Korea: The First War We Lost

[Desertfalcon]

hehe, you still can't win this war

You're right..................because we aren't in one. Our relationship is one of mutual benefit, hence, why China is America's 2nd biggest trading partner and America is China's biggest and most important trading partner. Do you not know this? That you post so many beautiful pictures that are the result of China's rejection of Marxism and embrace of the exact same kinds of models as Park Chung-hee, i.e., integrating market capitalism, is the evidence that the ideas of the West have already won. Your pictures make me proud of the tremendous progress China has made since Deng Xiaoping and the opening to the West! And just like South Korea, one day, the Chinese people will insist on democracy to go along with their growing prosperity.

 

[Lure]

Gee, my father and uncle fought in the Korean War. I remember them having a very different take on it's outcome.

South Korea is today, a thriving, prosperous democracy. Some "defeat".

Thank you superior American master to your holy uncle and father. Without their superior efforts and high christian moral values, ignorant Koreans wouldn't find their ways and get lost in the poverty and chaos. Thanks to your contributions and your orientation subhuman Koreans found their way to civilization!

The efforts of your beloved soldiers are making World a much better place each and every day. We can see it in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Congo, Dominican Republic, Thainland, Lebanon, Grenada, Panama, Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia and Kosovo.

All of that countries that you've invaded above are living very prosperous, with World class freedom and high moral values. Without American boots on the ground I couldn't even imagine how bad their lives would be. Thanks a lot for guiding us to a better future superior American forum poster.

Please sir! Bomb the shit out of us until the democracy and prosperity comes to our countries, just like Korea.

 

[Desertfalcon]

Thank you superior American master to your holy uncle and father.

Yah, that tells me that you are just another ridiculous juvenile troll not worthy of one more second of my time.

 

[Tiqiu]

You're right..................because we aren't in one. Our relationship is one of mutual benefit, hence, why China is America's 2nd biggest trading partner and America is China's biggest and most important trading partner. Do you not know this? That you post so many beautiful pictures that are the result of China's rejection of Marxism and embrace of the exact same kinds of models as Park Chung-hee, i.e., integrating market capitalism, is the evidence that the ideas of the West have already won. Your pictures make me proud of the tremendous progress China has made since Deng Xiaoping and the opening to the West! And just like South Korea, one day, the Chinese people will insist on democracy to go along with their growing prosperity.

China is already the no.1 trading partner of the US, it took over Canada last year.

 

[Nan Yang]

We can only wonder if the Party will allow such public criticisms, the same type that the Chinese members here takes with glee when it is about the US.


The two Koreas are products of conflicting ideologies with their respective agents and sponsorship. As such, how they turned out is both a reflection of the native peoples AND their sponsors. Like it or not, it does have a lot to do with the US, China, and the now defunct Soviet Union.

I disagree. The Korean war ended 60 years ago and China withdrew every single soldier. USSR collapsed over 30 years ago.

Its like blaming the British for all of India's problems.

 

[j20blackdragon]

That you post so many beautiful pictures that are the result of China's rejection of Marxism and embrace of the exact same kinds of models as Park Chung-hee, i.e., integrating market capitalism, is the evidence that the ideas of the West have already won.

Which ideas of the West have China adopted?
China didn't adopt democracy and universal suffrage.
China didn't adopt Christianity.
China didn't adopt a US-style constitution with separation of powers and a bill of rights.

China didn't adopt US-style capitalism either. Virtually all of China's largest companies are state-owned enterprises.

List of largest Chinese companies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The notion of "market capitalism" being a Western idea is pretty funny to begin with. Are you saying supply and demand never existed before the West?

 

[Desertfalcon]

Which ideas of the West have China adopted?
China didn't adopt democracy and universal suffrage.

Not yet! Instead you adopted German-Jewish invented Marxism.

China didn't adopt Christianity.

No, you adopted, (until recently.), Western Socialist atheism. Although Christianity is growing at a very rapid rate in China.

http://www.cfr.org/china/christianity-china/p36503

China didn't adopt a US-style constitution with separation of powers and a bill of rights.

Redundant, covered in Question #1. Again, Western invented Marxism.

China didn't adopt US-style capitalism either. Virtually all of China's largest companies are state-owned enterprises.

I never claimed it was complete, only that China clearly has adopted Western capitalist models. I don't care what the Communist Party called it, EVERYONE knows it involved all the classic market formulas of competition, privatisation, profit incentive, private property encouragement, labour competition, massive foreign investment, creating stock exchanges, etc., etc. And the State owning particular companies does not mean that they are not still broadly "capitalist". Western European Social and Christian Democracy are classic examples. Even China's state owned industries have massively contracted out manufacturing and privatized elements within it.

The notion of "market capitalism" being a Western idea is pretty funny to begin with. Are you saying supply and demand never existed before the West?

No, nor did I ever. It's always existed but the economy that China's economy is an integral part of today and the economic reforms she enacted to integrate into that economy, (which she was NOT part of until the economic reforms started by Deng Xiaoping.), is most certainly Western in it's genesis, mixed with some socialism and all.

Now I know you may want to say, "But OUR capitalism is a special Chinese version/invention!" Which I will answer by saying, sure; just as the Japanese have their "version" and the Scandinavians, their "version, and we Americans our "version" of capitalism, but market capitalism, it still most certainly is. Like it or not, modern China has adopted Western models from her gleaming skyscraper cities to her Starbucks coffee franchises to her skateboarding teens to her rapidly expanding consumer culture.

Oh yeah, no evil Western influence in China alright!

 

[gambit]

Now I know you may want to say, "But OUR capitalism is a special Chinese version/invention!" Which I will answer by saying, sure; just as the Japanese have their "version" and the Scandinavians, their "version, and we Americans our "version" of capitalism, but market capitalism, it still most certainly is. Like it or not, modern China has adopted Western models from her gleaming skyscraper cities to her Starbucks coffee franchises to her skateboarding teens to her rapidly expanding consumer culture.

Oh yeah, no evil Western influence in China alright!

No...Absolutely no influence at all...

Harley Davidson National Rally in China - The Atlantic

Pic 15 with that little boy is just so 'awwww...'

 

[C130]

Korea war was winnable, but the removal of MacArthur and not wanting to sacrafice young mens lives was the reason we lost.

we could have had a 10 to 1 kill ratio against the communist. but that would still mean even if we killed 1,000,000 we would still suffer 100,000 Americans deaths,. The commie leadership just didn't care about their soldiers lives. just throw them in the meat grinder you got 50,000,000 more in reserve.

 

[gambit]

I disagree. The Korean war ended 60 years ago and China withdrew every single soldier. USSR collapsed over 30 years ago.

Its like blaming the British for all of India's problems.

We do not visit the sins of the father onto the son. Likewise, we should not -- and USUALLY do not -- blame the parents for the sins of the children. However, if the parents have been abusive and/or neglectful of their duties, then as the children grows up, they too will be abusive and neglectful of their duties as adults, and to the next generation.

From that perspective, the differences between the two Koreas lies squarely at BOTH the feet of the two Korean peoples and how they were raised, specifically the ideologies and politics that were introduced as guiding principles. The ideologies are the equivalent of those parents. Clearly, Marxism-communism as parents failed, not just in North Korea but everywhere in the world where communism was imposed. Its failure is so bad that your China abandoned it in the nick of time, like in a movie where the car stopped right at the edge of the cliff where below is raging river water running around large rocks. Your China effectively turned to the West and called out 'Give us a better parent. Teach us a better way'. The operative word is 'better', not 'best' or 'perfect' because nothing is perfect.

And the West responded.

 

[xunzi]

Why? We do not want to create another Vietnam. Korea and Vietnam have similar mentality. South Korea's relation to China is the best because it is pro-business and its nationalism is suppressed by United States.

United States always wants to have a test in the unknown territory. It was hit hard in Korea to test the power of China. Then it can sit down to negotiate with you.

Similarly in SCS, China should keep tough stance. When it feels hard to press China, it will come to talk about interest exchange. United States behaves like a greed businessman. It always wants to have interests as big as possible, but it can go with small interests if it has to.

We would have destroyed and murdered the UN and the US troops if it wasn't for the severely lack of firepower and logistics. Let remind our friends that we have got out of the WWII with a broken arms and the Chinese Civil War with a broken legs. Still, we fought the Korean War on pure determination to expel foreign forces near our border. That was definitely one of the highlight of modern PLA. Zhou Enlai was a legend in that war. So we do own our great Uncle a great thank you.

That's the equivalent of saying "if we had alien technology, we would be dominating the world today".

We would never accept an armistice if it wasn't for the lack of firepower.

 

[Dungeness]

We would have destroyed and murdered the UN and the US troops if it wasn't for the severely lack of firepower and logistics. Let remind our friends that we have got out of the WWII with a broken arms and the Chinese Civil War with a broken legs. Still, we fought the Korean War on pure determination to expel foreign forces near our border. That was definitely one of the highlight of modern PLA. Zhou Enlai was a legend in that war. So we do own our great Uncle a great thank you.


We would never accept an armistice if it wasn't for the lack of firepower.

There is no "what if" in the history. It was an unfair game, but PVA used their lives to make up the deficit on the weaponry and logistic capability.

I am sure China doesn't want to be in the same situation ever again, so I was surprised to know the China's defense budget only increases by 7.6% this year, considering the threats it faces in all fronts right now.

 

[xunzi]

There is no "what if" in the history. It was an unfair game, but PVA used their lives to make up the deficit on the weaponry and logistic capability.

I am sure China doesn't want to be in the same situation ever again, so I was surprised to know the China's defense budget only increases by 7.6% this year, considering the threats it faces in all fronts right now.

You're right. I also hate to play the "What if" game. But it is definitely something that sour my mouth when I think of the uncles fighting enemy without standard support. Historically, foreign wars were always brought upon our door steps. We never instigate those wars. It was brought upon us and we took that challenges.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

Oh yeah, no evil Western influence in China alright!

yesteryear

hmm....

 

[Akasa]

both side actually did not achieve their overall strategically objective. Only tactical objective on both side are achieved. If this war have to declare a winner, no one win in this war, especially the war have actually not over.

In a brief look, the UN achieve their first tactical objective by pushing the North Korean out of South Korea, but failed when they modified their objective to expel the North Korean in total, by Chinese intervention.

China, also achieve their first tactical objective by pushing the UN force just south of North Korea, however, they themselves crossed into South Korea and failed their objective to roll over the South Korean and UN force.

Shall UN stopped at 38 parallel in the first setting, UN would have won the war with both Tactical and Strategically Objective achieved.

Shall China stopped at 38 parallel as well, they would also have won the war, but the fact is, neither one did stop at that, hence neither actually won.

On the other hand, since nobody won, that also mean nobody actually lose. The war, best stated. would be in antebellum state (Which mean before the war) which neither side did anything to others. and thus, a status quo.

And if I were you, I would actually not say that, because to these Chinese member, you are not one of them if you disagree with them hehe

So, TL;DR,

The Chinese and UN essentially reached a compromise after being in a perpetual stalemate for over two years. Not quite unlike what the Triple Alliance and the Entente underwent almost forty years prior. The Chinese knew that pushing towards Seoul had become a lost cause, as they were being pulverized by combined UN forces, while the UN also realized that to force the Chinese into an unconditional surrender would warrant either (1) the use of nuclear weapons, or (2) extending the war, time- and material-wise. The first option risked retaliation from the USSR while the second probably wouldn't have garnered enough support amongst Western audiences.

But yeah, I think we both agree that "victory" cannot be attributed to either party.

Korea war was winnable, but the removal of MacArthur and not wanting to sacrafice young mens lives was the reason we lost.

we could have had a 10 to 1 kill ratio against the communist. but that would still mean even if we killed 1,000,000 we would still suffer 100,000 Americans deaths,. The commie leadership just didn't care about their soldiers lives. just throw them in the meat grinder you got 50,000,000 more in reserve.

Just to be clear, MacArthur's dismissal wasn't to preclude greater American involvement in the conflict, but rather to prevent a loose cannon from poking his nose into matters in which the president believed he didn't belong. I really hate to say this, but one could argue that MacArthur's unilateral decision to send his forces right up to the Chinese border, against the orders issued by the Truman administration, indirectly led to the Chinese intervention. Another minor detail was his proposal involving using nuclear weapons as a measure of last resort, which, for the political circumstances that preceded the Korean War, didn't sit well with the White House.