Kashmir | News & Discussions.

[file12345]

They are protesting against India, true country men will not do it. They better be killed.

Whatttttttttttttttttttt.

It means that when subcontinent people were asking independence from British raj.So British should have killed everybody.

I really wish your thinking is that of a minority in Indian Power Corridors.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

I didnt call your name, but Iam sure ur name is not unique, there are many

a possibility

As per evidence is concerned, the world knows it, you are a Cat who is drinking milk with closed eyes thinks no body is watching it

no, that would be actually be hindustan as far as the Kashmir quagmire is concerned!

And Numb skulls???, looks like you have a bigger % of numb skulls.

We have shown it to the world, did any one retun in favor of you. No one...We got what we wanted.

got what you wanted???? indian occupied Kashmir is erupting in flames again --another ongoing intifada/freedom struggle as I type this reply!

We killed 75 Anti- Indians. Good kashmiries are still with us. No one is above a country, be it a child mother or father. Even our soldiers die!.

well, i'll remember this fancifully worded line next time you or your 'countrymen' bring up Bangladesh because the Mukti Bahini were anti-Pakistanis.

Pakistan failed democratically to accept Mujibs political victory; india has been failing for 60 years to be cognizant of the demands of occupied Kashmiris. We faced the music in 1971. india is facing and will continue to face the music until Kashmir is liberated.

let that be known now, so that there are no 'suprises' in the future

That doesnt change the reality and the reality is is Kahmir is an integral part of India.

right, we can clearly see that

Cry until your eys get cold.

Who is reaping and who is sawing in actually visible, the world is blind to what is happening in Kashmir, We are not bothered abt you.

We are not bothered about you not being bothered; not being ''bothered'' over the obvious is not out of character for the hindustanys.

as for world being blind, couldnt agree with you more. Pakistani diplomacy has been failing under this administration, and it wasnt until the occupying forces (the sissies) murdered 18 Kashmiris in cold blood 52 hours ago that finally our spineless politicians began to mobilize and issue statements of condemnation

The choice is now before New Delhi: will it handle the situation politically or will it intensify its repressive measures that are bound to be counterproductive and catalyst for further (spectacular) failure?

And you were gifted Kashmir by the almighty????...

don't get emotional; just let the Kashmiris determine their own fate and destiny.

He is a good man, and his words translates to peace, which you wont understand.

he does no justice to his respectable credentials when he is in such a weak position whereby on one hand he gives the usual rhetoric about being ''disturbed'' and ''shocked'' while on the other hand the occupational forces (the sissies) are the reason why the valley is yet again erupting in flames

there is an uprising against the occupiers at this time

are PM Singh and his establishment on the same page as the hindustany occupational forces? Whose orders are the latter following?

All locals???, stastically poor analysis.

tens of thousands of protestors (increasingly --more women of all ages) is saying a lot

No one changes this, we are. We can kill also. Not the communits way, not the barbarian way, but the democratic way, Mindfully killing those who is against the nation, we had the rights, we have the rights and we will use the right in years to come....

how thoughtful!

are the people in this so-called ''integral part'' of hindustan afforded the same??



...

or are they only at the receiving end of those ''rights''

 

[Dash]

Whatttttttttttttttttttt.

It means that when subcontinent people were asking independence from British raj.So British should have killed everybody.

I really wish your thinking is that of a minority in Indian Power Corridors.

That is true!!!!.....We cant commit the same mistakes that the British did.

No brother, we are not killing every one, its in an ambush people get killed. We didnt go to doors and picked up people and killed them. A bullet has no name.

Anyway, its a small prop who want Kashmir to be with Pak with Pak flag, looks like we have send them to Pak.

 

[HAIDER]

Indian govt is wasting time in intellect talk, which is beyond Kashmiri comprehension. They need freedom, that's it. This freedom will have some short falls for Indian, but India will gain alot in long term.

 

[Dash]

no, that would be actually be hindustan as far as the Kashmir quagmire is concerned!

Well then have something in common, and yo uare one to figure out first.
At least we can claim that we have done many projects and tried to develope Kashmir, while the rest of India enjoys freedom under Indian law, kashmir is backward, The reality is some people wont just let it happen..do I say more? But we are working on it..

got what you wanted???? indian occupied Kashmir is erupting in flames again --another ongoing intifada/freedom struggle as I type this reply!

Ohh, we have seen many, this is just another problem for the experienced guys. One time north east India was also like that.

well, i'll remember this fancifully worded line next time you or your 'countrymen' bring up Bangladesh because the Mukti Bahini were anti-Pakistanis.

Please do, like I said no one is above a country and its interest.

right, we can clearly see that

iam a democrat, so I welcome your comment. feel free for the laugh. iam sharing mine as well

Pakistan failed democratically to accept Mujibs political victory; india has been failing for 60 years to be cognizant of the demands of occupied Kashmiris. We faced the music in 1971. india is facing and will continue to face the music until Kashmir is liberated.

let that be known now, so that there are no 'suprises' in the future

That was not our mistake, and I know there are planning going in North block to tackle your so called surprises. I will leave it to that.

he does no justice to his respectable credentials when he is in such a weak position whereby one one hand he gives the usual rhetoric about being ''disturbed'' and ''shocked'' while on the other hand the occupational forces (the sissies) are the reason why the valley is yet again erupting in flames

there is an uprising against the occupiers at this time

are PM Singh and his establishment on the same page as the hindustany occupational forces? Whose orders are the latter following?

Truely bad policy isnt it?. I will give you an extract from his policy. he says kille the one who attacks you, and thats what has happened, I will not let the soldiers take the beating when the protestors attack, we didnt go door to door for a killing. We are going door to door now for a dialogue and you will soon see a result.

tens of thousands of protestors (increasingly --more women of all ages) is saying a lot

Thats 0.5% of the total population, I will call it a movement when teh state is against us and thats not teh case here.

how thoughtful!

do the people in this so-called ''integral part'' of hindustan have these rights??



...

or are they only at the receiving end of those ''rights''

Again, you read it wrong. I meant the Law of India and She as a country. People are always at the receiving end, You know you live a better life than a normal pakistani, but there are not many like you (I believe you are rich/middle class). That is completely your choice as to how you want to live.

Some choose struggle for non sense reasons, and they are the true ones at teh receiving end.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

I can assure you that does not happen...

Not convincing enough.Actions speak.

you can give our hindus in kashmir some preferential treatment if you want to, give them money, etc, or take them as migrants

,
We"ll give them what rightfully belongs to them,as for any Indian citizen.

or whatever you want, we wont and we dont interfere in their lives, or choices., just leave kashmir to it's fate,

In the past a stupid Maharajah did that.The result part Kashmir was marauded by tribals & conventional army who indulged in pillaging/raping/slaughtering/finally expelling the Non-Muslims.

there is not a single strategic gain by maintaining an army here, as far as I know, in laddakh, siachen, etc, it is counterproductive, other than a few observation posts into china and pakistan, there is no strategic value, & if at all there is any stratgetic value

,
The army is there to stay,any territory we"ve lost since independence is in that region.Despite their maintainence our entire defence expenditure is 2.5% of the GDP.

it is counterbalanced by the costs, which are enormous for a country struggling with hunger, homelessness, AIDS, and poverty...

Al those mentioned above have have seen a significant drop since 1990s.AIDS is more of a success story judging the fact within 2 years a drop of 2 million in numbers was observed.

i'm afraid i'm debating here again,

You definitely should be.

i did not want to do this in the first place, but now that i did, why waste the effort, i hope you end this after answering this one, coz i dont want an endless debate, it is really useless.
thanks in advance

Something finally right in your post.

 

[DGMO]

Well you are giving a back-handed compliment, but the fact remains that India merely reacted smartly to what was happening.

Absolutely, and I agree they did act smartly, not many times it can be said according to Indians, but South Block was on the ball for that one!

 

[Tuahaa]

if i slip, fall and injure my ankle -- does it mean that I should not report to work? Does it mean I should lay in bed, sulking like a little sissy?

No, it doesn't.


it's a common and standard hindustany reaction to either

a.) bring up non-issues

or

b.) as of late, bring up floods or political situation in Pakistan



a very flawed, and immature way to approach the argument. Therefore, I will dismiss your post as ''garbage'' before even having read it in its entirety.



try again shortly

Before some dude replies, both a) and b) have happened to me lately (and not just once) by some indian people (on different occasions).

 

[deckingraj]

I am not shoving anything down your throat, and for clarification I am referring to Kashmiris as in those from Kashmir, not Jammu and Laddakh. What I am pointing out is that Indians are refusing to consider the possibility that the Kashmiris want the 'Azadi' to be able to determine their future status as part of Pakistan, India or independence. By refusing to deal with that possiblity, one that was in fact promised to the Kashmiris by the Indian State, it is India that is shoving pre-conditions down the throats of the Kashmiris.

This is like shying away from reality....I don't want to go down the road of why the promise was not kept but Pakistan is equally responsible for the saga...Anyways there is nothing to gain in Blame Game....I have already explained why the issue of plebiscite is complex...if you want to ignore the reality i cannot help......

The problem is that you want to discuss everything but the proverbial 'elephant in the room'.

That is wrong...I want to discuss what is relevant keeping ground reality in mind....

I am sorry, but to argue that the tens of thousands of Kashmirs are on the streets asking for 'Azadi' and abusing India is because of 'animal husbandry and agriculture' is just plain ludicrous.

This argument is reflective of a deep desire to not deal with reality.

Again wrong....So much media attention, so manu shows where Kashmiri's are invited to share their views, so much talk in political circle of ways to deal with the issue cannot be considered as shying away from reality...In fact you are shying away from reality by not accepting this fact...in your terms if only viable solution is plebiscite rest everything is shying away from reality....

As far as development is concerned then yes underdeveloped areas are prone to gullible vested interests...The reason yound pakistani's in tribal areas blowing fellow pakistani's is testamount to that.....Had Kashmir been a developed area the level of rhetoric would have been on much lower scale...So whether you like it or not lack of development has a big hand in current situation......Vested Interests have related the reason for non-development to GOI occupation....This is simple logic, if you want to ignore it i cannot help....

Industrialization is important, but why did this not happen in every single State in the Indian Union and in Pakistan before industrialization took place?

Agno, people unrest is directly related to prosperity of the country....That is the reason western countries are far more stable then Asian countries...The reason we have moists, you have problems in Baloch and other areas is directly because of development...Weren't you and I were discussing on a different thread how PA is ensuring that areas won back from Taliban should be properly developed to kill the menace for good??? Now mind it i am not saying that there are not people who wants to separate away from GOI....All i am saying is that such a level of civil unrest is not just because of Azaadi sentiments...

The people of Kashmir are not really divided about what they want. A pretty significant majority wants 'Azadi'.

That's your problem....Whom are kashmiri's representing??? State of Jammu and Kashmir or something else??? Majority of people of Jammu and Kashmir do not want Azaadi, people inside valley are divided on what exactly is the definition of Azadi...now you want to ignore all this and stick to point which is favaouring your stand, but we cannot....

How can accuse me of being 'dishonest' when your justification of 'dissatisfaction with agriculture and animal husbandry' is just plain ludicrous and unsubstantiated? Where is your data to indicate this is the reason for disenchantment with India?

I cannot recall any posters in these protests stating 'down with animal husbandry' or 'an end to agricultural jobs', or even more simply, 'where is our Industry and and where are our factories'!!

I have already explained my point many times...Ignoring it will not help....Regarding the data may i know on what database you are saying that majority of kashmiri's wan't freedom???? yes there are factions who are in favour of it, similarly there are people who are against it....Your problem is that you want to talk only about Kashmir Valley whereas i am talking about the whole state....Why are you ignoring the rest of state???

One would expect that if what you state was the primary motivation behind these protests, there would be some sign or mention of it, and such a scenario might be replicated in other regions where 'agriculture and animal husbandry' were the main professions.

Agno, are you trying to score points here???? Why are you stuck with Animal husbandry and agriculture??? Are the people in tribal areas of pakistan saying that we are bomnbing every corner of Pakistan because there is no development in these areas??? Now may i know why are you trying to develop those areas???

There are various sin-off's on the plebiscite proposal that allow for district or region wise selection, or the Chenab formula for example. And if people are being invited to share their thoughts, then why refuse to consider one very real possibility of a demand for 'Azadi to choose Pakistan, India or independence'? How is that mature, when you rule out listening to possibly the underlying cause for disenchantment?

Because mature people know that things can only be done in steps...I being a party to the conflict can come up with the maximum possible compromise...I cannot say lets talk and we will do what all you want us to do...I being a party to problem will say look i am ready to talk with you under the charter of our consitution..Lets sit and come up with a compromise formulae....

I can understand the Indian refusal to talk about the real issues and blame 'animal husbandry' - it is a disconnect with reality. Complete pullback by Pakistan is as likely as a complete pullback by India. The UNSC resolutions did not endorse it unconditionally and the UNCIP proposals on demilitarization did not endorse it either. But the rest of it can be resolved through negotiations - that is precisely why you need to 'listen' to all grievances, and be prepared to talk the issue with Pakistan. Resolution of complex issues does not come from sitting around twiddling your thumbs and refusing to acknowledge the elephant in the room.

Wow...that is completely one sided view...but i can understand that....This attitude will lead us no where...Anyways your choice....As far as issue is concerned then India is always ready to talk with Pakistan bearing enough nuts are tightened on freaks loosened by you guys....Formulae with Mush happened because India was involved in Talks, right???

The ball is in India's court on that issue. Pakistan is not the one refusing to start off where we left off.

Actually the ball is in Pakistan's court. India is ready to talk bearing you do enough on pigs in your country....anyways lets talk about the issue in hand rather then why india and pakistan are not talking....

 

[navida]

Could it be that after it had raised the 'ISI sponsored stone-pelters' card, India realised that doing this will only lead to more internationalisation of the issue i.e. kashmiris' protests.

I mean just think about it hypothetically for a second, imagine are GoI and you know your enemy (ISI/Pak) is sponsoring the stone pelters and inciting violence.
It could be possible!

ISI cannot instigate people without their will. Indian army like any other army in the world is brutal and inhumane. They have been suffocating the people of the valley for decades now. I cannot imagine how people can derive fairness out of all the brutalities happening there. The government missed the opportunity to appease the people and gain their confidence when the time was ripe. We should think what is good for the Kashmiri people and not just for our jingoism.

 

[Valiant_Soul]

You are contradicting yourself - in the last line you argue that the Princely States were subject to boundary conditions, but in the beginning you argue that there was no legal framework agreed upon for accessions. If there was no framework agreed upon, then where did the boundary conditions come from? The boundary conditions were in fact not conditions, but suggestions, and they were not binding.

No I am not, you are just failing to see the complete picture. I said the legal framework was not "completely" agreed upon, that is in terms of the princely states. Both India and Mountbatten were of the opinion that the geographical conditions should be the basis of their going with India or Pakistan. And if you are sensible, you would not refute that logic (but Pakistan did). The boundary conditions were not legally binding, but they were certainly naturally binding.

As I pointed out before, there was nothing suggesting that the Princely States could only accede based on the nations ideology - that is an obvious canard, and you have provided nothing to support any understanding between the British, ML and Congress on that issue. What you have provided is merely commentary on the ideology of Pakistan - that does not equate to evidence indicating that the rules governing accession of States prohibited non-Muslim States from joining Pakistan.

No what I provided is the very foundation on which Pakistan was created, and that being the fact India was correct in asserting that Junagadh cannot go to Pakistan and also because it does not shares boundary with Pakistan but with India, and even because of un-containable communal violence that was on spree there.

You did not 'keep Junagadh and Hyderabad', India invaded and occupied them. In the first case the State had acceded to Pakistan, in the latter the ruler was not allowed to make any decision. There was nothing indicating an agreement to limit the accession of States to Pakistan to only Muslim States.

As I said before, there were no agreements over the princely states.

I agree on the part about 'same logic', and I do not dispute resolving all three contested States through plebiscite, but where is the plebiscite in Kashmir? India now refuses to even consider it.

Those terms of plebiscite on Kashmir are now lost, all for your intention to not abide by the UN resolution (see below). So let us look ahead now?

Explicit pre-conditions, such as the ones India wants, were never formalized as part of the UNSC resolutions. The fact is that after India's hostile actions in Junagadh and Hyderabad, Pakistan was never going to vacate J&K and allow India to deploy troops to occupy the State, especially when there was no enforcement mechanism to force India to comply with the UNSC resolutions.

For that reason the actual UNSC resolutions called for discussions between UNCIP, India and Pakistan on coming up with demilitarization proposals, and UNCIP did propose many solutions, all of which were rejected by India. The proposal that India wanted, for Pakistan to completely vacate J&K, and allow complete Indian military dominance in the territory, and then also allow India to conduct the plebiscite, was obviously not acceptable or rational, for either Pakistan or the UN.

I do not think that is the true picture and you would agree. Excerpts of the UN Resolution on Kashmir:

The Government of Pakistan should undertake to use its best endeavors:
To secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistani nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purposes of fighting, and to prevent any intrusion into the State of such elements and any furnishing of material aid to those fighting in the State;

The Government of India should:
(a)When it is established to the satisfaction of the Commission set up in accordance with the Council's Resolution 39 (1948) that the tribesmen are withdrawing and that arrangements for the cessation of the fighting have become effective, put into operation in consultation with the Commission a plan for withdrawing their own forces from Jammu and Kashmir and reducing them progressively to the minimum strength required for the support of the civil power in the maintenance of law and order;

Make known that the withdrawal is taking place in stages and announce the completion of each stage;

When the Indian forces shall have been reduced to the minimum strength mentioned in (a) above, arrange in consultation with the Commission for the stationing of the remaining forces to be carried out in accordance with the following principles:

That the presence of troops should not afford any intimidation or appearance of intimidation to the inhabitants of the State;

That as small a number as possible should be retained in forward areas;

That any reserve of troops which may be included in the total strength should be located within their present base area.

Pakistan did not retracted its troops/tribesmen, and hence neither did India.

 

[Speaker]

ISI cannot instigate people without their will. Indian army like any other army in the world is brutal and inhumane. They have been suffocating the people of the valley for decades now. I cannot imagine how people can derive fairness out of all the brutalities happening there. The government missed the opportunity to appease the people and gain their confidence when the time was ripe. We should think what is good for the Kashmiri people and not just for our jingoism.

Exactly, what is good for the Kashmiri people as a whole...not just for the jingoism of the people in the valley.

 

[rohitx007]

One question.. Do you think only the kashmir land is yours or that also includes Kashmiries you are killing every day?

Both ways: tum logon ko sharam nai ati

jisne ki sharam , uske fute karam

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Before some dude replies, both a) and b) have happened to me lately (and not just once) by some indian people (on different occasions).

a lot of TTs and other higher ups have concluded that off-topic posts made in an effort to derail or create unwanted diversions should be reported.

PDFs capable management will deal with them

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

We have 3 main players in the world who can criticize India on Kashmir.
1.Western powers
2.OIC(Organization of Islamic Council)
3.China.

First the Western Powers.
In the 1990s,if you see any documentary on Kashmir say ABC news one or Journeymanpictures,they are heavily critical of Human rights abuses by Indian forces and also blame both India and Pakistan for propaganda.

However post 9/11 ,India's rise as a large market .Those criticisms have died down.As everyone wants a share of it.

If you also remember David Miliband ,UKs Secretary of State for Foreign affairs came under heavy fire from his opposition for mentioning Kashmir ,Media referred Kashmir as the K-word as if its some kind of taboo in Global politics.

After 9/11 most of the separatist movements by Islamic groups are seen as Islamic insurgency or even Islamic terrorism. For example South Thailand insurgency was attributed to Malay Pattani separatism once(because at that time Islam was the tool for countering Communist influence there.),now its called Islamic insurgency.
Same has gone for Kashmir ,also the current fact that Pakistan is the bad guy and India the good guy, based on their performance in WOT.

Second the OIC
OIC has been traditionally the most vehement in voicing concerns regarding Kashmir.
However,Events like first and second gulf war,WOT,Iran - KSA rivalry for Leadership of the Islamic world,have resulted in a fragmented leadership there.The views are getting divergent day by day.
Once Iran gets nukes the value of Pakistan being the lone nuclear power in the Islamic world will diminish.
Also they"re are aware of the growing role of India in international stage will soon be replaced with Indian clout and because of our geographic proximity we can play an important role in the middle-east.
So their volume on Kashmir is lowered.

Finally,China
From the recent incident of denial of visa we see China indulging in diplomatic mischief to appease Pakistan.
But when the time comes for critical decisions like UN listing of certain Kashmir based organization as terrorist group they voted against Pakistani interest.Simple reason being that it there is a chance of these groups causing disturbance in Xinjiang as well as putting future economic plans of China in Afghanistan into jeopardy.