Lessons from Saudi Arabia

[Psychic]

I clearly presented my evidence from The Quran while the Isis goons ahadith to prove their case Ones and that too, the ahadith that completely contradict The Quran

Go and take a hike....They use Quran to justify their actions as well.
Go and kill them where ever you find them. Without understanding the context, or reading the complete Surah.

Regarding Hijab you are making an invention or innovation in Islam because you don't know what it means.
And another advice, come out of your 21st century lala land.

 

[Zibago]

Why did they reject them then?

Actually what Anjem Ch and his kind of "ulema" wanted was what they did. These guys have blinders ON and can't see that how the minorities of Medina were treated by Prophet Muhammad SAW or how the Christians of Syria were treated by victorious Muslim armies, or how the jews who fled persecution in Europe were given refuge by the Muslims in Spain and elsewhere. They are Khawarij, the same types who created mischief among sahaba and murdered many of them, they're a fitna of modern times.

Because they were also a very arab group non arabs were second class jihadis

 

[Psychic]

You still don't understand the ground realities, do you? The issue is that these so called scholars of yours will NOT be given ANY level of authority OR power. They shall be treated as REGULAR human beings who are prone to erroring and as such, EVERY SINGLE THING THEY SAY SHALL BE AND WELL BE SCRUTINIZED IN THE LIGHT of THE QURAN AND PROPER WELL KNOWN AND VERIFIED AUTHENTIC SUNNAH! This is JUST how it is going to be... And keep blabbing on and on and on about scholars this and scholars that without realizing that THEY ARE ALL ACROSS THE BOARD ARE NOT "FIRMLY HOLDING ON TO THE ROPE OF ALLAH" since all of them across the board are broken apart into sects. The Quran has already exposed them as misguided people. Now that does NOT mean that everything they say is wrong... not by a longshot. But it DOES mean that they will NOT be given ANY level of authority OR position EXCEPT for that of a common man and EVERYTHING that they shall be constantly and repeatedly checked and rechecked. These muftis and molvis stand before us as convicts on account of being labelled as those who have fallen alpert into seets and a convict living in any society is CONSTANTLY kept a very close eye on ... but if you are fine with blindly following these sectarian scholars like sheep and cattle then good for you. Just remember, that sheep and cattle are ultimately ted to a SLAUGHTER HOUSE!

Yeah they are insects just like the one who preaches the message of Islam and has converted many people.

The Quran has already exposed them as misguided people

Yeah when it clearly orders women to cover up it is they who bring an excuse of not doing so.

Now that does NOT mean that everything they say is wrong... not by a longshot

Only when they appease you only then they're right otherwise, reject them!

but if you are fine with blindly following these sectarian scholars like sheep and cattle then good for you.

It's you who are blindly following someone who says that hijab isn't compulsory.

I am blindly following? I already accepted the version of Ibn Kathir and you accuse me of blindly following, have some shame and have some honor.
It's you who are blindly following things which appease you like the non-cumpulsion of hijab.

And keep blabbing on and on and on about scholars this and scholars that without realizing that THEY ARE ALL ACROSS THE BOARD ARE NOT "FIRMLY HOLDING ON TO THE ROPE OF ALLAH" since all of them across the board are broken apart into sects.

Really? And you are holding the rope of Allah by inventing a new sect in which hijab ain't compulsory? Go take a break.

 

[Zibago]

You rejected sahih hadith and claim to be a Muslim?
I said earlier that it's either 9 or 14 according to which tradition you follow.


I'd rather refrain from commenting. You chose him since he suited your narrative. Doesn't change the fact that marriage is allowed when one reaches puberty.

I give the benefit of doubt and accept what he says. Doesn't change the fact that there are Sahih hadith which prove otherwise(contradicting hadith). Neither u are an authority nor am I.Despite the availibilty of contradictory ahadith I accept that Ayesha's age might 've been not 9.


Now since you are so fond of Ibn Kathir, let's see whether you accept this or not;
Here Allah tells His Messenger to command the believing women -- especially his wives and daughters, because of their position of honor -- to draw their Jilbabs over their bodies, so that they will be distinct in their appearance from the women of the Jahiliyyah and from slave women. The Jilbab is a Rida', worn over the Khimar. This was the view of Ibn Mas`ud, `Ubaydah, Qatadah, Al-Hasan Al-Basri, Sa`id bin Jubayr, Ibrahim An-Nakha`i, `Ata' Al-Khurasani and others. It is like the Izar used today. Al-Jawhari said: "The Jilbab is the outer wrapper. `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said that Allah commanded the believing women, when they went out of their houses for some need, to cover their faces from above their heads with the Jilbab, leaving only one eye showing.
(and to draw their (Khumur) veils all over their Juyub) Khumur (veils) is the plural of Khimar, which means something that covers, and is what is used to cover the head. This is what is known among the people as a veil. Sa`id bin Jubayr said:

﴿وَلْيَضْرِبْنَ﴾

(and to draw) means to pull it around and tie it securely.

Comes from Ibn Kathir as well. Or is this not as per your taste? I believe in ijma of ummat or something from a scholar of repute, I accepted his version. Do you accept when it doesn't suit you? @Jf Thunder

Is allowed and should be legal are two seperate things its illegal to marry someone younger than 16 in some provinces and 18 in Sindh a.d that is the right way to plus with rising age of marriage (21)we know where our society is headed

 

[I.R.A]

@Psychic there is a reason why every person who gathered six books of narrations / traditions ..... is a Persian.

If you give it a thorough study ...... may be you would come to the same conclusion that lot of traditions were created and invented to malign not only companions of Messenger, but Messenger himself and his family. How can someone simply rely on something that has no written source but all verbal narrations, that too over a period of centuries? These traditions have been created and invented to strengthen King-ships ..... Age of Ayesha is one of those fairy tales which these enemies of Islam invented.

 

[Psychic]

@Psychic there is a reason why every person who gathered six books of narrations / traditions ..... is a Persian.

If you give it a thorough study ...... may be you would come to the same conclusion that lot of traditions were created and invented to malign not only companions of Messenger, but Messenger himself and his family. How can someone simply rely on something that has no written source but all verbal narrations, that too over a period of centuries? These traditions have been created and invented to strengthen King-ships ..... Age of Ayesha is one of those fairy tales which these enemies of Islam invented.

OK it may be a fairy tale, I already said that certain scholars think it is so I am not talking about it anymore.

The deen as we follow , namaz, ablution, fasting, janaza, dua, zakat, most of it comes from hadith. Quran tells you to pray, if you reject hadith then you would be left ignorant on how to pray. Then you will have to rely on the same traditions which u consider persian forgeries. The whole deen will start to crumble. There's a reason why it is mentioned that we are to follow both Quran and Sunnah. And no, you don't reject a scholar, it's like you say I have a book on anatomy in my home, hence I don't need to go to the doctor I can heal myself.

 

[Zibago]

It used to be 10(legally) up until the 1880s. In Scotland, it was 12 up until 1929.
Marry married Joeseph(90) when she was 11 (Catholic belief), Isac married Rebecca when she was 3 or 10. The modern day Christians who accuse Muhammad SAW are sitting in a glass house themselves without knowing it.

Regarding age of Ayesha, I already humbled and admitted that since there are different opinions on that, I would refrain from commenting any further and I respect what Ibn Kathir said as well, I do not discredit him (of which I was accused of doing). But when these guys go overboard and forget what the same Mufti said about hijab which was to cover not only the head but all of the face as well except for one eye, these guys then say that we don't follow Muftis, they follow em when it floats their boat.

It used to 10 in scotland and people used to just fling shit out the window and into streams in the good ol days of dragons and leprichons thats why plagues were so frequent you dont look at the troubled past when infant mortality was sky high to justify what you desire
A baby at that age raises alarm bells for both mother and child

 

[Psychic]

Is allowed and should be legal are two seperate things its illegal to marry someone younger than 16 in some provinces and 18 in Sindh a.d that is the right way to plus with rising age of marriage (21)we know where our society is headed

Yes , I am not saying that we should be doing that of course there's a law of land to be followed and the societal changes that take place. But a hundred years ago these things were normal , even in the West.

It used to 10 in scotland and people used to just fling shit out the window and into streams in the good ol days of dragons and leprichons thats why plagues were so frequent you dont look at the troubled past when infant mortality was sky high to justify what you desire
A baby at that age raises alarm bells for both mother and child

Actually it's 14 in the US today. I am not saying that it should be encouraged though I am just saying that it is allowed just like polygyny or talaq.

@Psychic there is a reason why every person who gathered six books of narrations / traditions ..... is a Persian.

If you give it a thorough study ...... may be you would come to the same conclusion that lot of traditions were created and invented to malign not only companions of Messenger, but Messenger himself and his family. How can someone simply rely on something that has no written source but all verbal narrations, that too over a period of centuries? These traditions have been created and invented to strengthen King-ships ..... Age of Ayesha is one of those fairy tales which these enemies of Islam invented.

There are hadith which are narrated multiple times with different sources and narrators. The way of the sahaba was also preserved and passed to the future as the Sunnah. Quran and Sunnah both are important, Quran gives the guidelines, sunnah teaches you how to implement those guidelines. The method of ghussul for instance itself comes from hadith, so no, if you throw them on the wall , then you will not know how to do anything.

@Psychic there is a reason why every person who gathered six books of narrations / traditions ..... is a Persian.

If you give it a thorough study ...... may be you would come to the same conclusion that lot of traditions were created and invented to malign not only companions of Messenger, but Messenger himself and his family. How can someone simply rely on something that has no written source but all verbal narrations, that too over a period of centuries? These traditions have been created and invented to strengthen King-ships ..... Age of Ayesha is one of those fairy tales which these enemies of Islam invented.

Now you have a person who says that head covering for women is not compulsory(despite a clear verse which he claims is vague), and I remember Azlan.Haider claimed once on pdf that alcohol is allowed. Watch the reaction video on hijab ain't compulsory which I posted earlier. These people are going all over the place.

 

[Zibago]

Yes , I am not saying that we should be doing that of course there's a law of land to be followed and the societal changes that take place. But a hundred years ago these things were normal , even in the West.


Actually it's 14 in the US today. I am not saying that it should be encouraged though I am just saying that it is allowed just like polygyny or talaq.

Yeah west changed that for the betterment of their people so should we

The entire world has raised the age for a reason
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ly-get-married-around-the-world-10415517.html

 

[GumNaam]

@Psychic,
Go and take a hike....They use Quran to justify their actions as well.
Go and kill them where ever you find them. Without understanding the context, or reading the complete Surah.
Yyyyeah by the looks of things it does NOT look I'll be the one talking a hike! By the way, that would be why the fundo types don't \ike to stick to The Quran and would much rather in andate people with all forms of ahadith be they Authentic OR fake.. why? BECAUSE It IS VERY EASY TO FIGURE OUT THE CONTEXT OF THE QURAN AND THEY CAN BE PROVEN WRONG! The context of ahadith is not as easily clear which comes in VERY handy for misleading the masses!

Regarding Hijab you are making an invention or innovation in Islam because you don't know what it means.
Okay so tell you What; that is just my opinion which could be right or wrong, agreed. Let's do this; why not go out their and ask the people INCLUDING the sisters!? Instead of keeping the opinion limited to a handful of molvis that you can count on your fingers and misleadingly labelling that as " ijmah", Why not REALLY make it a TRUE ijmah and take it to both our brothers AND SISTERS in colleges, universities, hospitals, banks, businesses and homes and from sects and subsects within both sunnis and shias? Lets present all the evidence from The Quran and the sunnah and tats put it to a referendum. Its actually not hard to do. Wasn't that difficult centuries ago either but these days, it's a piece of cake! Just take a wild guess what will the masses say. I assure you, it will be a very picture compared to What these sectarian scholars have been saying!

And another advice, come out of your 21st century lala land.
1. You are FAR too young to give me advice on anything son.
2. 21st century lala land??? I'm living in the current century but BOY what century are YOU living in???

 

[I.R.A]

The deen as we follow , namaz, ablution, fasting, janaza, dua, zakat, most of it comes from hadith.

What we follow is religion, Deen was more simpler and pure. Anyhow your above quoted arguments is a very weak excuse that people keep presenting in defense / favor of traditions.

Namaz ....... its a ritual, an act a symbolic gesture of submission to ALLAH All Mighty. Quran has all that Qiyam, rukooh, sajda and timing mentioned. Anyhow Namaz is learnt by seeing others and not reading a traditions book only. Zoroastrians also have five times prayers.

Ablution ....... again an act, which is best learnt by seeing others and not reading books only .... there was no need to document it ...... Zoroastrians perform the same act of cleansing themselves before their five time prayers.

Fasting ........ Jews and Christians were ordered to fast too. Mentioned in Quran.

Janaza ....... its an act of mourning and grief, human expression of emotions. Otherwise no intercession is possible which is clearly mentioned in Quran.

Dua ........ Quran has multiple duain ..... so I don't know why we would need traditions for it, by the way for your information the way we do dua by raising our hands is similar to Zoroastrians.

Zakat ........ is Quran's order for taxation, which should have been implemented according to the changing times and not that 2.5% forever.

There's a reason why it is mentioned that we are to follow both Quran and Sunnah. And no, you don't reject a scholar, it's like you say I have a book on anatomy in my home, hence I don't need to go to the doctor I can heal myself.

Buddy doctors do a lot of studying and hand on training before calling themselves Surgeon and doctors. The scholars you are referring to remain closed in quarters, lost in studying centuries old jurisprudence and events. The analogy is stupid. In today's world of science and technology the real scholars are the ones observing creation, universe ..........

There are hadith which are narrated multiple times with different sources and narrators. The way of the sahaba was also preserved and passed to the future as the Sunnah. Quran and Sunnah both are important, Quran gives the guidelines, sunnah teaches you how to implement those guidelines. The method of ghussul for instance itself comes from hadith, so no, if you throw them on the wall , then you will not know how to do anything.

Abu Bakar and Omar may ALLAH be pleased with both of them, both had set fire to written collections of Messenger's sayings. The argument is in today's time what we can do when we have two sources? Which one reins supreme? The request is Quran reins supreme and anything that contradicts Quran should be thrown out. The problem is Mazhab kay thekaydar don't want to do that.

Now you have a person who says that head covering for women is not compulsory(despite a clear verse which he claims is vague), and I remember Azlan.Haider claimed once on pdf that alcohol is allowed. Watch the reaction video on hijab ain't compulsory which I posted earlier. These people are going all over the place.

Common sense buddy. Do women spend a lot of time dressing their hair or not? Do hair count for woman's beauty or not? Do hair attract attention in a woman or not? A beautiful face with a bald head would be same as that same face with properly dressed hair?

 

[GumNaam]

@Psychic
0Yeah they are ins
ects just like the one who preaches the message of Islam and has converted many people.
Nice try but for every 10 converts they make, 8 go back to being nonmuslims when they see how illiterate and irrational these molv is really are. The two that remain as muslims remain so because they were inspired by The Holy Quran and NOT some molvi or mufti. You live in Pakistan and probably haven ' t traveled abroad much let alone the west. You get to see aVERY watered down version of these conversions that gives I sense of ignorant bliss. I've been living here most of my life and have seen those 80% turn back! Here is a glimpse of what I am talking about!

Oh but was it, unless Dr Jeffery Lang buts on an i mama and grows big scruffy beard like your muftis and mullahs, he doesn't mean anything, now does he?

Yeah when it clearly orders women to cover up it is they who bring an excuse of not doing so.
Oh but cover up WHAT? The CHEST and anything else that can be considered as vulgar! Its not rocket science!

Only when they appease you only then they're right otherwise, reject them!
Well, why not present the evidence of What they are preaching to the masses and let them decide based on merit?!?!

It's you who are blindly following someone who says that hijab isn't compulsory.
Again ... Lets present the question to the messes INCLUDING women and present all the evidences to them and let the masses decide! IJMAH... right?

I am blindly following? I already accepted the version of Ibn Kathir and you accuse me of blindly following, have some shame and have some honor.
It's you who are blindly following things which appease you like the non-cumpulsion of hijab.
Why do you have to choose a version of ibn ANYONE? Why can't you do your OWN research and think on your own?

Really? And you are holding the rope of Allah by inventing a new sect in which hijab ain't compulsory? Go take a break.
I am NOT and WILL NOT invent any sects! Shame on you for even implying that. sects happen when once starts calling the other as an open Kafir! I did not do that. All that I said that putting anything at the same level as The Quran is shirk which means that one should ALWAYS consider The Quran as superior and as the ultimate source of our law! By pointing out someone's mistakes does NOT amount to creating a "sect"! And it looks like you and your likes are the ones who need a break!


You still have NOT presented your evidence of your claim of a "directly from Aayesha RA" yet! I am gonna hold you to this. Present the evidences I listed out ...

 

[Psychic]

Namaz ....... its a ritual, an act a symbolic gesture of submission to ALLAH All Mighty. Quran has all that Qiyam, rukooh, sajda and timing mentioned. Anyhow Namaz is learnt by seeing others and not reading a traditions book only. Zoroastrians also have five times prayers.

Ablution ....... again an act, which is best learnt by seeing others and not reading books only .... there was no need to document it ...... Zoroastrians perform the same act of cleansing themselves before their five time prayers.

Fasting ........ Jews and Christians were ordered to fast too. Mentioned in Quran.

Janaza ....... its an act of mourning and grief, human expression of emotions. Otherwise no intercession is possible which is clearly mentioned in Quran.

Dua ........ Quran has multiple duain ..... so I don't know why we would need traditions for it, by the way for your information the way we do dua by raising our hands is similar to Zoroastrians.

Actually it's your argument which is weak. Now if somebody says he's going to offer 4 rakat in maghrib, invents a new deen and says that quran doesn't order us to offer three rakat in maghrib will you follow him? Allah himself gave us the guidance that follow the Quran and the Sunnah. How do you follow sunnah without hadith, again not saying that every hadith is authentic but if you are saying that throw the hadith on the wall and follow only the Quran then you won't be able to perform even the basic prayers properly. Quran gives the guidelines, the hadith which is based upon what the prophetSAW and shahaba did is the sunnah which teaches you in every minute detail.

again an act, which is best learnt by seeing others and not reading books only .... there was no need to document it ......

Zorastarians are irrelevant. And who saw Muhammad SAW and preserved the method of ablution? It's in the hadith and the Muslims all over the world follow more or less the same method with minor alterations.

Jews and Christians were ordered to fast too. Mentioned in Quran.

O.K, but in details?
Does touching wife or kissing her breaks the fast? Does tasting break the fast? There are many minor details which are explained in sunnah.

its an act of mourning and grief, human expression of emotions.

How is Namaz e Janaza offered? Is it mentioned in every detail? The four takbirs, the things and duas which are recited in janaza....maybe they are , I don't know but as far as I know even if they are mentioned there are many details for which one has to consult the Sunnah i.e Hadith.

Buddy doctors do a lot of studying and hand on training before calling themselves Surgeon and doctors. The scholars you are referring to remain closed in quarters, lost in studying centuries old jurisprudence and events. The analogy is stupid. In today's world of science and technology the real scholars are the ones observing creation, universe

It's not stupid. Scholars know arabic, know the context and spend their whole life studying theology. Now I am not asking for a degree or a certificate, but one has to have enough knowledge to be declared a scholar. Knowledge of all kinds, speciality in religion and history, not some ordinary joe like me or you. (unless you consider yourself an expert on all matters related to jurispurdence). I might have read a couple of Shakespare's plays but can I debate with a person with PhD in English literature?

It's you who are blindly following someone who says that hijab isn't compulsory.
Again ... Lets present the question to the messes INCLUDING women and present all the evidences to them and let the masses decide! IJMAH... right?

@I.R.A Women scholars were included. And there are women scholars, but you like other feminists would say that these women scholars are brainwashed by their husbands so there's no point arguing with you. And the thing like hijab etc existed in all abrahamic religions that is enough to prove that it's a commandment from Allah for women to cover their heads.
Go and see the video.

Nice try but for every 10 converts they make, 8 go back to being nonmuslims when they see how illiterate and irrational these molv is really are

Yeah, what about the two who remain Muslims? Is something better than nothing?
And these kinds of videos are mostly like those ex-Muslim ones in which people don't know what they're talking about.
How many did your highness the non-jahil, non-mysoginist and non-extremist Islam lover convert? Your argument is a strawman's argument in any case

I am NOT and WILL NOT invent any sects! Shame on you for even implying that. sects happen when once starts calling the other as an open Kafir! I did not do that.

Shame on you actually, for implying that scholars call other sects as kafir. Even the majority of Shia-Sunni scholars despite huge differences do not do takfeer. Shame on you for implying that they do takfir, maybe the molvi in your mohalla does that but he's no scholar either.

I am NOT and WILL NOT invent any sects!

A new sect in which hijab is not compulsory

You still have NOT presented your evidence of your claim of a "directly from Aayesha RA" yet! I am gonna hold you to this. Present the evidences I listed out ...

We moved on from that a long time ago. That hadith was narrated by Ayesha, directly or nor, there is a chain of narrators. I in any case abandoned my view on that as promised since there is a difference of opinion among scholars on that. I leave it to them, for now.

 

[I.R.A]

How do you follow sunnah without hadith, again not saying that every hadith is authentic but if you are saying that throw the hadith on the wall and follow only the Quran then you won't be able to perform even the basic prayers properly.

So when I say that not every hadeeth is authentic and the non authentic ones need to be scrapped and scraped from the six deemed holy books .... how is it different?

Have you read the Sahih Bukhari? Do you know there exists a concept of Nasikh mansukh related to Quran's verses in hadeeth books, there exists a concept that says hadeeth would rein supreme?

Zorastarians are irrelevant.

That's your biggest mistake ...... like our forefathers. They the Zoroastrians, practically avenged their defeat by creating a parallel religion, by keeping us away from pure simple message of Quran

Does touching wife or kissing her breaks the fast? Does tasting break the fast? There are many minor details which are explained in sunnah.

Come on ........ common sense please.

How is Namaz e Janaza offered? Is it mentioned in every detail? The four takbirs, the things and duas which are recited in janaza....maybe they are , I don't know but as far as I know even if they are mentioned there are many details for which one has to consult the Sunnah i.e Hadith.

Okay so which namaz e janaza is correct? Sunni or Shiite or any other sect that does it bit differently like Ahle Hadeeth? Which one is correct?

Scholars know arabic, know the context and spend their whole life studying theology. Now I am not asking for a degree or a certificate, but one has to have enough knowledge to be declared a scholar. Knowledge of all kinds, speciality in religion and history, not some ordinary joe like me or you.

If these scholars knew Quran's Arabic they would have been the first ones to discover concept of gravity, aerial flights. They would have been the ones exploring universe and making scientific discoveries, they would have been the ones giving lectures on embryology ....... they only know what suits and strengthens their sect and its books.

(unless you consider yourself an expert on all matters related to jurispurdence). I might have read a couple of Shakespare's plays but can I debate with a person with PhD in English literature?

Well tell me do you consider the taxation system of Pakistan just? Is it justified a person should pay multiple taxes and then pay Zakat separately? Zakat by most of us is considered a religious burden, because Molvi sahib failed to understand and participate in bettering the taxation system.

 

[Psychic]

21st century lala land??? I'm living in the current century but BOY what century are YOU living in???

You are using 21st century moral yardstick to judge something that happened in 7th century. Got it?