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Kerry-Lugar Bill or an attempt to further pressurize Pakistan

Threads merged.

Vassnti,

Pleas read the various op-ed's criticizing the conditions in the bill that have been posted on this thread - they explain the reservations some Pakistanis have over it quite well.
 
:) Dont worry we still have patriotic people whom some idiots call as conspiray theorists but we know how to pull the land from under the feets of traitors.
This brings hope in the sea of hopelessness and water at the heart of the world of lot of powerful-heartlessness. I've been following keenly on Kyanyi's numbness over the long run up of stooges. But it is the time for push comes to shove, so let’s shove it all the way. If IND, ISRO want to kill all naive, pious Muslims throughout the world by using poor soldiers of U.S then let's give'em hell by ferocious Pakistani boots, what seems a long due. Time to unite, time to say enough of your damn lie and deception. Hell with your phony AQ, it only lives in damn chanakya and yamaka headquarters. IND, ISRO and IRAN are only beneficiaries of 9/11 and U.S and other Muslim countries are victims of it. So, let's help poor soldiers to go back to their relatives and victim Muslims to unite against evil schemers. Finally, let's humanity prevail over cunning murderous scheme of powerful oligarch of our age.
 
If i would be the President, I would prepare my own bill and ask US to confiscate all indian payments for nuclear bombs and send wheat instead or there would be no transit facility and hand over RAW cheif to Pakistan who was travelling with BLA terrorists or we will be hitting selective targets any where in the world used to damage Pakistan.
 
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If i would be the President, I would prepare my own bill and ask US to confiscate all indian payments for nuclear bombs or there would be no transit facilityand send wheat instead and hand over RAW cheif to Pakistan who was travelling with BLA terrorists or we will be hitting selective targets any where in the world used to damage Pakistan.

I totally agree with you. But i will first send the US ambassador packing home and then bar anyone holding dual nationality or even a green card from holding public office .:pakistan:
 
If i would be the President, I would prepare my own bill and ask US to confiscate all indian payments for nuclear bombs or there would be no transit facilityand send wheat instead and hand over RAW cheif to Pakistan who was travelling with BLA terrorists or we will be hitting selective targets any where in the world used to damage Pakistan.

Well, some people are speculating the 'President' did not really put up much of a fight against the rather intrusive conditions calling for certifying that 'civilian control exists over the defence budget, appointments of commanders etc. etc.', and in fact wanted these conditions inserted.

What business is that of the US? The only thing they should worry about is that there are no military coups and accountability on the utilization of the funds. The politico-military relationship in any country is going to be different from another, and it is for Pakistan to determine what her politico-military dynamics look like.

There is some pretty strong speculation these conditions were inserted with the complicity of Zardari, and they are also in harmony with the stated US objective of 'strengthen US allies in Pakistan'. Those allies at the moment would be the Zardari and his small coterie of advisers.

The fallout from this could however end up weakening Zardari and his government more than helping them - will be interesting to see the debate over the NRO pan out, and whether the Supreme Court entertains any petitions on the issue and how that affects the President's position.
 
WASHINGTON DIARY: Huffing and puffing —Dr Manzur Ejaz

Ultimately, after the US consultants and intermediaries have taken their cut, Pakistan will get about three to four hundred million dollars which cannot do much when the country is several billion dollars short of its obligations and needs

The saga of the Kerry-Lugar aid bill to Pakistan has become as surreal as it can get. Every concerned sane person is wondering what the fuss is about. Conditions attached to this bill are the same as in most previous such bills. Furthermore, why is such a big deal being made out of the bill when it cannot go very far in pulling Pakistan out of its ongoing economic crisis?

I asked the Washington correspondent of a major Pakistani English daily about the reason for all this huffing and puffing by the media, diplomats and the government. He put the entire blame on Pakistan’s ambassador in Washington, Mr Husain Haqqani. In his view, all the media criticism originated because of Mr Haqqani’s assurances that he has convinced US legislators to drop the conditions and pass an unconditional aid bill for Pakistan. It turned out that other than some rephrasing —for example, “India” was changed to “neighbouring countries” — the language of the bill remained the same as the original and most of the conditions still attached to it.

Such diplomatic ventures to please the bosses in Islamabad have been seen before. Most probably, the passage of the Kerry-Lugar Bill was timed with President Zardari’s visit to New York. Washington-based Pakistani diplomats always try to use such manoeuvres to show that they are delivering concrete results. In this case, it must have been planned to create the impression that President Zardari is not returning home empty handed. And the diplomats wanted to take credit.

It turned out that President Zardari has returned empty handed because the Friends of Democratic Pakistan and other such groups that Zardari tried to woo did not do much beyond issuing encouraging statements. The Kerry-Lugar Bill was already in the works and had been cleared by dozens of US Congressional committees and its passage was a foregone conclusion. Therefore, it does not have much to do with President Zardari’s visit. Furthermore, the promised aid by this piece of legislation has been sold to Pakistanis many times over by US and Pakistani diplomats.

Washington, assisted by Pakistani diplomats, has been using a clever method to mislead the Pakistani masses. One piece of aid may be repackaged many times. For example, let us say that the US announced an aid package for agriculture, health or education at the beginning of the year. On the arrival of every Pakistani top boss in Washington, a bigger US aid package will be announced without mentioning that most of the money in the new aid package was already announced months ago. Some Pakistanis cannot decipher the falsehood of these announcements. Every Pakistani diplomat, whether in Washington or Islamabad, along with the bosses, has been taking part in such misleading publicity stunts.

As for as the conditions attached to the bill, they have been same as in every other aid bill. Now, one can call them enslaving or one can declare that accepting them is like a Pakistani signing a surrender treaty. But the Pakistani economic system is a declaration of surrender in itself. Further, one feels that Pakistanis have accepted the US as a big bad father figure that is mistreating them at every step. However, no Pakistani ruler is ready to disown this father figure. So the relationship continues.

As said earlier, the condition of the Pakistani economy is a statement of surrender itself because, structurally, it cannot survive without a sugar daddy, be the US, China or someone else. Put simply, if every big institution is losing billions of dollars and the taxable don’t pay taxes, how can the country claim independence or have the guts to say no to a few billion dollars coming from somewhere at any condition?

Presently, state corporations like WAPDA are losing between five to six billion dollars annually despite higher prices and fares. The country cannot pay for electricity bills resulting in endless load shedding crippling every business and industry in the country. Pakistan has no money to service its debts or pay for the defence and security expenditures.

Given these conditions the Kerry-Lugar aid money is peanuts: it cannot even make a dent in the ongoing economic crisis in Pakistan. Ultimately, after the US consultants and intermediaries have taken their cut, Pakistan will get about three to four hundred million dollars which cannot do much when the country is several billion dollars short of its obligations and needs. Therefore, to pretend that the passage of this aid legislation was worthy of so much discussion and debate is beyond comprehension.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

================

There you go Niaz sahib, sort of seconding your views.

Privatize PIA an we save the country from almost a billion dollars in losses a year. Tighten belts for a year, pay of the circular power debt, reduce load shedding and use those goddamn IMF loans to set up permanent power plants and we can start revitalizing our industrial sector.

Not only is the US aid 'peanuts' in the overall scheme of things, the insulting and arrogant conditions attached make Pakistan nothing more than a rental state to be used and abused.

I was wavering between supporting the bill or rejecting it, and I have decided it really isn't worth Pakistan's time. I hope parliament rejects it, conditionally or otherwise, and I hope the GoP stops begging and focuses on the myriad tangible steps it can take domestically to resolve problems long term.

If there is need to 'get something' from the US and the EU, it should be greater market access, especially on reduced tariffs. For all the talk from Gates, Clinton and Obama on 'a long term commitment to Pakistan' and 'recognition of the past policies of abandonment' there has been absolutely nothing put on the table, even to work towards, that reflects a long term commitment.

Instead we get an aid bill for five years that insults us, indicts us on terrorism, and then arrogantly claims to be a sign of how much 'Pakistan is valued'. With friends like these ...

I had some respect for Gillani at least, before today. Not anymore - I had to read his statement twice, where he said that Pakistani's should not criticize the bill because it might result in aid being canceled ...

BUGGER OFF GILLANI - I hope the aid bloody well gets shoved up your and Zardari's arse on the way to the garbage bin.:angry:

I mean really, this current government has absolutely NO SHAME WHATSOEVER.
 
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Political equation rocked by Kerry-Lugar fiasco

Thursday, October 08, 2009
MQM distances itself, ANP in two minds

By Shaheen Sehbai

ISLAMABAD: The Pakistani political equation suddenly took a disturbing turn on Wednesday when differences between the civilian government and the Army high command surfaced over the Kerry-Lugar Bill and shook the national scene.

Amid fast-paced developments, which shocked the country, confusion in the government and coalition ranks was evident when Prime Minister Gilani, in a brief address to the National Assembly, offered to build a consensus between the president and the Army, implicitly admitting that things had suddenly changed.

A panic-stricken presidency went into urgent deliberations late on Wednesday night with PM Gilani, the interior and defence ministers and other main players and cronies. On the other side, parliament debated the Kerry-Lugar Bill in the backdrop of serious concerns expressed by the corps commanders at their 122nd conference in Rawalpindi earlier in the day.

Earlier, the presidency had described the criticism on the bill as an attempt to hit President Zardari. A detailed statement was issued by presidential spokesman Farhatullah Babar, reflecting this view.

The commanders, in an unusual ISPR release, took an apparently public position by officially stating their opposition to a policy issue but the sponsors and promoters of the Kerry-Lugar Bill, especially those in Washington, apparently had left no space for the GHQ as it was not taken on board and it was a matter of just hours or days when President Obama would have signed the bill into US law.

Shocked by the reaction in Pakistan, the US president also stopped short of putting his signature to the bill and waited for the outcome of the intense controversy, which has gripped Pakistan, especially on the conditions for aid on the security side.

The News had pointed out on Sept 27 that all the stakeholders were not on board regarding the important bill, which had unacceptable conditions for Pakistan and some of our negotiators had kept these conditions hidden from their own side so that the US bill might get through without any hitch. But that did not happen.

On Wednesday, the Pakistan Army took a strong and clear position against the bill, parliament started a discussion but abruptly ended it with a quorum call and the presidency went into panic sessions to chalk out a strategy as the entire scheme of the bill sponsors had turned topsy-turvy, threatening the political edifice.

Just hours before the Pakistan Army stated its position, both President Zardari and Prime Minister Gilani had strongly supported the US aid bill, asking members of parliament to back it.

The first strike against this government position was made by MQM chief Altaf Hussain who stopped short of expressing support and said he had reservations over the bill. Then came the massive blow from the Army chief who told the visiting US military commanders on Tuesday that conditions in the Kerry-Lugar Bill were not acceptable, as reported in The News.

The corps commanders’ conference officially put the stamp of rejection when the ISPR said this about the bill:
“The Kerry-Lugar Bill also came under discussion during the conference. The forum expressed serious concern regarding clauses impacting on the national security. A formal input is being provided to the government.”

The Army tried to put a comforting glaze on its position when the announcement said: “However, in the considered view of the forum, it is parliament, that represents the will of the people of Pakistan, which would deliberate on the issue, enabling the government to develop a national response.”

But coming after the categorical positions taken both by the president and the PM to support the bill, asking the government to develop a “national response” meant that the Army was asking for a major review in line with the wishes of the commanders and the people of Pakistan.

The ISPR press release, quoting the COAS, also made a profound statement: “Pakistan is a sovereign state and has all the rights to analyse and respond to the threat in accordance with her own national interests.” Analysts took this as a rebuff to the Kerry-Lugar Bill, and its sponsors, who had been persistently trying to convince everyone that this bill was in the national interest and should be accepted as such.

The opposition leader in the National Assembly attacked the bill in gusto as he and Punjab Chief Minister Shahbaz Sharif had recently met the Army chief quietly and were reportedly conveyed the message that the PML-N was not coming out as it should against the Zardari-led administration because serious national damage was being done.

The secret meeting of these PML-N leaders has now been almost confessed but it has also led to serious apprehensions in the PPP camp about the intentions of the Pakistan Army against the government.

Coalition partner MQM has already distanced itself from the bill while the ANP was in two minds and Afrasiab Khattak said a three-member committee had been set up by President Zardari and the ANP would announce its position within 48 hours. But sources said the position would not be what the adamant PPP co-chairman is asking for.

Whatever the outcome of the storm created by the Kerry-Lugar Bill and the divisions within the political and military establishment would be, sources said that a major shake up in the Foreign Ministry and its foreign set-ups was inevitable because of the failure in protecting national interests.

“When the Army high command, the entire opposition, the media and the people say that our interests have not been safeguarded, some heads have to roll,” a Foreign Ministry official said.

Political equation rocked by Kerry-Lugar fiasco

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If the ANP comes out against the Bill, or some of the conditions in it, that means the PPP stands completely isolated, with both major allies, MQM and ANP, not on board.
 
Well, some people are speculating the 'President' did not really put up much of a fight against the rather intrusive conditions calling for certifying that 'civilian control exists over the defence budget, appointments of commanders etc. etc.', and in fact wanted these conditions inserted.

What business is that of the US? The only thing they should worry about is that there are no military coups and accountability on the utilization of the funds. The politico-military relationship in any country is going to be different from another, and it is for Pakistan to determine what her politico-military dynamics look like.

There is some pretty strong speculation these conditions were inserted with the complicity of Zardari, and they are also in harmony with the stated US objective of 'strengthen US allies in Pakistan'. Those allies at the moment would be the Zardari and his small coterie of advisers.

The fallout from this could however end up weakening Zardari and his government more than helping them - will be interesting to see the debate over the NRO pan out, and whether the Supreme Court entertains any petitions on the issue and how that affects the President's position.

This is known all along PPP and ANP work for indian interest.
In past Zardari has tried to take many anti Pakistan descions but due to public awarness he failed to do so .
1- Handing over Ahmed Shuja Pasha to india
2- Trying to buy inferior French submarines over U boats.
3- Appointment of less deserving candidates as cheif of Navy and Airforce. etc. etc.
With reference to fall out, i believe damage to Zardari is already done.
Other fall out from this could effect indo US nuclear wepons deal.
 
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Army, people, parliament on one side, president on the other

Thursday, October 08, 2009
Press Gallery

By Mohammad Malick

ISLAMABAD: Opening the House debate on the controversial Kerry-Lugar Aid Bill, leader of the Opposition Ch Nisar rightly described it as a defining moment in our history. But what was even more defining was the unmistakable dividing line drawn in the sand of our political wasteland, with the President hunkering on one side and the opposition, the army, and the popular will on the other. And while the prime minister went through the motions of appearing to be standing in the middle, it was clear which side his shadow fell when he deftly moved away from owning the ongoing presidency mantra of this bill being the best thing to happen to Pakistan by asking Parliament to take all the time in the world to deliberate upon this aid package and to decide the ultimate course of action, which he promised would be a “consensus decision”. Of course, not to forget his opening emphasis upon having received the bluntly harsh opinion of the military establishment and assuring the house, aware that Rawalpindi too was all ears, that the present military lot at least was pro-democracy and that he would ensure that all national (read: khaki) decisions will be taken here in Pakistan and not in Washington. To paraphrase him, he said it’s our country, our Parliament, our army. Could the presidency say the last part with as much confidence, one wonders.

The prevalent mood was reminiscent of the same that was there in March, with the presidency standing on one side on the judges restoration issue while everybody else, including the people, media, political parties and the military establishment (which saw the light even if a little late), stood on the other. The net result of that confrontation is for all to see. Can the presidency afford another confrontation of no lesser proportions only a few months down the road, is a question that even a 5th grader can answer.

The deliberate isolation of the president and his team was also evident by the carefully chosen words of Ch Nisar, who repeatedly assured that PML-N would never become party to any unconstitutional derailing of the democratic dispensation, but he was clearly at pains to restrict his promise to Parliament, and the prime minister. (A gesture reciprocated by the PM when he thanked him for saying so). The president wasn’t mentioned even once except indirectly and even then in hardly a complimentary manner. In fact, even the PM made no reference to his party chairperson. As expected, Nisar spoke eloquently while he dissected the draconian ramifications of many clauses of the bill specially those pertaining to our nuclear programme, institutional independence, military setup and operations, and our regional foreign policy parameters.

But even his suave mannerism could not hide the fact that the PML-N too was clearly playing its American cards very carefully. While there was this unrelenting sharp criticism of the poor document, amazingly its authors were not censured at all. He rather over did it a bit when he repeatedly exonerated the Americans from all evil on the flimsy ground of them serving their own national interest while blaming it all on the Pakistani negotiators. A government that criminally exploits the weaknesses of a weaker people is equally guilty my dear sir, specially so while claiming to be a friend. But then, there is also talk about possible mid-term elections, with certain quarters reportedly having assured Nawaz Sharif of his future prospects as long he played within the system and appreciated the necessities imposed on certain foreign powers by the peculiar geo-political realities of our region. Isn’t it a bit strange that Mian Sahib has taken a mysterious leave of absence from Pakistan at a time when categorical stances need to be taken by top leaders? On a second thought, this very need of clear positions may well be the cause of this unexplained absence. Strange are the ways of politics.

Isolation of the president was further completed with the military bosses too reposing their faith in Parliament representing popular will. As one PPP minister of state remarked while sipping the soapy cafeteria tea that nobody had even talked about the supreme commander the entire evening. The gentleman had even obtained a copy of the ISPR press release which interestingly had been faxed from an ‘undisclosed’ number and while we shall all be reading it in detail in today’s newspapers what I found interesting was that he had highlighted the following part,”..... Pakistan is a sovereign state and has all the rights to analyse and respond to the threat in accordance with her own national interests. Kerry Lugar bill also came under discussion during the conference. The forum expressed serious concern regarding clauses impacting on National Security. A formal input is being provided to the government. However, in the considered view of the forum, it is Parliament that represents the will of the people of Pakistan, which would deliberate on the issue, enabling the government to develop a national response.” The word parliament, in fact, had been underlined by him. Later, he could be seen showing the same fax to quite a few members in the House, and every time he did, you could see the heads nodding in agreement. But try telling that to our friends in the presidency.

Mercifully, the sensitivity of the issue and its explosive political fallout does not appear to have been completely lost on the presidency as at the time of the writing of these lines, a serious huddle involving the president, prime minister, interior minister and a select few was already under way in the presidency. But then, similar huddles had also taken place in March as well and nothing had materialised till a helping nudge of an officer’s baton had come into play. What will it be this time around: desperately needed political sagacity? or a mighty shove? because as far certain circles are concerned, time for a gentle nudge is long past.

Army, people, parliament on one side, president on the other

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With a major offensive in Waziristan being planned, that will likely be protracted and expensive, in blood and treasure, the Army can ill afford to not side with the public on this issue, lest it come across as a lackey of the US and get caught up in the ant-US/anti-Zardari sentiment.

Pakistan cannot afford to allow the tide against the Taliban to turn, and the public support for the military to wane - both would be disastrous shifts in terms of defeating the Taliban threat, and we have come too far in this war, and too close to victory to let all that hard work and sacrifice be squandered, all for the sake of a few dollars.

In fact, I believe some of the religious parties are already trying to connect the K-L Bill with the impending operation in Waziristan.
 
Mr Zardari says "KLB critical for people of Pakistan" source express news.

Mr Zardari KLB might be acceptable for you personaly but not to the people of Pakistan. Its just you against the people.
Enough is enough we need to put an end to this non sence i.e KLB and ask Mr Obama to accept Pakistans aid bill to US. Some salient points are as follows:
1. Mr Zaradri and the cabanit be imported to US and appointed as aides to Mr Obama.
2. Mr Haqqani be appointed aid to Mr Mc Mohan.
3. Mr Rehman Malik appointed as head of US homeland security.
:pakistan:
 
Threads merged.

Vassnti,

Pleas read the various op-ed's criticizing the conditions in the bill that have been posted on this thread - they explain the reservations some Pakistanis have over it quite well.

Thank you, i did miss some important points though with respect to both your seniority and position i fail to see how things have reached the level of outrage that they have.

Yes some clauses stink of Indian interferance but after articles like the one showing previous US "anti terrorisim" aid had been used to buy equipment to face India i can see why.

I can see how interference in the military and inteligence services is insulting, especially after the purge of Pro taliban members.

I do see how badly things were handled diplomatically both sides, in that the Pakisant people were told there were no strings and theUS has been arogant in the wording and nature of the conditions.

What i fail to understand is how if the bill is unnaceptable the options do not seem to be either a polite no or renegotiation but instead seems to have pushed Pakistan to the unstable point where the goverment may fall, either to the opposition or the military over what people have said is in reality a fairly unimportant aid bill.

Perhaps you simply have to be Pakisanti to understand the detail and from a differant upbringing and country i am not equiped to understand.

Still thank you for the many posts on the topic and you atempt to make it understandable.
 
What i fail to understand is how if the bill is unnaceptable the options do not seem to be either a polite no or renegotiation but instead seems to have pushed Pakistan to the unstable point where the goverment may fall, either to the opposition or the military over what people have said is in reality a fairly unimportant aid bill.

Perhaps you simply have to be Pakisanti to understand the detail and from a differant upbringing and country i am not equiped to understand.

Still thank you for the many posts on the topic and you atempt to make it understandable.


If you like the bill so much you can ask the New Zealand Government to sign the bill for themselves.

As far as Pakistan is concerned it is a completely No Go Zone.:pakistan:
 
Thank you, i did miss some important points though with respect to both your seniority and position i fail to see how things have reached the level of outrage that they have.

Yes some clauses stink of Indian interferance but after articles like the one showing previous US "anti terrorisim" aid had been used to buy equipment to face India i can see why.

I can see how interference in the military and inteligence services is insulting, especially after the purge of Pro taliban members.

I do see how badly things were handled diplomatically both sides, in that the Pakisant people were told there were no strings and theUS has been arogant in the wording and nature of the conditions.

What i fail to understand is how if the bill is unnaceptable the options do not seem to be either a polite no or renegotiation but instead seems to have pushed Pakistan to the unstable point where the goverment may fall, either to the opposition or the military over what people have said is in reality a fairly unimportant aid bill.

Perhaps you simply have to be Pakisanti to understand the detail and from a differant upbringing and country i am not equiped to understand.

Still thank you for the many posts on the topic and you atempt to make it understandable.

I don't believe the opposition is gunning for the government to fall, at least not publicly so, with the PML-N leadership stating during the parliamentary debate that it did not want to destabilize the government.

Both the PML-N and PML-Q have in fact stated that they are willing to openly accept the bill if some of the controversial conditions are removed, which is really what the opposition boils down to.

Barring accountability on how aid is utilized and a 'no military coups' condition, there is absolutely no need for any of the other language.

Also, I disagree on your point about how military aid was in the past diverted - that issue has been extensively discussed here: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/30821-where-did-10-billion-us-aid-pakistan-go.html
 
If you like the bill so much you can ask the New Zealand Government to sign the bill for themselves.

As far as Pakistan is concerned it is a completely No Go Zone.:pakistan:

If you read a little more carefully i didnt say it was a good bill, i did point out some of the things i thoughts were flaws, it just doesnt seem to be important enough to tear a country appart over.

As for the US giving NZ 7.5 billion in aid :rofl::rofl::rofl: we have enough trouble just trying to sell them sheep.
It took 25 years for them to forgive us for telling them to piss off last time.
 
If you read a little more carefully i didnt say it was a good bill, i did point out some of the things i thoughts were flaws, it just doesnt seem to be important enough to tear a country appart over.

As for the US giving NZ 7.5 billion in aid :rofl::rofl::rofl: we have enough trouble just trying to sell them sheep.
It took 25 years for them to forgive us for telling them to piss off last time.

Good for you. We only ask the Almighty to forgive us. But we tell the US to piss off all the time mate.:pakistan:
 
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