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Killing India’s hidden ‘Cold Start’ strategy

i like my under-commands to work hard and rough it out and earn respect through rigor. Ofcourse i do point out mistakes during the process as i have done already.
No you didnt. And you want to believe what you have been told. Dont blame you. You want to believe that CSD entails a deep strike by all formations at once, where Pakistani forces are waiting for them. Nice.
Lolzz..i gave you an advice that you should have attacked Pakistan (which was in reply to an mistaken notion that LeT would have been punished by doing so as Op Prakarm had nothing to do with LeT expect making them an excuse for the aggression -
Op Parakram had to do with the LeT attack. If you want to believe otherwise, its your call. Like I said, critical thinking isnt your forte. You make that quite clear.
Yeah, ofcourse someone who kicked the little Jesus out of you during Kargil and Siachen would not know anything about strat, but an e-warrior in his stinking shorts sitting over that smelly couch of his would know more.
"Lolzz". Oh by kicking you mean running away when the heat turned up? You talking about a strategy doesnt make sense. Clearly you misunderstand the word. In the big picture, field maneuvers dont make strategies. Those are made by politicians advised by a team of highly competent academics, not grunts. Whatever excuse you might give for your performance there, we will accept it as a face saving exercise out of pity.
Anywho, my stinking shorts seem to have a better critical thinking ability than a tank brain.
 
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No you didnt. And you want to believe what you have been told. Dont blame you. You want to believe that CSD entails a deep strike by all formations at once, where Pakistani forces are waiting for them. Nice.
In order to let the confusion prevail to its prime, i would again reiterate that you need a serious reappraisal of CSD!

Op Parakram had to do with the LeT attack. If you want to believe otherwise, its your call. Like I said, critical thinking isnt your forte. You make that quite clear.
Which part of post # 111
Op Parakaram was a plain move by the Indian Hawks to punish Pakistan.. there was no "terrorist" target in mind.. just plain all out war.
The terrorists were an excuse to say the least.
or what i said you did not understand, Sun Tzu, Sire?

"Lolzz". Oh by kicking you mean running away when the heat turned up?
No.
i mean that stink from dead indian soldiers' corpse which made us change posts every now and then.

You talking about a strategy doesnt make sense. Clearly you misunderstand the word. In the big picture, field maneuvers dont make strategies. Those are made by politicians advised by a team of highly competent academics, not grunts. Whatever excuse you might give for your performance there, we will accept it as a face saving exercise out of pity.
And someone who dont know the freaking difference between a Corps and a Battle Group knows strategy better, right? Damn you dont even know the difference between tactical, operational and strategical levels and you educate me on who makes strategy!

Wow, shamelessness at its height.

Anywho, my stinking shorts seem to have a better critical thinking ability than a tank brain.
Oh do i see some self-praise around here?

'Anywho' what i see is that you are just short of cyber punching me and that strategical thinking leaking out below your couch is about to clog the gutters.
 
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For one i think ColdStart do exists, From what i analyise India sees pakistan as a threat as also gets irritated with K word and would like to eliminate this threat permanently, but the question is how ?

Situation: Terrorists strike in india, India uses cold start goes on war with pakistan - pakistan in return nukes india or voices to nuke india (India threatened with nukes in return nukes pakistan) threat removed - world favours india as it did it in self protection.

I think - this angle of indian planners should never be ignored, cold start to me is more like a trap.

Fair comments appreciated.
 
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if the indians are going to lie, they should at least learn how to do it properly......

Cold Start, while it would be unconscionable and most unprofessional to dismiss it or laugh it off, I don't think the bhartis would be in favour of it --or rather, that it would be favourable or lead to favourable outcome

If you provoke me, I could get provoked. If I am provoked or if I feel threatened, I won't be worth anything if I sit idly. I will attack you right back.


the simple reason is that I believe the plan would be caught onto before or right as it is hatched


the indians have some nice new shiny buildings in mumbai, in bangalore....some new developments opening up, a sign of --despite widespread poverty -- some good economic progress....i really would hate to see it all in smoky ruins. Honestly.


without going into the military tactics, planning, logistics, and all the meat of it; i can say that Pakistan will not sit idly in the unlikely event that the indian decided to give this strategy a try ---whether on one front or taking on (braving) two --as once implied by Gen. kapoor.


it's very silly to think that quick, coordinated strikes would render our military machine useless and/or the ''shock'' from the initial ''onslought'' would somehow deter Pakistan military and civilians from taking note of it and preparing themselves for an even longer, prolonged war --in which, I believe, many many people would die.


no reset button; this is no DVD with rewind, pause or fast forward...what happens happens, and then you, we and the world have to live with it.



the best advice i can give to the standard indian, sitting across my borders.......learn to co-exist and cooperate with your neighbours. The results would be more favourable.
 
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In order to let the confusion prevail to its prime, i would again reiterate that you need a serious reappraisal of CSD!

And someone who dont know the freaking difference between a Corps and a Battle Group knows strategy better, right? Damn you dont even know the difference between tactical, operational and strategical levels and you educate me on who makes strategy!
You are right about one thing. I misquoted Battle Group as Strike corps. That detail might be insignificant to an amateur like me, but you being the professional will take offence at the slight. Its would be as important to you as the difference between a 0.8% and 1.0% Agarose gel is to me. My apologies.

Apart from that, I dont find I am wrong with my interpretation of CSD. And your underestimating my understanding of differences between tactical, operational and strategic levels is baseless. Kargil where you claim to have participated was a tactically brilliant move, but operationally mismanaged and most importantly strategically a blunder!
Which part of post # 111or what i said you did not understand, Sun Tzu, Sire?
I have clearly noted in my post that Op Parakram was flawed right from the start. I have also clearly stated that GoP wasnt the target, but neither did India have a sound strategy about the operation. Though the initial idea was to teach Pakistan a lesson for supporting LeT, the element of surprise vanished while it became clear to policy makers that any conflict would develop into a full fledged war, which was NOT wanted by India.
You have been taught otherwise, and I dont blame you. You've got limitations, which we understand.
No.
i mean that stink from dead indian soldiers' corpse which made us change posts every now and then.
Lol. I find it funny that you attribute the stench of your soiled pants while running from Indian forces to our martyred braves. Funny, in all that confusion, you even forgot to collect the bodies of your soldiers. Did the stench of blown and dismembered comrades so scare you that you left them to rot on the mountains? Tch tch.

The utter disrespect you displayed for enemy soldiers is very unsoldier like. That is enough to tell us all about what kind of a 'soldier' you are. Pity the nation that has soldiers like you. You limited thinking capability and utter disrespect coupled by baseless arrogance has left everyone disgusted. You sir, are disgusting.

ps: I am done here. You cannot even carry a meaningful discussion, for a TT.
 
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can someone tell me why india even needs a CSD ? without the csd haven't we accomplished whatever we wanted in the past wars ? pardon my ignorance.
 
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can someone tell me why india even needs a CSD ? without the csd haven't we accomplished whatever we wanted in the past wars ? pardon my ignorance.
New situations need new ways of handling things...Military doctorines are constantly updated as per new ground reality....
 
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In order to let the confusion prevail to its prime, i would again reiterate that you need a serious reappraisal of CSD!


Which part of post # 111or what i said you did not understand, Sun Tzu, Sire?


No.
i mean that stink from dead indian soldiers' corpse which made us change posts every now and then.


And someone who dont know the freaking difference between a Corps and a Battle Group knows strategy better, right? Damn you dont even know the difference between tactical, operational and strategical levels and you educate me on who makes strategy!

Wow, shamelessness at its height.


Oh do i see some self-praise around here?

'Anywho' what i see is that you are just short of cyber punching me and that strategical thinking leaking out below your couch is about to clog the gutters.

And This is a professional soldier representing the army of a nation :rolleyes:
 
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Don't you think all the points that you have mentioned prooves that it is working???? Whatever we are doing only 2-3% of our GDP is being used. Care to look at the percentage of GDP you guys have to put in Defense. whether cold start is going to be a success or not, only time will tell. However at the moment it is doing two things

And how much GDP are we spending exactly ;), do you have the exact number because i remember reading about it not long ago it was around 4%. Pakistan Army will never let its budget reach a point where it becomes impossible for the economy to sustain it, we are not the Soviets or the North Koreans. Indeed whether Cold Start is a success or not only time will tell, but looking at the reality at ground this doctrine looks extremely shaky. The Indian Army wants to imitate NATO during Desert Storm, a fast thunderous attack that leaves the enemy shell shocked. One important fact you guys forget is that neither are your capabilities equivalent to those of NATO and your adversary fields one of the world's most battle hardened military machines.

- It is putting additional burden on already fragile economy

The economy is fragile due to the WOT and severe incompetence of the current Government. But the Armed Forces are not going out of their way and splashing billions of dollars on shiny new weapons, whatever weapons that are being acquired were already in the pipeline for quite some years and have already been paid for. The Armed Forces are using the money in the most cost effective manner; taking old F16's and putting them through CCIP, or taking OHP's and putting them through Genesis upgrade. They might not be as good as brand new but they definitely get the job done especially in our environment.

- It is giving one simple message. There will not be a showdown like 2003, there will be action.

Yup; Post Mumbai Attacks(Allah bless the souls of the victims) i heard the same thing but no action, only talk. Although the IAF did act a bit naughty but was replied in kind with an iron fist from PAF.

Now lets get back to this so called Cold Start Doctrine aka "Dhaka Start". This whole strategy was conceived after Indian Army's frustration with dealing with Pakistan in 2002. The Indian Army took months to mobilize and reach the border, and not to mention it cost the lives of 800 soldiers. Pakistan Army on the other hand mobilized with much more efficiency and Divisions from as far away as Balochistan and KP were at our Eastern Borders in less than 2 weeks.

Now the Indian Army wants a strategy where they will mass their assets at a much faster pace and escalate the conflict before the politicians could get a cold feet. Once IA has parked its tanks and other assets right next to the border, the politicians would probably feel helpless because it would be a shame for the IA to be called back to their peace time locations after such a huge effort.

Judging from the past, IA went for concentration of its forces against Pakistan. In Cold Start, IA wants to open multiple battle fronts and believe that they will be able to achieve this due to their superior numbers. This plan could definitely work but their is also equal chance of this plan of falling apart. If your IBG's are poorly led by your officers(IA is facing shortage in their officer core) and they fail to communicate with themselves effectively, than you have a huge problem because your enemy is not going to be just sitting there. If their is one thing PA can pride itself upon is its officer core, its simply top class and this opinion is shared by many international experts. So if your IBG's loose their steam in our territory and the attack falls apart after taking some punishment from the defenders, your IBG's are opening themselves to a counter attack or being outflanked. Your enemy also have the option of opening up another front and capturing part of your territory. If i remember after the Mumbai Attacks Gen Kapoor stated that he feared that Pakistan could capture part of Indian territory which would have been politically unacceptable. So this whole notion of an easy victory over Pakistan might be good for chest thumping in India, but in reality victory over Pakistan is no easy task. With all the billions that India has spent on weapons, Pakistan can counter whatever India can throw at them. Things are still fairly even balanced, that is why India has not taken any action against Pakistan.

I seriously urge you to not take PA as a bunch of push overs, reading the responses at this thread of our Indian friends certainly makes me think thats the Indian belief. Our war planners at GHQ take their job very seriously, they don't operate with complacency. In a shorter war what India is envisioning, the scales are very much even. Its going to be a short but bloody war and Pakistan definitely possess the weapons to make it bloody for India. I just pray that this day never comes when our tanks are exchanging fire, i would be much more happier if we are trading goods.
 
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^^ How would india carry on with fake terrorist infiltrations and attacks over its soil if we go in N Waziristan and destroy the terror network (as we did during Op RR and RN)?

Man you need CSD to blame us and monkey around with surgical strikes :lol:
For a military man, you are unbelievably naive to think that India expects PA to dismantle the terror network in NW, which PA has diligently built to hedge against India, if PA ever decides to go into NW. For a grown up man, you are incredibly puerile to think that India would need those terror camps to exist in NW to 'fake' infiltrations and attacks on it's soil, if India ever decides to 'fake' such. For a human being, you are unfathomably churlish to even hint that one the most heinous attacks against innocent men and women in India was 'faked' by India.

Some members have cast a doubt over your ability to think critically. I doubt, if you can think at all.
 
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I had quite a lot of respect for you before i read this post of yours! I thought you were an intelligent poster.
Alas, did not realize you were one of the trolls in disguise.

Sure, Cold start/suicide, cold turkey, whatever. What matters in the end is the increasing amounts and quality of equipment we procure or make, and whether Pakistan can match it. Its hard now, imagine 10 years from now.

I agree with the qualitative edge India has got. However, you should not be relying only on that.

Secondly, USAF with the most sophisticated weapons could not defeat Taliban and Taliban defeated Soviet with what? Stringer missiles?

The position you are in counts more. In an advantageous situation a jf17 CAN gun down the su30. It just depends on who is in the better position. Ideally speaking su30 will always be in a better position but at times it might find itself at the receiving end as well. Just and example don't start with Paf v Iaf :mod::mod:

May i know how much u r spending for ur defense budget from ur total budget,i think almost 20 %,and almost 4 % of ur GDP,at this desparate times when ur economy is struggling bad,and as far as i think Pakistan had a Indian centric military,so do u really think Indian military posture have no impact on ur economy,i mean ur budget is huge according to ur standards and can b effectively utilized somewhere else

Defense comes first for every nation on planet specially when it has such nice friendly neighbors. Our defense budget is fine and the shortcomings we experience in our economy is due to the highest level of corruption. Trust me even if we cut our defense budget nothing will change. Corruption needs to be eradicated so that development can take place. Look every corruption case in Pak runs in Billions not just crores.

As an Indian you will always target our defense budget as the cause of bad economy. As a Pakistani i know it is the evil corruption that needs to be cut down.
 
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And This is a professional soldier representing the army of a nation :rolleyes:

You and Gubbi, let me be clear on this for once and all.

Being a soldier myself i dont mean to disrespect soldiers, but then i do mind narrating facts.

i wish i was authorised to post some pics in this regards.

i have said this before and i am gonna say it again, and from my side it my offend anyone here.

Despite repeated 'requests' of cease fire for the mere sake that you people could collect your deads, you guys just decided not to accept the deal. As a consequence those who died for your glory kept lying under the open blue skies for weeks!!!

And (naturally) a point was reached that the smell became unbearable to such an extent that we could no longer keep our noses covered. Sorry if i sound too harsh but i dont know how to put it mildly! we responded by shifting our positions far enough so that the smell dont reach us.

You may like to ask uniformed guys of your who fought during Kargil regarding this. May be you can bring someone here so that we can discuss it properly.

i remember announcing on mega phones and asking you people to come collect your deads, you once even agreed that you would do that in the hours of darkness, but then i dont what stopped you and we just kept waiting!

See, if i can accept that a few soldiers of ours were left unclaimed latter to be taken care by indian authorities, i dont mind telling my side of the story. The fact remains a fact, whether it offends someone or not and with due respect, no one can stop me from saying out the truth!
 
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Yeah! Well put! This is easily one of the best strategies we have come up with. Just the mere mention of it drives the Pakistanis into a tizzy. What more could we ask of a doctrine which may or may not exist, which may or may not have an occasion to be used?

Quote from Sun Tzu(The Art of War)

"So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself"


Pakistan fits well into the last category.

Aaahhhh the Indians, with their generalizations about Pakistan.

Well may be you should add one thing in what Sun Tzu had to say,

If you don't know yourself, but you know your enemy, then what will happen, as this is where Pakistan fits more, as we know perfectly about Indians and their mindset, while we may not be knowing our own selves.
 
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Aaahhhh the Indians, with their generalizations about Pakistan.

Well may be you should add one thing in what Sun Tzu had to say,

If you don't know yourself, but you know your enemy, then what will happen, as this is where Pakistan fits more, as we know perfectly about Indians and their mindset, while we may not be knowing our own selves.

can you please explain what do you know about India and Indian mind set
 
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