Lessons from Saudi Arabia

[Desert Fox]

I'm a faggot
@I.R.A @Jf Thunder @Desert Fox

Why you still tagging me for?

 

[GumNaam]

Why you still tagging me for?

Asked you a question molvi saheb...

I haven't read your views before ...... not your old id but previous username for this same Gumnam id.

No its always been gumnaam on this forum.

 

[Nilgiri]

@Desert Fox @I.R.A @Nilgiri @Hassan_Ishtiaq
I won't debate any further. I am going to make one last post.

The fact is that most of these Quran only guys(which is a recent phenomenon) when they debate with any scholar, they stand there like a fool who doesn't know what he's talking about. Some are unable to describe the method of their prayers and others invent their own method of prayers like 3 cumpulsory+4 optional based on their own "spiritual guidance". Most of the time they are innovating something while accusing others of forming sects. Quran doesn't explain everything but, contrary to their claims, it provides a guiding principle. The explaination to those principles lie elsewhere.

The fact is that if you throw the hadith in the bin, you won't be able to perform ablution to say 2 rakat on the prayer mat. Heck you won't even know how many rakats to offer. You won't be able to decide what to recite in your prayers because the Quran only tells you to establish salat. It doesn't tell you how to perform salat. Sunnat does tell you that. Our ancestors passed it on based on hadith to this generation(With minor differences like hands above navel or below when offering salat, again ProphetSAW prayed with all these methods).
Quran tells you to perform Hajj, it doesn't tell you how to do it, there is no mention of sai, ramal, rajam , tawaf, in the Quran. Without the hadith, how are you going to perform Hajj? Invent your own way(Like giving example of Zorastrian or Christain Hajj)? Sorry, but if you take the hadith out, then there will be no evidence that what came to us from our father and forefathers was the way of the ProphetSAW.
I can go on and on and on because the Quran itself states that follow the Quran and the Prophet. Quran gave the basic guidelines like perform salat perform hajj, ProphetSAW showed his ummat how to do it, Sahaba learned from him and transferred it to next generations.
The very same methods of the Prophet SAW which were imitated by the Sahaba, the methods of ablution, ghussal, salat, hajj, zakat were written by people like Bukhari in Hadith with evidence in the form of chain of narrators to back it up so that the methods might be preserved for the future generations till Qayamat and so that no innovator from the future might start raising objections on those methods. You call that a "persian forgery"? A Persian "dude" with an agenda? A misogynist with personal tastes who made those hadith up by himself? Brother, you might have rejected revelations from God himself when you say you reject these Persian forgeries and pure and simple Quran is enough.
In fact, the ProphetSAW had prophesized about a time when people will do such things. But you'll say the muhadith had made it up, anyway;

1- “Let me not find one of you reclining on his couch, when he hears something regarding me which I have commanded or forbidden and saying: We do not know. What we found in Allah’s Book we have followed.

2- “Soon there will be a time when a man will be reclining on his couch, narrating a hadeeth from me, and he will say, ‘Between us and you is the Book of Allaah: what it says is halaal, we take as halaal, and what it says is haraam, we take as haraam.’ But listen! Whatever the Messenger of Allaah forbids is like what Allaah forbids.”

3- “Would any of you think, reclining on his couch, that Allaah would only describe what is forbidden in the Qur’aan? I tell you, by Allaah, that I have warned and commanded and prohibited things that are as important as what is in the Qur’aan, if not more so.”
(Quran doesn't tell you whether a fox is halal or haram, how are you going to decide without hadith? subjective logic?)

If you are rejecting a mutawatir hadith then you are playing a dangerous game, as you might be rejecting a revelation from Allah. These things, methods and sayings were already being passed down to future generations in verbal form before Bukhari.

Now coming to the topic of fake hadith. Yes there are fake and weak hadith. But who are you to decide? What are your credentials? Did you ever read the Quran(not the translation)? Are you an expert on hadith which you are rejecting or did you study the hadith so as to paint all of them with the same brush and talk about scrapping them and "reverting" to the pure and simple message of Quran? Are you going to use your "logic" which is subjective in any case?
How did you come to the conclusion that the scholars didn't scrutinize the hadith? Is thats why they declared certain ahadith as dai'f and others as sahih because they had an agenda? Is thats why scholars declared that majority of hadith are weak(Not the ones we talk about which are Bukhari Muslim, or siha sitta)? Or because they had an agenda of sectarianism(your argument doesn't get any more ridiculous than that).

And no sir, you have got NO RIGHT TO INTERPRET THE QURAN. Only the ProphetSAW has the right to interpret the Quran not a Tom , dick , harry or a modern hippy Muslim. If the Quran is left open to interpretation and you throw the hadith in the bin then people will start marrying 4-year-olds because the Quran nowhere forbids you from doing so; the condition of puberty is in the hadith (which some people were talking about and talked about rejecting hadith at the same time).
The Quran gives you permission to beat your wife, are you gonna let that open to interpretation too? Don't use the argument of logic since logic is subjective. Beating might be interpreted as a light slap as well as a jaw-breaking punch. Do you want that chaos in the society where every joe interprets Quran by himself(like ISIS)? Only the hadith comes to the rescue when it interprets how lightly/strongly you can beat her, i.e with a miswak which won't even hurt a toddler. So your interpretation based on your subjective logic was wrong itself. There are countless other examples.
When you leave Quran open to interpretation without hadith or to at least someone who atleast knows Arabic, then you have gems like head-cover isn't cumpulsory for woman, again subjective logic you think hair as beauty other might not. (In any case the verse was very clear and no interpretation was required).

Ijtihad can only be practiced by a mujtahid. If you want to do something like rejecting the hadith(Hadith rejectors usually do a little more than making themselves look like fools in a debate) then learn Arabic and study Quran as it is in Arabic only. Study hadith which you are rejecting, study Islamic history and do that from every angle. You can't do ijtihad just like that.

Excellent post my friend. Hope your citadel stays strong as long as the Almighty wills it....many others are in ruins by this very process from ulterior insidious forces that were within them...that took hold like a cancer.

 

[GumNaam]

Excellent post my friend. Hope your citadel stays strong as long as the Almighty wills it....many others are in ruins by this very process from ulterior insidious forces that were within them...that took hold like a cancer.

Hmm...interesting to see that a nonmuslim from india (most probably a hindu) who claims to be merely interested in learning about Islam and other religions as a simple observer wishes for the traditional so called "citadel" that is marred with sectarian and egotistical corruptions and perversions with ABSOLUTELY 0 merit or evidence from The Quran and the authentic sunnah to stay "strong"! very interesting indeed .. I for one am compelled to think now whose purposes and agendas are these molvi loving traditionalists REALLY serving... this debate just went to a whole new level of complexity!

 

[Nilgiri]

View attachment 472262
Hmm...interesting to see that a nonmuslim from india (most probably a hindu) who claims to be merely interested in learning about Islam and other religions as a simple observer wishes for the traditional so called "citadel" that is marred with sectarian and egotistical corruptions and perversions with ABSOLUTELY 0 merit or evidence from The Quran and the authentic sunnah to stay "strong"! very interesting indeed .. I for one am compelled to think now whose purposes and agendas are these molvi loving traditionalists REALLY serving... this debate just went to a whole new level of complexity!

Why don't you go to my profile page and screenshot and past some more here....you are such a great detective after all

I am basically saying all faith systems should stay strong and true as long as they can....there is process of undermining (and you are free to argue/debate which perspective is most relevant regarding that). I am nowhere near authority on details of your citadel, but from outside I do see one and see it is worth having....and I know of far too many where I do know the internal workings and processes that ruined them..... @Desert Fox and @Psychic are two people I just have talked with a lot, so I trust their judgement on it. If you have something to say about me being Hindu/outsider meaning I cannot comment on the general nature of what faith systems all go through their lifetimes, come out and say it direct please.

 

[GumNaam]

Why don't you go to my profile page and screenshot and past some more here....you are such a great detective after all

Raises eye brows none the less...

 

[Psychic]

I won't accept any narration or any historical account unless it conforms Quran

@Desert Fox @Nilgiri
Who's asking you to accept those which are against the Quran? Don't put words in my mouth.
So you will accept those which conform to the Quran, good. Good to see the change from Quran only.
In fact, hadith which contradicted the Quran were "deleted" by the scholars themselves.
You call hadith as maligning ProphetSAW's wives yet the ghussul which you perform conforms to the very same or similar hadith. You can't see the logic, doesn't necessarily mean there isn't one.


And I already explained in detail why the Quran can only be interpreted in the light of hadith, if left open to interpretation by rejecting the hadith, the whole Muslim world will be engulfed in fitnah.
There is no divine decree to follow anyone but the way of the ProphetSAW (which someone calls a shirk, perhaps grave worshipping isn't shirk according to them and what Abd al Wahab did was)

its not you who would be questioned, for not blindly agreeing to work of people like Bukhari and Tabri

Your argument is self-destructive. You as a follower of Abu Hanifa are throwing rocks from a glass house.

I won't be posting in this thread again. take care.

 

[Arsalan 345]

yes israel have the right to throw palestinian from their own country and call it israel. mbs is a mad stupid wahhabi who is basically a jew so real face is now clearly visible.also these wahhabis can't dictate muslims what to do or what not to do.someone should tell this stupid wahhabi that nobody cares about wahhabism and don't relate pakistan with your stupid ideology of saree and burqa.there are clear orders when it comes to hijab.and bangladesh lol i mean wow. i have never read this kind of crap before.

 

[I.R.A]

Who's asking you to accept those which are against the Quran? Don't put words in my mouth.
So you will accept those which conform to the Quran, good. Good to see the change from Quran only.
In fact, hadith which contradicted the Quran were "deleted" by the scholars themselves.
You call hadith as maligning ProphetSAW's wives yet the ghussul which you perform conforms to the very same or similar hadith. You can't see the logic, doesn't necessarily mean there isn't one.

There is no need to make it personal.

Come on ...... I have been saying all along ........Quran reins supreme. Anything that contradicts Quran is null and void and the six so called holy books are full of such things. I quoted one tradition for you and you never commented on that, neither you answered the questions, that I raised.

And what logic? If you cannot see the subliminal insults, its not my problem. I asked you one simple thing would your molvis allow their wives to write such personal matters for public? They don't even allow them to exit the house ...... and you are trying to tell me that the most purest of women, the women who are our Mothers, disclosed their personal matters, because this is what your logic dictates. Koi Khauf e Khuda karo Quran called them Pak Bibia .... and read Quran again and again, Quran hasn't once degraded any of the biggest enemies. Quran hasn't used any abusive words for them, Quran hasn't disclosed what they did in their personal lives .... whereas on the other hand, the traditions which you call interpretation of Quran, go on to explain how Companions of Messenger (Peace be upon him) would check the thighs of female salves by raising their covers, how women should remove their pubic hair for returning warriors ....... one has to be literally really sick minded to attribute such things to people who have been honored in Quran.

And I already explained in detail why the Quran can only be interpreted in the light of hadith, if left open to interpretation by rejecting the hadith, the whole Muslim world will be engulfed in fitnah.
There is no divine decree to follow anyone but the way of the ProphetSAW (which someone calls a shirk, perhaps grave worshipping isn't shirk according to them and what Abd al Wahab did was)

Buddy for goodness sake, if traditions are interpretation of Quran, then at least one would expect interpretation to be in a better language, better arranged, non repetitive, and straight without any contradictions, but the reality is language of traditions is far inferior compared to Quran, and they are full of contradictions whereas there is not a single contradiction in Quran. ALLAH guarantee for protection of Quran, who gave guarantee for traditions?

Your argument is self-destructive. You as a follower of Abu Hanifa are throwing rocks from a glass house.

I won't be posting in this thread again. take care.

I don't follow Abu Hanifa, I told you I am not Sunni, I am not Shia ........ I gave you example of what Abu Hanifa thought of traditions. At least read the books of traditions yourself.