Kaveri engine will not power Tejas MK-1 nor AMCA

[Dillinger]

You said this:

Before you said this in the following:



Do you know where do you stand?

With you its argumentum ad logicam type.

Critical engine tech does not equal know everything about an engine possible. A country like Iran acquiring simple maraging steel formulations from Ukraine is and has always been considered critical missile tech so is a rolling frame machine transferred from China to Pakistan, doesn't mean that the source has been churning missiles left right and center.

What you fail to understand is the complexity of gas turbine engine development, nor are you cognizant of the engineering involved as evidenced by your inability to answer the technical questions posed by me.

Should India have gone to the Ukrainians? Yes we should have. Do the Ukrainians have what we needed? Yes they did. What did they have? Production engineering expertise gleaned from the Soviets, detailed data on precursors of present day TBCs which would have cut our own YSZ research by near a decade. These things matter to us and to nations like China, for Ukraine it is simply knowledge which they do not have the capacity to use and for the western nations its knowledge that they already possess and deem to valuable to part with.

The problem occurs when you cannot even comprehend how big a deal it is if we can cut down on fundamental R&D lead times for materials research. How important it is if we can just take a decade long leap. Till the day you understand the details involved and the science behind it you will continue to ponder as to what exactly any could offer us.

China is a communist country and u don't expect reuters to know shit about their military.

Whats out has their nod,other stuff no one will ever know.

And for a change do some research before harping on the same stupid assertions.
And lasty don't try to be cocky here,its a defence forum.contribute or shut up

Actually they can be surprisingly forthright about certain things. They just do not like to publicize under development projects till they have something to actually show for it, something we could learn from them.

And there in lies the difference, where you were as obdurate you did your research on the technical angle, as in the hardcore technology involved instead of generic statements from some source or another.

As for the babus. Till we get to the point where we have an integrated MOD and CDS with uniforms working along with, under and above the babus things will continue to stay the same. Till non lapse-able funding which is considered planned expenditure (both R&D and military acquisition expenditure are not treated as planned expenditures currently by the GOI) is provided for R&D things will not get better. Till a strategic review is not generated to pin point planned trajectories and the way to go about it things will not change.


@Oscar Care to contribute.

The colonial mindset continues here too, even in the military, in the very culture. While civilian control of our military is to be lauded and despite wanting to suppress reports from my own observations it seems that certain lessons have been learned and corrective measures undertaken, the gap between what is and what is required still remains significant.

Although I've always wondered, when it comes to lessons learnt why does the myth that the surrender in 71 was cowardly continue..shouldn't the albatross be hung around whoever was leading the battle in the west given that the defence of East Pakistan lay in the west as per then military wisdom?

 

[he-man]

Critical engine tech does not equal know everything about an engine possible. A country like Iran acquiring simple maraging steel formulations from Ukraine is and has always been considered critical missile tech so is a rolling frame machine transferred from China to Pakistan, doesn't mean that the source has been churning missiles left right and center.

What you fail to understand is the complexity of gas turbine engine development, nor are you cognizant of the engineering involved as evidenced by your inability to answer the technical questions posed by me.

Should India have gone to the Ukrainians? Yes we should have. Do the Ukrainians have what we needed? Yes they did. What did they have? Production engineering expertise gleaned from the Soviets, detailed data on precursors of present day TBCs which would have cut our own YSZ research by near a decade. These things matter to us and to nations like China, for Ukraine it is simply knowledge which they do not have the capacity to use and for the western nations its knowledge that they already possess and deem to valuable to part with.

The problem occurs when you cannot even comprehend how big a deal it is if we can cut down on fundamental R&D lead times for materials research. How important it is if we can just take a decade long leap. Till the day you understand the details involved and the science behind it you will continue to ponder as to what exactly any could offer us.



Actually they can be surprisingly forthright about certain things. They just do not like to publicize under development projects till they have something to actually show for it, something we could learn from them.

And there in lies the difference, where you were as obdurate you did your research on the technical angle, as in the hardcore technology involved instead of generic statements from some source or another.

As for the babus. Till we get to the point where we have an integrated MOD and CDS with uniforms working along with, under and above the babus things will continue to stay the same. Till non lapse-able funding which is considered planned expenditure (both R&D and military acquisition expenditure are not treated as planned expenditures currently by the GOI) is provided for R&D things will not get better. Till a strategic review is not generated to pin point planned trajectories and the way to go about it things will not change.

The point I was making is that china may be nearer to an al-31f copy or some ws-series than we perceive it to be.
Thats entirely possible.

As for babudom I guess it may take decades for the change u want

 

[Dillinger]

The point I was making is that china may be nearer to an al-31f copy or some ws-series than we perceive it to be.
Thats entirely possible.

As for babudom I guess it may take decades for the change u want

Not decades, a hard nosed government willing to bite the bullet.

 

[narcon]

China is a communist country and u don't expect reuters to know shit about their military. Whats out has their nod,other stuff no one will ever know..

China is working to reach the stars. Would you believe it?
Read the Russel's teapot theory, then come forward and argue diligently.

And for a change do some research before harping on the same stupid assertions.

Above is fit for you.

And lasty don't try to be cocky here,its a defence forum.contribute or shut up

Do the same, or get lost.
Don't nag forumites here with your obnoxious attitude/
Comprediste amigo?
O quere que te doy algo?

 

[narcon]

Critical engine tech does not equal know everything about an engine possible.

So why would India go to Ukraine?
Kaveri has too many problems man.
In a nutshell its not flight worthy and it is fookin certified by CAG.
Thats why GOI/DRDO went for shopping like SNECMA/Safran who refused.
When you have a primary source like Russia, which had all this. Why go to Ukraine that might have peanuts, which are not worthy for GOI/DRDO/Kaveri flight worthiness certifications.

A country like Iran acquiring simple maraging steel formulations from Ukraine is and has always been considered critical missile tech so is a rolling frame machine transferred from China to Pakistan, doesn't mean that the source has been churning missiles left right and center.

Its one of the component for missile building.
Not all.
What about missile engines?
stage separation technology?
And various minor yet important scientific inputs that make the missile what it is.
Maraging steel is not missile itself.
As I said before, your dialogue here is full of fallacy.
Your analogy is not even pertinent to the subject a la Maraging steel vs Missile. As if by having maraging steel, countries can make missiles...

 

[narcon]

What you fail to understand is the complexity of gas turbine engine development, nor are you cognizant of the engineering involved as evidenced by your inability to answer the technical questions posed by me.

The matter is simple. But you want to make it complex by digressing the core issue = Ukraine
What has technical counter questions to do with this?
CAG has the last word on Kaveri's anomalies.
And this was listed for you.
So why unnecessary counter questions?
What you want to prove here?
That you are a metallurgy professor?
Strawman's argument is this from your side.
Get a life man...

 

[Dillinger]

@narcon You're going to have to learn how to quote a poster in the proper manner, so that they actually get the notification from the forum.

I see. So I am dealing with a person who has not an iota of knowledge on the technical aspects.

CAG listed the problems and I listed the technical challenges which have caused that problem. Not a particularly bright fellow are you.

 

[narcon]

Production engineering expertise gleaned from the Soviets, detailed data on precursors of present day TBCs which would have cut our own YSZ research by near a decade.

Give concrete proof and don't rely on conjecture.
Read Russel's teapot theory and come back.
Onus is on you to prove against your claim of Ukraine jet engine prowess and not me.
Russell's teapot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

CAG listed the problems and I listed the technical challenges which have caused that problem

Lol.
CAG is a constitutional body of GOI with unlimited funds/time/resources/technical people.
You are nowhere - Read - nowhere close to match their finding.
Mind you I never said beat, I said match.
You have no international knowledge of this weapons bazar.
stay in your shell on this. You conjecture wise dude.

 

[IND151]

@narcon You're going to have to learn how to quote a poster in the proper manner, so that they actually get the notification from the forum.

I see. So I am dealing with a person who has not an iota of knowledge on the technical aspects.

CAG listed the problems and I listed the technical challenges which have caused that problem. Not a particularly bright fellow are you.

Why you are replying hem? Just stop.

Give concrete proof and don't rely on conjecture.
Read Russel's teapot theory and come back.
Onus is on you to prove against your claim of Ukraine jet engine prowess and not me.
Russell's teapot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Lol.
CAG is a constitutional body of GOI with unlimited funds/time/resources/technical people.
You are nowhere - Read - nowhere close to match their finding.
Mind you I never said beat, I said match.
You have no international knowledge of this weapons bazar.
stay in your shell on this. You conjecture wise dude.

Kaveri engine will not power Tejas MK-1 nor AMCA | Page 9

I will not reply you after this.

 

[narcon]

@Dillinger
Do you know how they make single crystal blades?
Are they frozen or heated in the process?
I am all ears...

Kaveri engine will not power Tejas MK-1 nor AMCA | Page 9

I will not reply you after this.

Lol everyone knows it/
What is the big deal here?

@Dillinger
Do you know how they make single crystal blades?
Are they frozen or heated in the process?
I am all ears...

The fellow is busy googling
Lol

 

[sancho]

The positive side of the news is that AMCA porject is still alive

For whom? ADA and DRDO, that's it. IAF will play it cool and watch the developments with Rafale and FGFA already in their pockets and all roles, or capabilities covered by them. If AMCA works out, they will take some, if not they won't, as simple as that.
IN on the other side would need it badly, but thanks to zero learning curve in ADA and DRDO, they will once again have to wait for a fighter to be developed for the airforce and then have to see how they can navalise it to their requirements.
This project is dead from the start, because it is not followed with any bit of logical sense, nor by actually taking the forces into the project to commit them directly to it and we are seeing this BS for years now.

@sandy_3126

IF HAL is anything close to be as capable as you believe, or has the guts to compete ADA and DRDO for once, they should propose an own concept based on the FGFA! They can only win, because they can benefit fully from the Russian work, from commonality to make the project cheaper and faster to develop and could even bind Dassault to it through the Rafale deal, for the direct navalisation. All HAL has to do is, to get IN on their side to convince MoD for a competition.

 

[Dillinger]

@Dillinger
Do you know how they make single crystal blades?
Are they frozen or heated in the process?
I am all ears...



Lol everyone knows it/
What is the big deal here?



The fellow is busy googling
Lol

That would depend on the manufacturing process.

Are we referring to the crystal growth process in a Brigdman furnace or are we going with the improved Al2o3 ceramic mold process which gets rid of the expensive casting furnace required in the first process. Child, you are dealing with the wrong sort of person here. I can provide everything required up to the standard thermal efficiency equations using said equations to illustrate how the aforementioned blade improves thermal efficiency in the Brayton cycle. Its too early for you to be trying to test me.

For whom? ADA and DRDO, that's it. IAF will play it cool and watch the developments with Rafale and FGFA already in their pockets and all roles, or capabilities covered by them. If AMCA works out, they will take some, if not they won't, as simple as that.
IN on the other side would need it badly, but thanks to zero learning curve in ADA and DRDO, they will once again have to wait for a fighter to be developed for the airforce and then have to see how they can navalise it to their requirements.
This project is dead from the start, because it is not followed with any bit of logical sense, nor by actually taking the forces into the project to commit them directly to it and we are seeing this BS for years now.

@sandy_3126

IF HAL is anything close to be as capable as you believe, or has the guts to compete ADA and DRDO for once, they should propose an own concept based on the FGFA! They can only win, because they can benefit fully from the Russian work, from commonality to make the project cheaper and faster to develop and could even bind Dassault to it through the Rafale deal, for the direct navalisation. All HAL has to do is, to get IN on their side to convince MoD for a competition.

No interest from the IAF yet as far as the AMCA is concerned.

 

[narcon]

@Dillinger
Do you know how they make single crystal blades?
Are they frozen or heated in the process?
I am all ears...
The fellow is busy googling
Lol

All hat no cattle.
Lol

 

[Dillinger]

All hat no cattle.
Lol

If you knew that a Bridgman furnace has one area kept over the melting point of the super alloy and another which is kept below it then the answer would be quite obvious. You process it first through high temp in molten form and then slowly lower it to the other zone, the alloy will solidify from the base up at the rate of a few inches per hour.

As I said, its too early for you to test me child.

 

[narcon]

That would depend on the manufacturing process.

It means he does not know how the fan blades (SCB) go into the process. Still walks tall on these issues, and in the process, starts to ridicule fellow forumites by portraying himself as omniscient.
Lol

My friend, this is the part of turbine component okey?

If you knew that a Bridgman furnace has one area kept over the melting point of the super alloy and another which is kept below it then the answer would be quite obvious

And what is that answer in one or the other way as I posted viz;

@@Dillinger
Do you know how they make single crystal blades?
Are they frozen or heated in the process?
I am all ears...

Are they heated or frozen?
Reply dude....

Do not take refuge in a word jugglery.
Talk straight.
Say it..