Korea: The First War We Lost

[Steve781]

The North Korean war aim was to conquer the South. That was a failure. You might say the Chinese fulfilled the goal of their entry if you want to but in no sense did the Communist side "win".

 

[sicsheep]

We can only wonder if the Party will allow such public criticisms, the same type that the Chinese members here takes with glee when it is about the US.


The two Koreas are products of conflicting ideologies with their respective agents and sponsorship. As such, how they turned out is both a reflection of the native peoples AND their sponsors. Like it or not, it does have a lot to do with the US, China, and the now defunct Soviet Union.

hahaha, North Korea is a reflection of China? then today's Iraq and Afghanistan should be a reflection of USA

 

[Tiqiu]

The North Korean war aim was to conquer the South. That was a failure. You might say the Chinese fulfilled the goal of their entry if you want to but in no sense did the Communist side "win".

Mao never supported NK' s move to unify the south, in fact China was angry about Kim and had played no part in his sudden attack. So it is unfair to put China in your "communist side" when judging winner and loser. China's only goal was no American boots/ military bases near her boarder threading her security, so China is the winner for achieving this objective.

 

[gambit]

hahaha, North Korea is a reflection of China?

Yes.

then today's Iraq and Afghanistan should be a reflection of USA

You can say so, but then you can also say Europe. Then considering how much your China took after US in terms of massive reforms...

The North Korean war aim was to conquer the South. That was a failure. You might say the Chinese fulfilled the goal of their entry if you want to but in no sense did the Communist side "win".

It is a staple of communist propaganda that anything must be interpreted as a 'victory'.

 

[Steve781]

You can say so, but then you can also say Europe.
.

Present day Europe is not much of a success. More successful than Iraq and Afghanistan maybe.

 

[Dungeness]

It is a staple of communist propaganda that anything must be interpreted as a 'victory'.

You are right, they could have said it a different way:

 

[gambit]

Present day Europe is not much of a success. More successful than Iraq and Afghanistan maybe.

There is no 'maybe' about it.

A binary choice is always a good indicator of a person's true state of mind, attitude, and ability to discern. So between any European country that is the recipient of post WW II recovery efforts and any country in the ME from the same era, where would YOU rather live ? By 'live', I do not mean merely staying there, but actually settling roots in terms of starting and raising a family, leaving your own legacy no matter how small or large to the country, making associations from acquaintances to close friends, etc..etc...

Whatever nation-building we may have tried, there is no guarantee that the recipient will succeed to our expectations. All we can do is hope.

 

[Tiqiu]

Now I know you may want to say, "But OUR capitalism is a special Chinese version/invention!" Which I will answer by saying, sure; just as the Japanese have their "version" and the Scandinavians, their "version, and we Americans our "version" of capitalism, but market capitalism, it still most certainly is. Like it or not, modern China has adopted Western models from her gleaming skyscraper cities to her Starbucks coffee franchises to her skateboarding teens to her rapidly expanding consumer culture.

I think not many people, even in China, would want to deny what the role of the West influences have played behind the China's rapid modernization, as to some of what you have summarized. That said, China's success is mainly attributed to her own hard working people, people who are not afraid of change and who can combine Eastern Wisdom and Western Wisdom together. The Chinese, like what Japan and Korea did early, have finally figured out the 7 pillars of Western Wisdom which enabled the West to succeed after the WW2: 1.Free market economics 2.Science and technology 3.Meritocracy 4.Pragmatism 5. Education 6. Rule of law 7. Culture of peace. It is a bit irony here, how much does the West still believe in them?

 

[Tiqiu]

yesteryear

hmm....

Haha, Which one have you chosen? My guess was the first one, right?

Talking about influence, I am surprised that in the US some American youths still remember these Mao words: "Dare to Struggle,Dare to Win"; "No Investigation, No Right to Speak". Even in China not many youths know these I think.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

Haha, Which one have you chosen? My guess was the first one, right?

Talking about influence, I am surprised that in the US some American youths still remember these Mao words: "Dare to Struggle,Dare to Win"; "No Investigation, No Right to Speak". Even in China not many youths know these I think.

The "PYO" (Progressive Youth Organization) is a Socialist group in Kansas City. So of course they may use Socialist lingo.

Progressive Youth Organization

 

[jhungary]

Mao never supported NK' s move to unify the south, in fact China was angry about Kim and had played no part in his sudden attack. So it is unfair to put China in your "communist side" when judging winner and loser. China's only goal was no American boots/ military bases near her boarder threading her security, so China is the winner for achieving this objective.

This is wrong.

China abandoned that objective when they themselves crossed over from the 38th and launch the Spring Offensive in 1951, that offensive is committed "SOUTH" of Seoul, the capital of South Korea.

Battle of Imjin River is a major Chinese invasion to the South Crossing the Imjin (Tradition Border route to Seoul) and the fact that the Chinese Captured Seoul the second time before the Spring Offensive have see a clear change of Chinese Objective in the matter. Because it goes a lot more than simply "want no US base around Chinese border"

China did, achieve that objective on rolling back the American Force, but failed when the Chinese tried to capitalize the situation. And Strategically, Chinese fail to capitalize the American Withdrawal can be seen as a strategically failure.

Haha, Which one have you chosen? My guess was the first one, right?

Talking about influence, I am surprised that in the US some American youths still remember these Mao words: "Dare to Struggle,Dare to Win"; "No Investigation, No Right to Speak". Even in China not many youths know these I think.

And "Dare to Struggle, Dare to Win" is not exactly "Mao's word" Mao may have said this, but it was the basic ideology communicate from Socialism by Karl Marx, which the urge the worker class to struggle.

And also, the word were echoed by Fred Hampton in the 1969 before his assassination (or so called)

 

[j20blackdragon]

There is no 'maybe' about it.

A binary choice is always a good indicator of a person's true state of mind, attitude, and ability to discern. So between any European country that is the recipient of post WW II recovery efforts and any country in the ME from the same era, where would YOU rather live ? By 'live', I do not mean merely staying there, but actually settling roots in terms of starting and raising a family, leaving your own legacy no matter how small or large to the country, making associations from acquaintances to close friends, etc..etc...

Whatever nation-building we may have tried, there is no guarantee that the recipient will succeed to our expectations. All we can do is hope.

If I were Arab, I would prefer to live in Qatar, Kuwait, or the UAE over the average country in the EU.

I would prefer to live in Singapore over Greece.

I would prefer to live in the PRC over India.

Now tell me, which of these countries are more democratic and free from the American perspective?

 

[3Kingdoms]

This is wrong.

China abandoned that objective when they themselves crossed over from the 38th and launch the Spring Offensive in 1951, that offensive is committed "SOUTH" of Seoul, the capital of South Korea.

After the 'Battle of the Ch'ongch'on' December 1950 Mao got word that UNC contemplated evacuation from Korean Peninsula. He ordered CPV to attack the South, crossing the 38th parallel. The maneuver would further break supply lines; December 23 1950, Zhou Enlai rejects UN ceasefire calling all UN forces out of the Korean Peninsula.
With the CPV rejecting a ceasefire and called for the UN out of the Korean Peninsula it bolstered UN resolve to defend the South.

I give props to General Mathew Ridgway for taking late command of a retreating 8th Army; consolidating spirits and driving out CPV from the south.

But Peng Dehuai (even though he failed latter battles) had to do with lack of supplies, citizens distributing rations and munitions in straw rucksacks. I mean the guy directed battles with bugle calls and whistles - winning battles from Yalu River to Seoul in what - just 3 months. Peng after the Korean War, due to huge loss of his soldiers lives called for modernization of weapons and training of China's military - shame he was tortured and thrown into prison.
R.I.P “Hero of the Korean Democratic People’s Republic ” !

 

[jhungary]

After the 'Battle of the Ch'ongch'on' December 1950 Mao got word that UNC contemplated evacuation from Korean Peninsula. He ordered CPV to attack the South, crossing the 38th parallel. The maneuver would further break supply lines; December 23 1950, Zhou Enlai rejects UN ceasefire calling all UN forces out of the Korean Peninsula.
With the CPV rejecting a ceasefire and called for the UN out of the Korean Peninsula it bolstered UN resolve to defend the South.

I give props to General Mathew Ridgway for taking late command of a retreating 8th Army; consolidating spirits and driving out CPV from the south.

But Peng Dehuai (even though he failed latter battles) had to do with lack of supplies, citizens distributing rations and munitions in straw rucksacks. I mean the guy directed battles with bugle calls and whistles - winning battles from Yalu River to Seoul in what - just 3 months. Peng after the Korean War, due to huge loss of his soldiers lives called for modernization of weapons and training of China's military - shame he was tortured and thrown into prison.
R.I.P “Hero of the Korean Democratic People’s Republic ” !

Not entirely agree with what you said.

In all case, the problem with UN Army is that they do not have enough man to fight north. The UN Army was raise with liberate South in mind, the UN Army was not an Army that can and would continue all the way North. They simply don't have enough number (UN Army only strength at 320,000 augmented by 600,000 ROK troop. And the UN only gave conditional authorization to MacArthur to head north only "If at time, no Chinese or Soviet Intervention" which they actually did, and for which it is chalked up to MacArthur Oversight, a strategic failure.

The bulk of the Army that moved North from South Korea are ROK troop, understrength and undersupplied against the Chinese and the North Korean. This is the reason why the UN troop was routed that quickly.

On the other hand, Chinese and North Korea failed to take advantage of this oversight by MacArthur and did not gain much after the UN general withdrawal. In itself is a Strategic Failure. Another one would be Chinese and North Korean Knows they are undersupplied (like you said) and yet they still tried to move south in Spring Offensive. The UN actually did lose the battle of Imjin river (With the withdrawal of 3rd ID and 1 ROK division, along with the 29th Brigade to the no-name line) the Battle have ended the Chinese warfighting capability simply because it took the Chinese too much and too long to reach their objective, by then the Operational Objective is dead, along with the Strategical Objective of recapturing Seoul the 5th time.

It may sound heroic to use civilian to move supply by hand, but if you have to resort to this level of resupply, then that means you are not ready for an operation or campaign. Being brave or being resourceful is a good trait of a commander, but not necessarily help to fight a war.

 

[gambit]

If I were Arab,...

I asked about YOU as you are now, not if you can be someone else.

I would prefer to live in Singapore over Greece.

If you are Chinese, then perhaps Singapore would be apt. But Singapore is closer to Greece than to Saudi Arabia in many ways. Anyone would be more free in Singapore than he/she would in Saudi Arabia.

The bottom line is that sponsors bears some responsibilities on how their charges turned out. People blame US for Iraq but remove China from NKR ? Please be consistent.

While the democracy-capitalism combination have its successes and failures, the Marxist-communist combination have ALL been failures. Your China would have crashed and burned if it was not for capitalism, something China's previous leadership condemned in public but behind closed doors acknowledged that China could not survive without it. So they chugged along until retirement and let their descendants dared to do what they could not because they painted themselves into the corner.