Leaked report: Pakistan had 'major failures' during OBL incident

[Jango]

Easy - no belligerence allowed. The Army has to be reconstructed, there's no escaping that, but that does not mean starting from scratch - the Army was turned from a professional army into a islamist army - this was done through ideological indoctrination and incentivising an Islamist outlook.

You need to spend a month in the unit lines to see how much of an influence Islam has on the Army dealings...

lEt me give you and example of the kinds of problems the Army's ideology causes: The Pakistan Army claims Swat asIn Swat, Pakistan Army adamant on fighting ‘other Taliban’ – The Express Tribune a success,

This is the best example of my post about preconceived notions. The writer doesn't give any source, or a link to his claim, simply writes that the Army is in a fix to distinguish b/w Afghan and Pak Taliban. This is a preconceived notion...some of it may be true, but this sure doesn't fit in the Swat scenario. I don't know how the author is fixing that thing in the Swat scenario.

A writer can write anything and you would believe it?

If you will note something about Pakistan, which I would suggest is unique, is Pakistanis complete lack of a moral compass -absolutely anything is Ok so long as you can atttach "Islamic" infront of it, it does not have to sense, it does not and indeed cannot be judged on criteria such as good/bad and right/wrong --- This must be reversed

Agreed.

let me give you just a small example.

There is a mosque near our house, which was made through contributions of the whole neighbourhood. All of the people here are not your hardline Muslims or anything like that, just pray 5 times, fast, zakat etc...very good people. So the mosque got made and it served as a community centre for the neighborhood. The Friday prayer time was set at 1:45...the Imam extended his sermon to 1:55...at the end of the sermon, the Imam said 'Allah humain Quran o SUnnat par amal paira honay ki taufeeq ata farmaye'. Then as everybody was getting up, an old man (old resident of the neighborhood, widely respected, shareef insan,) said slowly to the Imam, Maulana sahib, Sunnat main waqt ki pabandi ka bhi bola gaya hai, puray time par khutba khatm kia karai.

At that moment, 3-4 gys with huge beards got up and started pushing and dragging the old man. They abused him and said gustakh tumhari himmat kaisay hui yeh kahnay ki etc etc. The other folks resolved the issue and the old man suffered a mild heart attack but was okay.

Another case, In Pakistan you can't do anything to a mosque. There is a mosque in G-11 sector in Islamabad. It started off as a small mosque, the size of your average sitting room. Slowly the mosque started to get big, the walls were made more solid, boundary was set up etc. The CDA officials came and wanted to remove the mosque since it was built illegally. The people started protesting that kafir CDA is destroying a mosque. And now the mosque is a multistorey madrassah complex with barbed wires on the walls and burly figures with sticks guarding the main door. It looks like a fort.

Then Lal Masjid, it was built illegally (Jamia Hafsa)...a mosque built illegally isn't a mosque, which is supposed to be a holy place. You can't justify the means to an end.

 

[muse]

So it's not that you disagree but rather that you think it's a poorly written piece??

BTW, if the Army was doing it's job and not telling people to call the police, that old man might have been better treated -- So you all pitched in and somebody else gets to run the Mosque? Who pays the Mullah?

 

[Awesome]

I hold Kayani responsible since he was DG ISI and then COAS, he was and still is the biggest fish to catch.

If OBL is hiding in Pak who is going to catch him? HIM

If a foreign military attacks your city who is going to defend? HIM!

He should be fired - dishonorably - on the spot. There can be no doubt about it.

 

[Jango]

BTW, if the Army was doing it's job and not telling people to call the police, that old man might have been better treated -- So you all pitched in and somebody else gets to run the Mosque? Who pays the Mullah?

Sorry could you repeat?

 

[Argus Panoptes]

I hold Kayani responsible since he was DG ISI and then COAS, he was and still is the biggest fish to catch.

If OBL is hiding in Pak who is going to catch him? HIM

If a foreign military attacks your city who is going to defend? HIM!

He should be fired - dishonorably - on the spot. There can be no doubt about it.

You and your idealism can hold Gen Kayani responsible all you want, but the individual in question was promoted from DG ISI to COAS, and then given a three year extension on top of that. That is diametrically opposite to your demands of a dishonorable discharge, and speaks loudly about how things are actually done and rewarded in our great country, idealism be damned.

 

[Developereo]

While we seem to be obsessed with recriminations, and they certainly have their place, what I don't see is a roadmap for the future.

To cut to the chase, how many people would trust their bank account details, let alone national security, to Nawaaz Sharif?

 

[Argus Panoptes]

While we seem to be obsessed with recriminations, and they certainly have their place, what I don't see is a roadmap for the future.

To cut to the chase, how many people would trust their bank account details, let alone national security, to Nawaaz Sharif?

A big fat ZERO. None. Except a few fools may be.

 

[forcetrip]

There is no doubt that Kayani needs to answer for his unpreparedness. What if he lays down a wish list of new radars and divisions of fast reaction teams or basically getting the dolorian so that he can travel to the future and get a hold of future weapons to defeat another infiltration like this? The important part is do we have the money to protect ourselves from invisible attacks? including cyber ones? Do you think attacking a country with a Stuxnet virus is not an act of war?

 

[FaujHistorian]

COAS Kayani has to be dishonorably discharged in the wake of this report. From beginning to end - it was his failure the most.

This is exactly what Islamists wanted by hiding Ben mofo Laden in Abbot Abad.

You are unfortunately become (unknowingly) part of the AQ plot.


peace

 

[Developereo]

A big fat ZERO. None. Except a few fools may be.

Therein lies our quandary.

Of course, no one likes to have a secret organization without accountability but, with champions like Nawaaz ruling the roost, and Zardari/Billy Boy in waiting, what choice do we have?

I am talking reality check here, Pakistani-style, as opposed to how things should be.

 

[FaujHistorian]

There is no doubt that Kayani needs to answer for his unpreparedness.

Why do you think Kiyani didn't know American special ops are coming in. It is well known in military circle that he knew before hand.

the only thing in dispute is the length of time he knew about it "in advance".

peace

 

[Argus Panoptes]

Therein lies our quandary.

Of course, no one likes to have a secret organization without accountability but, with champions like Nawaaz ruling the roost, and Zardari/Billy Boy in waiting, what choice do we have?

I am talking reality check here, Pakistani-style, as opposed to how things should be.

The only choices we have, reality checked, Pakistani style, are only bad (to let the steady downward slide continue to its inevitable conslusion) and worse (to try misguided attempts to change the system now and blow up in short order). You pick which one we want, Sir.

 

[SBD-3]

There is no doubt that Kayani needs to answer for his unpreparedness. What if he lays down a wish list of new radars and divisions of fast reaction teams or basically getting the dolorian so that he can travel to the future and get a hold of future weapons to defeat another infiltration like this? The important part is do we have the money to protect ourselves from invisible attacks? including cyber ones? Do you think attacking a country with a Stuxnet virus is not an act of war?

The report actually reveals that CIA and ISI trust deficit had widened pretty much pre-abbotabad. However, CIA did tip ISI about two telephone numbers to monitor without specifically linking them to Al-Quaida.
More interestingly, the commission notes the incident as an unexpected blow to military leadership. Referring to Deputy Chief of Staff, the report mentions that Pakistani military policymaker never even considered a scenario where US would intervene and attack Pakistani territory. Whats more ironic is that CAS-PAF learned about the intrusion from the phone of COAS and PAF ADA scrable was 1) So late that when they took to air Americans were already out 2) was so tactically blinded that they had virtually no situational awareness while heading over to Abbottabad. Even the PAF pilots got the news through TV. Commission was clearly disappointed with the performance of PAF and the testimoney of DCAS. PAF was caught in deep nap by USMs

 

[forcetrip]

Why do you think Kiyani didn't know American special ops are coming in. It is well known in military circle that he knew before hand.

the only thing in dispute is the length of time he knew about it "in advance".

peace

Nowhere in the report or any other publishing has anyone suggested that there was forewarning given to COAS or the ISI, every report points to the fact that there was absolutely no communication between the two armies. If you have any sources you can mention those with due credit to phupa, mama or hearsay and we can go from there.

The report actually reveals that CIA and ISI trust deficit had widened pretty much pre-abbotabad. However, CIA did tip ISI about two telephone numbers to monitor without specifically linking them to Al-Quaida.
More interestingly, the commission notes the incident as an unexpected blow to military leadership. Referring to Deputy Chief of Staff, the report mentions that Pakistani military policymaker never even considered a scenario where US would intervene and attack Pakistani territory. Whats more ironic is that CAS-PAF learned about the intrusion from the phone of COAS and PAF ADA scrable was 1) So late that when they took to air Americans were already out 2) was so tactically blinded that they had virtually no situational awareness while heading over to Abbottabad. Even the PAF pilots got the news through TV. Commission was clearly disappointed with the performance of PAF and the testimoney of DCAS. PAF was caught in deep nap by USMs

The point is that with no warning could anything different have been achieved? I give you that it was a careful planned op against a third world army with very little resources to defend against a well coordinated stealth operation. Whats done is done. Fire Kayani for incompetence. Can the next COAS promise us that this will not happen again? If he can then at what cost?

 

[FaujHistorian]

Nowhere in the report or any other publishing has anyone suggested that there was forewarning given to COAS or the ISI, every report points to the fact that there was absolutely no communication between the two armies. If you have any sources you can mention those with due credit to phupa, mama or hearsay and we can go from there.

Yaaara. you are arguing for the sake of argument.

It is well known that Pakistani radars detected the intrusion and F-16s were put on alert. Then GHQ asked them to stand down within minutes.


Your are nitpicking a political report. FYI it is not a military analysis of the situation.

Pak army had not given any documented set of military logs from any radar station, or log files of area commanders.

peace to you.

May you live long and prosper

May you have great spiritual experience during this holy month.

Amen