Kashmiri Pundit : What was done to them by Kashmiri Muslims

[dabong1]

That's fair enough.
The Kashmiri Muslims have a right to think whatever they desire, I would say that the Indian forces in Kashmir were rather forced in by situations like what happened in 48, 89 or Kargil

In the real sense the kashmiri uprising began in the late 80s early 90s and that also without pakistani help which only came after in the mid 90s.
In a sense the kashmiris where also "forced" into taking arms once the indian security forces started opening fire on demonstrators and quashing all dissent.
Am pretty sure the indians would have done well under a vote for the kashmiris before the 80s but with the recent decades its gone a bit sour.

or the continuous violence and insurgency that pervades in Kashmir I also believe that Kashmir is going back to normal and there is serious rethink of withdrawal of AFSPA and the Indian troops from Kashmir

India missed the boat on this.....instead of building a fences-bunkers along the LOC during the last decade when the pakistani govt had stopped the majority of fighters crossing over and showing true intent to find a amicable solution you should have reproached in like wise gestures.If that had happened the pakistani govt would have no choice but to back away from a military soultion.

- but the call from the TTP, LET and other militant organizations for renewal of violence and terror in Kashmir and the increase in cross border infiltration and a possible repeat of what happened in 89 after the Soviets quit from Afghanistan may repeat itself again in the near future and we will see a large influx of Jihaadi's pushed into Kashmir by our neighbors. Kashmiri's will be without protection and their protection falls on the shoulders of Indian troops - so I don't predict any change in the security situation of Kashmir in the near future.

I said the same thing a few years ago to some indian members.....once the US leaves what to do think is going to happen if not the same as before( quote your above post).
I remember clearly indian statements that if pakistan stops LOC crossing by kashmiri fighters india was willing to reduce the army in kashmir and withdraw draconian laws.........violence in kashmir has been very low compared to the previous decades but the indan govt di not make a single major concession but new demand.

As I stated in my earlier post, the sensitivities of Indian Muslims should also be factored in the context of Kashmiri Muslims demanding a separation just because they are a Muslim majority, any insensitivity will only alienate the Indian Muslim further.

As i said before it very disingenuous to compare the muslims of india who through there own free will and choice stayed in india to that of the kashmiris who never got a choice.

 

[dabong1]

Kashmiri land was acceded to India so India definitely has a right to it, no one can deny that,

If where going off the yardstick that a single man(maharaja) can choose who his nation goes to then you must also accept that Junagrah should be part of paskistan......it had a muslim ruler with a majority hindu population who joined pakistan but the indian army invaded.

Kashmiri rulers never acceded to Pakistan ever,

Why would a hindu ruler want to join a muslim nation?....The muslim in that nation would want to join the same way as in jundagarh the hindu population wanted to join india .
The logic of partition says that the majority muslim areas should form pakistan and the hindu regions as india.

and as for the sensitivities of Muslims - then all Indian Muslims all 175 million of them are asking the Kashmiri's to change their mindset.

Well we say to the indian muslims you got a choice we didnt and we want it.

I know that they are thinking on the lines of autonomy and an open border and not a complete break from India and Pakistan.

Quote Originally Posted by arp2041 View Post
Though Kashmir with India or Pakistan is always a debatable topic but Independent Kashmir is the worst suggestion ever. Kashmir can never be a truly Independent & prosperous country when four Giants - China, Former USSR, India & Pakistan will be it's neighbors, look at Nepal & Bhutan for eg., these two countries are finding them pissed-up by being crushed b/w two Asian Giants - China & India. Thus, it will certainly become a client state of either of the 4 countries or all 4 will have there respective zones of influence.
Well you could have joint pak-ind control of Kashmir.

1The govt of JK sends members to sit in both pak-ind national govts thus remaining a part of both while being a "semi independent" country.
2.Rotate the presidency of kashmir between the pak-ind presidents.
3.All three flags are flown on all govt buildings.
4 The pak-ind rupee are used in kashmir


Quote Originally Posted by arp2041 View Post
+ Majority of Infrastructure projects in Kashmir are funded by India & Pakistan as Kashmir's revenue itself is insufficient to fulfill this basic requirement.
At the moment that might be true but with a solution for kashmir there would be peace and naturally then prosperity.


Quote Originally Posted by arp2041 View Post
+ Majority of revenue of Kashmir comes from tourists which travel there from India & Pakistan, there revenue will certainly decrease if now the people from these two countries will have to take VISA for it.
1.There should be total free movement of goods and people between pak-ind-kash.
2.With peace the tourist industry would grow very quickly with kashmir being opened up not just to pakistan and india but to the chinese and the west.
3 There are enough natural resources with the dams making electricity and the mineral wealth on top of tourism for kashmir to survive.


Quote Originally Posted by arp2041 View Post
+ Though people from the Valley have mixed opinions as to the status of Kashmir but people of Jammu & Ladakh are more than in favor of being part of India, so much so that they want a separate state from the valley, which is more integrated to Union of India, India can't be seen blind to there aspirations.
If thats what it takes to have peace then let Jammu & Ladakh join india.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/230599-our-side-loc-3.html#ixzz2MrGvtwKi

 

[Black Widow]

If where going off the yardstick that a single man(maharaja) can choose who his nation goes to then you must also accept that Junagrah should be part of paskistan......it had a muslim ruler with a majority hindu population who joined pakistan but the indian army invaded.



Why would a hindu ruler want to join a muslim nation?....The muslim in that nation would want to join the same way as in jundagarh the hindu population wanted to join india .
The logic of partition says that the majority muslim areas should form pakistan and the hindu regions as india.



Well we say to the indian muslims you got a choice we didnt and we want it.

U can tell entire Pak sponser story, But the question remain unanswered....

Why KPs , who were son of Kashmirs were threaten/tortured/killed/raped???

U Pakistani had issue with Indian, not Kashmri right??? then why Julm on KPs???

Why there ladies were threaten to rape?? Why they were threaten of conversion??

 

[Developereo]

U can tell entire Pak sponser story, But the question remain unanswered....

Why KPs , who were son of Kashmirs were threaten/tortured/killed/raped???

U Pakistani had issue with Indian, not Kashmri right??? then why Julm on KPs???

Why there ladies were threaten to rape?? Why they were threaten of conversion??

The answer is straightforward when one looks at the issue dispassionately.

You have two groups -- Muslim and Hindu -- in a territory which also holds an occupying force. At least one side considers it an occupying force, while the other considers them local soldiers. This creates mistrust between the two communities, where the Muslims get tortured, raped and harassed by the Indian Army and the Hindus are believed to be collaborating with that same Army.

The communities were divided by mutual mistrust due to the presence and actions of the Indian Army.

 

[dabong1]

The Military was sent after 1989 unrest when KPs were forced to leave.

By "unrest" you mean the Gawakadal massacre.

After 1965 and Before 1989 military was at borders at their posts.

The indian army has been in kashmir since 47.......how many hindu kashmiris where forced out before 89?

 

[Screambowl]

By "unrest" you mean the Gawakadal massacre.




The indian army has been in kashmir since 47.......how many hindu kashmiris where forced out before 89?

Indian army was at LOC only before 1989. But after the insurgency in Kashmir started Army had to do operations when things went out of control.

 

[Black Widow]

The answer is straightforward when one looks at the issue dispassionately.

You have two groups -- Muslim and Hindu -- in a territory which also holds an occupying force. At least one side considers it an occupying force, while the other considers them local soldiers. This creates mistrust between the two communities, where the Muslims get tortured, raped and harassed by the Indian Army and the Hindus are believed to be collaborating with that same Army.

The communities were divided by mutual mistrust due to the presence and actions of the Indian Army.

Kashmir had no Hindu Muslim issue, Both party were living happily, what provoke suddenly that Mulla Radio (Madarsa) started announcing rape of Hindu women??? Did KPs hurt Muslalmaan??

"Collaborating, Aagent, Kaffir, Traitor" are famous quote of Pakistanis, You ppl have branded many intellectual as CIA agent. One you doesn't agree with your ideology become traitor, nice logic..

There were no Army in Kashmir till Afghan war ended. Indian army came much later.

Don't spread your misinformation here. A true Muslim don't tell lie.. so stop misinformation. KPs didn't hurt Muslims. There is no recorded facts neither any Kashmiri Muslim ever claimed so.

 

[dabong1]

I respect soldiers of any country so i wouldn't call names to any army either Indian or Pakistani or any others.

All the professional armies in the world are paid but there is a difference between professional and 'soldiers of fortune'kind.

The point you made before all hinged on being paid,once it was pointed out to you that indian soliders dont fight for free you you want to change the bar.
A solider of fortune will fight anybody and anywhere for money ,the freedom fighters dont .
If its the uniform that they dont wear that bothers you so much then they follow a proud tradition.The american "patriots" or "rebels" as the british called them had no uniform or the french resistance.

The second are nothing but rabid dogs.

Well then i have to answer back in similar language that the indian army in kashmir are nothing more then "paid rabid dogs".

I think i am flexible on Kashmir or for that matter any Indian till the topic is not its secession from us.

I am also flexible when it comes to kashmir just as long as kashmir is set free from india.

PLEASE ALL INDIAN MEMEBERS DO NOT GET ON MY BACK FOR THE RABID DOG COMMENT......I HAVE SAID ENOUGHT TIMES TO indushek NOT TO USE THE PHRASE BUT HIS ADAMANT SO I HAVE TO DO LIKEWISE.

 

[KS]

All said and done, anyone entering the LoC without a valid Indian visa will be shot.

Whether they die as a rabid dog or as a glorious mujaheddin is just a matter of semantics. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Black Widow]

The indian army has been in kashmir since 47.......how many hindu kashmiris where forced out before 89?

Can you use your mind??? Don't you know any difference btwn Army in barrack/border or Army on roads?? Offcourse how can you, from a country where Army always control civilians what else can be expected...

Those all are secondary, Question remain same, Why KPs were killed/raped/tortured?? Why Mulla Radio threat to rape there daughter???

How much share KPs have in Gilgit Baltistan?? KPs too need seperate country if Kashmir become independent. At least 50% of KashmirVally+GilgitBaltistan should be given to KPs...

 

[dabong1]

Kashmir had no Hindu Muslim issue, Both party were living happily, what provoke suddenly that Mulla Radio (Madarsa) started announcing rape of Hindu women???

Good old indian propaganda... "Mulla Radio (Madarsa) started announcing rape of Hindu women".......you rigged the elections in kashmir and then shoot dead unarmed protesters that led to the uprising which opened a door for pakistan who wanted payback for bangladesh.
Its of you all making.

Did KPs hurt Muslalmaan??

Well they can hurt the muslims in kashmir as much as the muslims can hurt the hindus in gujrat.

"Collaborating, Aagent, Kaffir, Traitor" are famous quote of Pakistanis, You ppl have branded many intellectual as CIA agent. One you doesn't agree with your ideology become traitor, nice logic..

What do you indians call arundhati roy

There were no Army in Kashmir till Afghan war ended. Indian army came much later.

So in 47-65 there was no indian army in kashmir........who where the pakistans fighting then?

Don't spread your misinformation here. A true Muslim don't tell lie.. so stop misinformation. KPs didn't hurt Muslims. There is no recorded facts neither any Kashmiri Muslim ever claimed so.

The kashmiri hindus are bound to side with there indian brethen...its only natural.

 

[illusion8]

In the real sense the kashmiri uprising began in the late 80s early 90s and that also without pakistani help which only came after in the mid 90s.
In a sense the kashmiris where also "forced" into taking arms once the indian security forces started opening fire on demonstrators and quashing all dissent.
Am pretty sure the indians would have done well under a vote for the kashmiris before the 80s but with the recent decades its gone a bit sour.

Pakistani's were interfering right from 47, but militarily and some mujahideens, it was only after they mastered infiltration and terrorism techniques during the Afghan war - did they start sending terrorists across the border and that started in 89, they also begun recruiting men and running terror camps in Pakistan.

Kashmiri's to a large extent have rid themselves of brain washing from across the border and picking up guns. You must be aware of the return of the 1000 Kashmiri men who had gone for terror training to Pakistan a long while ago and have started returning back to Kashmir.

India missed the boat on this.....instead of building a fences-bunkers along the LOC during the last decade when the pakistani govt had stopped the majority of fighters crossing over and showing true intent to find a amicable solution you should have reproached in like wise gestures.If that had happened the pakistani govt would have no choice but to back away from a military soultion.

I don't know what you mean to say there - are you saying Pakistan has reversed it's terrorism policy in Kashmir for the last decade? I see the reasons for that as WOT, Pakistan doesn't have the resources to mange a two front proxy war both in Afghanistan and India at the same time- and due to WOT most NATO countries would have had presence in Pakistan and Pakistan wouldn't have continued it's militant policy in presence of so many countries - so on all accounts they had put it on hold, because they had bigger interests in Afghanistan. Also after the Kargil misadventure - I don't see India trusting Pakistan or their word for a long time. India has to maintain her forces all along the LOC -whether Pakistan is busy elsewhere or not because Pakistan cannot cease it's proxy war on India for multiple reasons.

I said the same thing a few years ago to some indian members.....once the US leaves what to do think is going to happen if not the same as before( quote your above post).
I remember clearly indian statements that if pakistan stops LOC crossing by kashmiri fighters india was willing to reduce the army in kashmir and withdraw draconian laws.........violence in kashmir has been very low compared to the previous decades but the indan govt di not make a single major concession but new demand.

Violence in the Kashmir valley has reduced because Pakistan was busy in its own territory and Afghanistan plus because of the presence of many international agencies in Pakistan - who were spying on literally everything happening in Pakistan.

As i said before it very disingenuous to compare the muslims of india who through there own free will and choice stayed in india to that of the kashmiris who never got a choice.

It's a matter between Kashmir Muslims (who presently come under the Indian state) Indian Muslims and Indians in general - Indian Muslims are against another partition of India on religious grounds because one more division will hit them badly as for the choice of Kashmiri's they have begun to participate in the Indian nation and most Kashmiri's know that.

 

[dabong1]

Can you use your mind??? Don't you know any difference btwn Army in barrack/border or Army on roads?? Offcourse how can you, from a country where Army always control civilians what else can be expected...

so they in there barracks during 47-65......."Cant you use your mind"?

Those all are secondary, Question remain same, Why KPs were killed/raped/tortured?? Why Mulla Radio threat to rape there daughter???

The same reason the muslim where killed........what about the actual rape of thousand of kashmiri woman by the indian army and not just a threat(which i dont even believe).

How much share KPs have in Gilgit Baltistan?? KPs too need seperate country if Kashmir become independent. At least 50% of KashmirVally+GilgitBaltistan should be given to KPs...

Well they have a choice of either living in kashmir or going where they want.......they can have the land mass that represents there numbers if you like.

 

[Developereo]

Kashmir had no Hindu Muslim issue, Both party were living happily, what provoke suddenly that Mulla Radio (Madarsa) started announcing rape of Hindu women??? Did KPs hurt Muslalmaan??

"Collaborating, Aagent, Kaffir, Traitor" are famous quote of Pakistanis, You ppl have branded many intellectual as CIA agent. One you doesn't agree with your ideology become traitor, nice logic..

There were no Army in Kashmir till Afghan war ended. Indian army came much later.

Don't spread your misinformation here. A true Muslim don't tell lie.. so stop misinformation. KPs didn't hurt Muslims. There is no recorded facts neither any Kashmiri Muslim ever claimed so.

Once again, if you set aside emotions and look at the issue in the context of similar situations around the world, it's not difficult to understand.

The two communities had been co-existing peacefully for centuries, even through the 1947 partition. Now, all of a sudden, the mistrust mushroomed and violence happened. So, what changed?

The answer is the heightened separatist movement and the Indian Army's handling of the situation, with rampant human rights abuses. The community had divided loyalties, and that division inevitably led to mistrust, culminating in violence.

 

[illusion8]

If where going off the yardstick that a single man(maharaja) can choose who his nation goes to then you must also accept that Junagrah should be part of paskistan......it had a muslim ruler with a majority hindu population who joined pakistan but the indian army invaded.

Pakistan should have sent it's forces into Junagarh at that time, when the Nawab ran away to Pakistan - you cannot put your failures on us.

Why would a hindu ruler want to join a muslim nation?....The muslim in that nation would want to join the same way as in jundagarh the hindu population wanted to join india .
The logic of partition says that the majority muslim areas should form pakistan and the hindu regions as india.

Majority Kashmiri's were with the Maharaja when he acceded because PA backed Mujahadeen and regular forces who infiltrated Kashmir in 47 started killing, looting and raping Kashmiri's.

Well we say to the indian muslims you got a choice we didnt and we want it.

You already made your choice - you are a Pakistani now - we are talking of Indian Kashmiri's here and you don't represent them.