ahadith from the books. Unless you have attained the status of a mujtahid based upon knowledge, logic and spirituality. You can argue with the scholars on scrapping the ahadith, not with me.

Bukhari selected two thousand something traditions out of 700,000 something traditions that he had gathered. Who authorised him? Abu Hanifa wouldn't rely on traditions. What you read and understand as Islam is work of Tabri & co.

Quran itself tells you to follow the Quran and the Sunnah.
Where does the Sunnah come from? From the Hadith, the Salaf, the Sahaba , the mothers of momins. If we have no hadith, no knowledge transferred down the generations except for Quran then you have people who say that head covering is not compulsory and is an innovation of misogynist mullahs.

Quran tells you that best Hadeeth is Quran itself. Sunnah is basically acts of Messenger Muhammad Peace be upon him as a leader and state head, obviously His orders were to be followed and his companions (May ALLAH be pleased with all of them) were to support and assist Him.

Even common sense is subjective.
The Shafi's think that touching the wife breaks the wudu, your common sense is probably not the same as Imam Shafai's. Imam Abu Hanifa thinks otherwise.
Now Imama Shafai himself said that if I am not in accordance with Quran and Sunnah, throw my fatwa on the wall. Every Imam including Hanifa and Malik said similar things.

Buddy its common sense, when you are thirsty and fasting and haven't eaten the whole day .... your human instincts would want you to satisfy your thirst and hunger ...... who would worry about kissing wife during that? And how much one has to sacrifice by not kissing his wife while he is fasting? Why is it a big deal to also refrain from physical contact for few hours ..... it is simple as that ....... why we need a Molvi sb tell us all this?

These same non sense issues have left us confused, misguided and stagnant over centuries. Our thoughts remain revolving around where should I touch and how should I kiss .........

Sunnis, Shias all follow a certain pattern based upon their understanding of hadith. Shias have their own hadith.
The pattern is more or less the same. If you take the hadith out then there will be total chaos and fitna with someone saying that she wont don the hijab and someone saying that he'll offer 4 rakats in maghrib. Even among sunnis and shias the alterations are not severe in most cases e.g sunnis acknowledge that it is permissible to combine zuhr and asr, maghrib and isha. If you think that only Quran will tell you everything then it won't as it itself states that follow Quran and Sunnah. Quran told you to pray, didn't tell you the number of rakats or the recitations and the exact method of praying. Muslims all over the world follow a similar method with differences like positioning of hands etc based upon the different hadith they follow, but the basic method remains the same. You take out the hadith and there will be every tom dick and harry inventing his own method of praying.

And with hadeeth you have this never ending sectarianism. Which happens to be against clear instructions of Quran.

That is slandering the people you have never met. That itself is a sin, do you realize that?
You speak about gravity and flights with the benefit of hindsight. Hindsight is 20/20. Those scholars caused the spread of Islam throught the world.

I don't consider a petty human like me authority over me ....... and I refuse to worship him. They may call it a sin, but its against the very freedom of common sense and thinking that ALLAH granted me.

BTW, do you acknowledge the hadith about Arab beduins competing in building tall buildings?

No ...... a Persian invented this lie. Why it has to be Arabs doing this for judgement day, why it doesn't have to be Persians or others?

Unfortunately I won't be answering that. But I will give you a hint i.e zakat is only acceptable when the recipient is a Muslim. Now wheather or not there should be aditional taxes or not is a seperate story which I leave for the economists and muftis to decide.

And the muftis to whom you left this issue are yet to decide ........ like how many more centuries it would take?

 

[GumNaam]

@Psychic,

You or I have no authority to scrap select ahadith from the books. Unless you have attained the status of a mujtahid based upon knowledge, logic and spirituality. You can argue with the scholars on scrapping the ahadith, not with me.
But The Quran does.

Quran itself tells you to follow the Quran and the Sunnah. Where doehe Sunnah come from? From the Hadith, the Salaf, the Sahaba , the mothers of momins. If we have no hadith, no knowledge transferred down the generations except for Quran then you have people who say that head covering is not compulsory and is an innovation of misogynist mullahs.
What you are alluding to are verses that command that tell us to " obey Allah and the messenger" ("aati' ullah wa aati' urrasool")... and your so called " scholars" have very crookedly and dishonestly tried to hijack these verse to equate ahadith with The Holy Quran. Now here's the REAL reason behind these Verses... the mushrik pagan arabs actually DID believe in Allah. TheQuran says that the mushriks do believe in Allah. The only problem was that they believed in all these " other" gods as well. And they would not believe inhe Holy Prophet pbuh either ... So these verses are NOT talking the books of ahadith, these verses are actually these mushriks that them believing in Allah but not The Quran brought by theholy messenger is not enough! They MUST believe i The Quran as well it they hope for success. THAT is the real reason behind the verses that tell you obey Allah and obey the Messenger. To obey the Messenger IS to obey The Quran! ahadith ka kaheen door door tak bhi ziker nahi hay!

 

[Psychic]

Bukhari selected two thousand something traditions out of 700,000 something traditions that he had gathered. Who authorised him? Abu Hanifa wouldn't rely on traditions. What you read and understand as Islam is work of Tabri & co.



Quran tells you that best Hadeeth is Quran itself. Sunnah is basically acts of Messenger Muhammad Peace be upon him as a leader and state head, obviously His orders were to be followed and his companions (May ALLAH be pleased with all of them) were to support and assist Him.



Buddy its common sense, when you are thirsty and fasting and haven't eaten the whole day .... your human instincts would want you to satisfy your thirst and hunger ...... who would worry about kissing wife during that? And how much one has to sacrifice by not kissing his wife while he is fasting? Why is it a big deal to also refrain from physical contact for few hours ..... it is simple as that ....... why we need a Molvi sb tell us all this?

These same non sense issues have left us confused, misguided and stagnant over centuries. Our thoughts remain revolving around where should I touch and how should I kiss .........




And with hadeeth you have this never ending sectarianism. Which happens to be against clear instructions of Quran.



I don't consider a petty human like me authority over me ....... and I refuse to worship him. They may call it a sin, but its against the very freedom of common sense and thinking that ALLAH granted me.



No ...... a Persian invented this lie. Why it has to be Arabs doing this for judgement day, why it doesn't have to be Persians or others?



And the muftis to whom you left this issue are yet to decide ........ like how many more centuries it would take?

@Psychic,

You or I have no authority to scrap select ahadith from the books. Unless you have attained the status of a mujtahid based upon knowledge, logic and spirituality. You can argue with the scholars on scrapping the ahadith, not with me.
But The Quran does.

Quran itself tells you to follow the Quran and the Sunnah. Where doehe Sunnah come from? From the Hadith, the Salaf, the Sahaba , the mothers of momins. If we have no hadith, no knowledge transferred down the generations except for Quran then you have people who say that head covering is not compulsory and is an innovation of misogynist mullahs.
What you are alluding to are verses that command that tell us to " obey Allah and the messenger" ("aati' ullah wa aati' urrasool")... and your so called " scholars" have very crookedly and dishonestly tried to hijack these verse to equate ahadith with The Holy Quran. Now here's the REAL reason behind these Verses... the mushrik pagan arabs actually DID believe in Allah. TheQuran says that the mushriks do believe in Allah. The only problem was that they believed in all these " other" gods as well. And they would not believe inhe Holy Prophet pbuh either ... So these verses are NOT talking the books of ahadith, these verses are actually these mushriks that them believing in Allah but not The Quran brought by theholy messenger is not enough! They MUST believe i The Quran as well it they hope for success. THAT is the real reason behind the verses that tell you obey Allah and obey the Messenger. To obey the Messenger IS to obey The Quran! ahadith ka kaheen door door tak bhi ziker nahi hay!

These arguments against the hadith don't last long in a scholarly debate. Almost the entirety of deen came to us through either Quran or hadith, hadith based on the acts of Prophet SAW as recorded by his companions and adopted by them.
Practice what you preach first i.e throw hadith at the wall and form your own religion based on Quran including the number of rakats, method of prayers, method of ghusul and janaza, take all of it from Quran only and then come back to me when you've practiced that for some time. Find the methods of prayers etc from wherever you can except for the salaf/hadith. You won't last long before you return to the same acts done by our babas of the past, most of which came from the salaf who copied acts of ProphetSAW which are recorded in the hadith. Look it up and invite scholars to a debate and try scrapping the hadith. I challenge you!

There are already many debates done into this Quran vs Hadith,why do you think that there's no one who challanged the ahadith before you? L

Bukhari selected two thousand something traditions out of 700,000 something traditions that he had gathered. Who authorised him? Abu Hanifa wouldn't rely on traditions. What you read and understand as Islam is work of Tabri & co.

That is where the contradiction is, where was Imam Abu Hanifa? Iraq? And you talk about Persian forgeries.
You are following one baba ji and implying that the other one had ulterior motives.

I don't consider a petty human like me authority over me ....... and I refuse to worship him. They may call it a sin, but its against the very freedom of common sense and thinking that ALLAH granted me.

You slandered them, slandering is a sin. You don't agree with them fine, it's your choice. Base your choice on a solid basis and convince others through Ijma , but if you are unable to do that then keep your choice to yourself.

 

[GumNaam]

@Psychic,
If a jahil as per you is able to convert today's people after reasoning with them, then so should be you.
uhm, so how exactly did you miss the part about those Same Converts going beck to kuffar because of the irrational mindset and thick headedness of your beloved scholars?

Rants and nothing else. Clearly u don't know what a scholar is, according to you perhaps everyone with a beard and skullcap is a molvi and a scholar.
Is that right? Isn't a molvi or mufti graduating from a madrassah tied to a sect considered as a scholar?

Go and have a debate on that with scholars including Muslim women make a video on it and post it. I am not stopping you neither am I scared of you. Try to get an ijma, we'll see how successful you are. I'll love to see that. You go ahead and do that since you live in the "free superior society".
Why would I do that here When we are few and far between here... Why not start in Pakistan or another Muslim country and present THAT as an example of what a true Ijmah looks like to the world through Pakistan? What are you afraid of?

Don't contradict yourself. You yourself stated how can you imagine a 9 year old having a nikkah. Now tell me if it ain't 21st century moral yardstick or if these things didn't happen a hundred and fifty years ago (even in the West). But you can't imagine these things happening.
You just went into panic mode. I never said that I can imagine nikah to a 9 year old, I said that I can imagine your molvi proposing to a 9 year old! That has NOTHING to do with a morality yardstick! WOULD YOU GIVE YOUR OWN DAUGHTER TO A NIKAH AT THE AGE OF 6? WOULD YOUR MOLVIS DO THE SAME WITH THEIR OWN DAUGHTERS??? chanda beta, bagblain baja kay wah molvi saheb wa buckna bohat asaan hay magar kar kay dikha na bohat muskill

Google is your friend. I am not here to spoonfeed you.
You are not only arrogant but unwilling to accept any version that doesn't help you fit in the society (just like hijab). Regardless of anything , according to Islam one is allowed to marry if he/she reaches puberty.
And in your world all the young girls will reach puberty at 9 all except your own daughters who won't reach puberty until she is 30 with a masters degree and career! hipocrisy, thy name is @Psychic!!!

 

[Psychic]

@Psychic,
If a jahil as per you is able to convert today's people after reasoning with them, then so should be you.
uhm, so how exactly did you miss the part about those Same Converts going beck to kuffar because of the irrational mindset and thick headedness of your beloved scholars?

Rants and nothing else. Clearly u don't know what a scholar is, according to you perhaps everyone with a beard and skullcap is a molvi and a scholar.
Is that right? Isn't a molvi or mufti graduating from a madrassah tied to a sect considered as a scholar?

Go and have a debate on that with scholars including Muslim women make a video on it and post it. I am not stopping you neither am I scared of you. Try to get an ijma, we'll see how successful you are. I'll love to see that. You go ahead and do that since you live in the "free superior society".
Why would I do that here When we are few and far between here... Why not start in Pakistan or another Muslim country and present THAT as an example of what a true Ijmah looks like to the world through Pakistan? What are you afraid of?

Don't contradict yourself. You yourself stated how can you imagine a 9 year old having a nikkah. Now tell me if it ain't 21st century moral yardstick or if these things didn't happen a hundred and fifty years ago (even in the West). But you can't imagine these things happening.
You just went into panic mode. I never said that I can imagine nikah to a 9 year old, I said that I can imagine your molvi proposing to a 9 year old! That has NOTHING to do with a morality yardstick! WOULD YOU GIVE YOUR OWN DAUGHTER TO A NIKAH AT THE AGE OF 6? WOULD YOUR MOLVIS DO THE SAME WITH THEIR OWN DAUGHTERS??? chanda beta, bagblain baja kay wah molvi saheb wa buckna bohat asaan hay magar kar kay dikha na bohat muskill

Google is your friend. I am not here to spoonfeed you.
You are not only arrogant but unwilling to accept any version that doesn't help you fit in the society (just like hijab). Regardless of anything , according to Islam one is allowed to marry if he/she reaches puberty.
And in your world all the young girls will reach puberty at 9 all except your own daughters who won't reach puberty until she is 30 with a masters degree and career! hipocrisy, thy name@Psychic!!!

It is quite evident who's in panic mode. One has to just read the desperation in your post.
I most probably won't practice polygyny but will I hide the fact that it is permissible in Islam just because I don't like it? Anyone with a sound mind can understand the essence of the term "relativity".

Why not start in Pakistan or another Muslim country and present THAT as an example of what a true Ijmah looks like to the world through Pakistan? What are you afraid of?

If I remember correctly, I do not have a problem with any of the current Islamic rulings, so why should I be starting an Ijma in Pakistan?

uhm, so how exactly did you miss the part about those Same Converts going beck to kuffar because of the irrational mindset and thick headedness of your beloved scholars?

You conveniently forget about the ones who stay Muslim.

Is that right? Isn't a molvi or mufti graduating from a madrassah tied to a sect considered as a scholar?

Imam Abu Hanifa was not a madrassa graduate, in fact he was a rich businessman by profession.
You don't have to have a degree or a certificate but knowledge in order to have a fruitful debate with a scholar instead of making yourself look like a fool when you debate him.

And in your world all the young girls will reach puberty at 9 all except your own daughters who won't reach puberty until she is 30 with a masters degree and career! hipocrisy, thy name@Psychic!!!

Call it whatever you want. I won't be probably practicing many things which are allowed in Islam like talaq, polygyny, marrying an old woman thrice my age, marrying a black African, keeping slaves, adopting a child and so on. But I dont use my own tastes to get the better of me and let my own preferences to cloud my rationality and lose objectivity and declare these things as haram. Same thing with child marriages, they are allowed in almost every religion when the child reaches puberty. Me liking it for my child or disliking it is a matter of personal choice, doesn't mean that it doesn't happen(even in the US) or that it didn't use to happen in the past.
Again you are using your moral yardstick to judge others, you do that, I don't. I probably wouldn't like my child to study D-pharmacy, but does that mean if I think someone else likes it for his child according to his culture and background I have to criticize him for that else I am a hypocrite, then you need to look under your own hood I guess. The problem is your arrogant attitude.

Again a reminder @Nilgiri @Desert Fox
21st century lala land??? I'm living in the current century but BOY what century are YOU living in???
You are using 21st century moral yardstick to judge something that happened in 7th century. Got it?

 

[GumNaam]

These arguments against the hadith don't last long in a scholarly debate. Almost the entirety of deen came to us through either Quran or hadith, hadith based on the acts of Prophet SAW as recorded by his companions and adopted by them.
Practice what you preach first i.e throw hadith at the wall and form your own religion based on Quran including the number of rakats, method of prayers, method of ghusul and janaza, take all of it from Quran only and then come back to me when you've practiced that for some time. Find the methods of prayers etc from wherever you can except for the salaf/hadith. You won't last long before you return to the same acts done by our babas of the past, most of which came from the salaf who copied acts of ProphetSAW which are recorded in the hadith. Look it up and invite scholars to a debate and try scrapping the hadith. I challenge you!

There are already many debates done into this Quran vs Hadith,why do you think that there's no one who challanged the ahadith before you? L

That is where the contradiction is, where was Imam Abu Hanifa? Iraq? And you talk about Persian forgeries.
You are following one baba ji and implying that the other one had ulterior motives.

You slandered them, slandering is a sin. You don't agree with them fine, it's your choice. Base your choice on a solid basis and convince others through Ijma , but if you are unable to do that then keep your choice to yourself.

incorrect and very intellectually dishonest of you. There are authenti ahadith but a ton of fake ahedith as well in these very sahih books! for example, sahih bukhari says The Quran had verses on rajm that a GOAT ate So those verses are no longer there in The Quran. The same sahih bukhari says that surah falaq and surah naas are not from The Quran! Good luck finding the right deen by blindly following ahadith!

And mind you, I have seen your beloved hadith scholars have their behinds handed to them by nonmuslim athiest and christian scholars! The only and ONLY force that I have seen straight up CRUSH the athiest and christian scholars is The Quran! dr. zakir naik primarily sticks with The Quran and does not bring many ahadith and nor did sheikh Ahmed Deedat!

 

[I.R.A]

There are already many debates done into this Quran vs Hadith,why do you think that there's no one who challanged the ahadith before you? L

Seriously ......... the people who argued and provided reasonable evidence, were labelled infidels. Your assumption that we are trying to negate every tradition is false ...... the argument remains when are we going to revisit traditions in light of Quran ...... not traditions only but the whole Islamic history full of lies, fairy tales and distortions...... when?

That is where the contradiction is, where was Imam Abu Hanifa? Iraq? And you talk about Persian forgeries.
You are following one baba ji and implying that the other one had ulterior motives.

I am not following any baba gi ........ the current day baba giz could not define Muslim, couldn't agree with others' definition ..... and the max they contributed, built their own mosques, left youth confused and astray.

You slandered them, slandering is a sin. You don't agree with them fine, it's your choice. Base your choice on a solid basis and convince others through Ijma , but if you are unable to do that then keep your choice to yourself.

Where did I slander? Aren't they following their own sects? Don't they have their own mosques and medressas?

 

[Psychic]

dr. zakir naik primarily sticks with The Quran and does not bring many ahadith and nor did sheikh Ahmed Deedat!

They Do.
Infact Dr Zakir said that the method of hanafi prayers(tying hands below belly button) is incorrect according to sahih hadith. Yeah that's just one example of what he said, I can give many more. Plz don't spread lies.

 

[I.R.A]

They Do.
Infact Dr Zakir said that the method of hanafi prayers(tying hands below belly button) is incorrect according to sahih hadith. Yeah that's just one example of what he said, I can give many more. Plz don't spread lies.

Okay I think I will have to argue by bringing in traditions to make you understand my point correctly e.g.

"Volume 1, Book 6, Number 294 :
Narrated by 'Aisha
While in menses, I used to comb the hair of Allah's Apostle."

Is this saying of Messenger Peace be upon him? ........ No it is not

Tell me how would a molvi sb. react if one of his wives wrote something like this, discussing her personal affairs and made it public? I won't tolerate this nor I would permit this ...... but for people and molvi Sahiban all this looks okay if narrated by Hazrat Ayesha (May ALLAH be pleased with her) ....... koi khauf e KHUDA nai hay in logo ko? don't they see how subliminally a great personality has been insulted?

 

[Zibago]

Okay I think I will have to argue by bringing in traditions to make you understand my point correctly e.g.

"Volume 1, Book 6, Number 294 :
Narrated by 'Aisha
While in menses, I used to comb the hair of Allah's Apostle."

Is this saying of Messenger Peace be upon him? ........ No it is not

Tell me how would a molvi sb. react if one of his wives wrote something like this, discussing her personal affairs and made it public? I won't tolerate this nor I would permit this ...... but for people and molvi Sahiban all this looks okay if narrated by Hazrat Ayesha (May ALLAH be pleased with her) ....... koi khauf e KHUDA nai hay in logo ko? don't they see how subliminally a great personality has been insulted?

Mein ny to kaha tha agar theocracy ki taraf jao gay to adhi awam kafir aur baki mushrik ho jaye gi Saudia ko bhi samajh a gayi hamein pata nahi kab aye gi

 

[GumNaam]

@Psychic,
It is quite evident who's in panic mode. One has to just read the desperation in youst.
I most probably won't practice polygyny but will I hide the fact that it is permissible in Islam just because I don't like it? Anyone with a sound mind can understand the essence of the term "relativity".

Oh no no no you do not get to run away! show when I said that I can imagine to A 9 year old! SHOW IT!

If I remember correctly, I do not have a problem with any of the current Islamic rulings, so why should I be starting an Ijma in Pakistan?
If I remember correctly Pakistan has220 million more people besides you and Im sure most don't see things through your eyes, especially the women!

You conveniently forget about the ones who stay Muslim.
No more dodging; the ones who do remain as muslims is because of the Beauty of The Holy Quran. The Quran was what bulled them in the first place while the others who and up going back were pulled in by your scholars before they had chance to fully absorb The Quran! How conviniently you chose to forget The Quran ...

Imam Abu Hanifa was not a madrassa graduate, in fact he was a rich businessman by profession.
You don't have to have a degree or a certificate but knowledge in order to have a fruitful debate with a scholar instead of making yourself look like a fool when you debate him.
What hipocrisy! first you were crying bloody murder about credentials and qualification and here you are liher absolute baboon daiming that" Oh abu hanifah was a businessman and not k graduate"! ABAY SUNNI SECT so THAY! My criticism was of sects!

Call it whatever you want. I won't be probably practicing many things which are allowed in Islam like talaq, polygyny, marrying an old woman thrice my age, marrying a black African, keeping slaves, adopting a child and so on. But I dont use my own tastes to get the better of me and let my own preferences to cloud my rationality and lose objectivity and declare these things as haram. Same thing with child marriages, they are allowed in almost every religion when the child reaches puberty. Me liking it for my child or disliking it is a matter of personal choice, doesn't mean that it doesn't happen(even in the US) or that it didn't use to happen in the past.
OH I see, but if you see a 9 year old and get love stricken then you will try to Pursue marriage right? I rest my case!

Again you are using your moral yardstick to judge others, you do that, I don't. I probably wouldn't like my child to study D-pharmacy, but does that mean if I think someone else likes it for his child according to his culture and background I have to criticize him for that else I am a hypocrite, then you need to look under your own hood I guess. The problem is your arrogant attitude.
I'm not talking about your child's advection! Im talking about your child's MARRIAGE! No more dodging man, doesn't work with me! So just answer my question about your daughters' underage marriage, come on now, lets hear it!

Again a reminder @Nilgiri @Desert Fox
21st century lala land??? I'm living in the current century but BOY what century are YOU living in???
You are using 21st century moral yardstick to judge something that happened in 7th century. Got it?
Hmm, funny how you keep calling for back up but they are not responding! Whats even funnier is that one of them is a hindu ! SAD! (As said... PANIC MODE) !!!

They Do.
Infact Dr Zakir said that the method of hanafi prayers(tying hands below belly button) is incorrect according to sahih hadith. Yeah that's just one example of what he said, I can give many more. Plz don't spread lies.

Get glasses man! I said they use "many" ahadith, meaning yeah they use ahadith; just not many!

 

[araberuni7]

American Mia Khalifa is also a muslim.