Kashmir | News & Discussions.

[GUNNER]

But is it doing nothing? And what would you perceive as 'more' than it is? Then as I keep coming back to, what is the end game?

It's called doing the least of what they can. Even Kashmiri leaders have been calling for action by Pakistan at this point by taking up the issue of at international forum. And not just the so-called seperatists but the moderates who are willing to talk to India.

International recognition comes to light when interests are affected. The West cares about Pakistan in the context of Afghanistan.

I agree to the first part but you ve answered your own question. Has the issue in Afghanistan been solved ? Infact once it is, Pakistan will lose whatever leverage it has right now.

Again, i am not saying that international community be asked to resolve the dispute. Not even to ask India to engage in talks with Pakistan. Even though US is doing that part. But, to ask India to show restraint in Kashmir and stop the sense-less killings.

 

[DGMO]

You will find many people criticizing the approach of GOI...The issue is we are not clear about what to do..there is lot of uncertainty going on

I think that's the problem and the GoI is at a loss on how to deal with this. I think there is wholesale agreement that the unprecedented nature of these protests and cries for azaadi has stunned Congress. Even I didn't think this had legs to go this far, but 80+ deaths later and now I can't see this winding down soon.

So the scenario (which is frightening for New Delhi) is 'what if this gets worse than it currently is?'.

Development is not the real issue for me, I think it's disingenious to say that it is the crux of the issue. I think we all need to be honest with ourselves and realise that there is political disenchantment in the Valley.

Kashmir, by Indian standards is a wealthy state (6% poverty levels I believe), and we all know that economic packages have been announced on a regular basis.

But how much can the GoI continue to raise that as a means to a solution? Haven't we got to a stage where jobs come second and a true political solution comes first?

I'm sure MMS is tired of announcing economic packages only to find mass riots and protests later. Isn't that telling us something?

Political solution first, jobs second seems to be what the Kashmiri's in the Valley are telling the GoI.

 

[Valiant_Soul]

This is very simplistic view...It is easy saying balls in their court but we cannot deny the mistakes of GOI viz-a-viz Kashmir...I do not want to derail the thread but if you want to get a complete picture perhaps start from GOI role in rigged elections of late 80's.....

I do not want to derail the thread either, but just a reference would be helpful.

 

[DGMO]

But, to ask India to show restraint in Kashmir and stop the sense-less killings.

I'd be surprised, very surprised if conversations in private haven't been had. But going all out will only end up with India criticising us heavily for seeking political mileage from the current crisis.

Our hands are tied, and ability to influence matters on the world stage in terms of having such a statement directed at India are limited. I'm sure the OIC could come out with something (meaningless as it will be), but the EU, UN etc will do little - so not to p1ss off India.

 

[muhammad asim aslam]

Indians apni chooha fauj se Kahmirion ko dara rahe hain...
but Insha Allah Kashmir bane ga Pakistan...

 

[DesiGuy]

Indians apni chooha fauj se Kahmirion ko dara rahe hain...
but Insha Allah Kashmir bane ga Pakistan...

Keep dreaming.

 

[alibaz]

This is what is called misinterpretation of facts. Let me post that survey for you which I actually posted in another thread:

A few important points to note,

1. Kashmiris' are themselves divided about what they want.
2. 68% in the valley say that " India should give kashmir control over everything except defence, foreign affairs and communication. This clearly means that those 68% can compromise with India retaining overall control. Yet again, 66% in the valley say "Complete freedom for entire J&K as a seperate country".

Two thing becomes very clear,

1. Valley and only valley wants independence but even they could be satisfied with things like greater autonomy with India giving up control for everything except defence, foreign affairs and communication. GoI is game for that.
2. Nobody wants to join Pakistan

Regards

Peace

Thank you very much for posting survey in tabular form. I think the article posted doesn't have any difference with your table,yes your table is more detailed and logical. Another thing whenever Kashmiries would be asked to give their choice it would not only be Indian Administered Kashmir, it will have opinion count from other side of Kashmir as well and there will be the difference.

 

[DesiGuy]

Quran burning rumour: Muslim leaders condemn attack on churches, Christian properties


NEW DELHI: Prominent Muslim leaders today condemned the attacks on Christian properties and institutions and appealed to their community members to "show restraint" and stage only peaceful demonstrations.

A day after violence erupted in Jammu and Kashmir and Punjab following rumours that a copy of Quran had been burnt in the US, the leaders, including MIM leader and MP Asaduddin Owaisi, came out with a statement against such attacks.

"We disapprove disrespect to any religion or desecration of any sacred scripture or vilification of any religious personality or attack on any religious place, anywhere in the world and consider it a despicable and uncivilised act," the leaders like All India Muslim Majlis-e-Mushawart President Syed Shahabuddin said.

They said Islam specifically prohibits such acts and behaviour.

"...whatever the provocation, we strongly condemn the attacks on Christian properties and institutions in some places in Kashmir and in Maler Kotla in Punjab," they said and urged authorities concerned to take stern legal action against the culprits.

"We also appeal to our Muslim brethren in India, in particular, and elsewhere, in general, to show restraint in such situations and limit their disapproval and protest against such incidents to peaceful demonstrations, press statements and memoranda to the authorities concerned," the statement said.

It was signed by Nusrat Ali, Secretary General of Jamaat-e -Islami Hind and Zafar Mahmood, President of Interfaith Coalition and Zakat Foundation of India.

The rumours that Quran was burnt led to violent protests in Jammu and Kashmir yesterday. At least 18 people were killed in the violence.

Quran burning rumour: Muslim leaders condemn attack on churches, Christian properties - The Times of India

 

[Valiant_Soul]

I think that's the problem and the GoI is at a loss on how to deal with this. I think there is wholesale agreement that the unprecedented nature of these protests and cries for azaadi has stunned Congress. Even I didn't think this had legs to go this far, but 80+ deaths later and now I can't see this winding down soon.

So the scenario (which is frightening for New Delhi) is 'what if this gets worse than it currently is?'.

Development is not the real issue for me, I think it's disingenious to say that it is the crux of the issue. I think we all need to be honest with ourselves and realise that there is political disenchantment in the Valley.

Kashmir, by Indian standards is a wealthy state (6% poverty levels I believe), and we all know that economic packages have been announced on a regular basis.

But how much can the GoI continue to raise that as a means to a solution? Haven't we got to a stage where jobs come second and a true political solution comes first?

I'm sure MMS is tired of announcing economic packages only to find mass riots and protests later. Isn't that telling us something?

Political solution first, jobs second seems to be what the Kashmiri's in the Valley are telling the GoI.

How can any solution be achieved without an environment for dialog? The separatists are not ready for any settlement except independence, and that you know is neither feasible nor acceptable. The grounds of their demand is both unjust (based solely on religion) and also not pragmatic.

But if they want to see peaceful resolution of the issue, they can come to the table and talk, as the Prime Minister has assured that the government is willing to talk to them within the purview of the constitution.

Dialog always paves way to peace, violence seldom.

 

[GUNNER]

But going all out will only end up with India criticising us heavily for seeking political mileage from the current crisis.

I don't think so. It's the first time that New Delhi cannot blame Islamabad of any wrong doing at international forum and they know it. It will be difficult for them to justify the acts of their forces.

Our hands are tied, and ability to influence matters on the world stage in terms of having such a statement directed at India are limited.

Limited they may be but we would never know unless we take it up.

but the EU, UN etc will do little - so not to p1ss off India.

It goes the other way around as well.

 

[DGMO]

How can any solution be achieved without an environment for dialog? The separatists are not ready for any settlement except independence, and that you know is neither feasible nor acceptable. The grounds of their demand is both unjust (based solely on religion) and also not pragmatic.

But if they want to see peaceful resolution of the issue, they can come to the table and talk, as the Prime Minister has assured that the government is willing to talk to them within the purview of the constitution.

Dialog always paves way to peace, violence seldom.

I understand the need for creating the necessary environment. But we have a stalemate. Both sides (placing the environment to one side) have their entrenched positions.

The separatists have placed their preconditions in place, and the GoI have placed their preconditions in place. Can there be discussions when we have that stance from both sides? Both need to show a degree of flexibility.

I'm not sure how keenly the Centre wanted talks (before the troubles we've seen began), but all I do know is that any talks are going to be much harder given the lives that have been lost, the hatred that has been created, and the trust that is at an all-time low.

As I said earlier, here's hoping the GoI make a breakthrough somehow. Because it seems incredibly hard at the moment.

 

[alibaz]

Don't you think survey result leads us to this type of solution

CHENAB FORMULA
Writes Abdul Rashid Malik in The Nation (3 June 2003): ‘The river Chenab comes out from Himalayan range of Kullus in the extreme north of Kishtwar in Doda district (Jammu province) with high mountain range of Himachal (India) adjoining in the background. It flows through the mountainous areas of Doda, Ramban, Surukot, Salat, Reasi, Akhnoor and enters into Punjab (Pakistan) at Head Marala where a big headwork has been built facilitating construction of two big channels. India has built Salal dam on it under Indus Water Treaty. On the right bank of it is stretched half of mountainous Doda district, the entire Gulab Garh tehsil of Udhampur district, at a very long distance fall the districts of Rajouri and Poonch all being the Muslim majority areas contiguously linked with Kashmir province which has six districts with 98 percent Muslim population. On the left bank of Chenab fall the beautiful Tehsils of Bhadarwah, Kishtwar having majority Muslim population, and at far away starts the Hindu majority districts of Udhampur, Jammu and Kathua. To sum up, out of six districts of Jammu province almost three districts fall on the right bank of Chenab river having close contiguity with Kashmir province. Only three districts with majority Hindu population fall on the left bank of the river. According to Chenab Line formula of division of Jammu and Kashmir (if agreed to) eighty- percent territory of the state (including Azad Kashmir and Northern areas) becomes part of Pakistan only twenty percent being left with India.



lots of coffee

 

[DGMO]

Don't you think survey result leads us to this type of solution

CHENAB FORMULA
Writes Abdul Rashid Malik in The Nation (3 June 2003): ‘The river Chenab comes out from Himalayan range of Kullus in the extreme north of Kishtwar in Doda district (Jammu province) with high mountain range of Himachal (India) adjoining in the background. It flows through the mountainous areas of Doda, Ramban, Surukot, Salat, Reasi, Akhnoor and enters into Punjab (Pakistan) at Head Marala where a big headwork has been built facilitating construction of two big channels. India has built Salal dam on it under Indus Water Treaty. On the right bank of it is stretched half of mountainous Doda district, the entire Gulab Garh tehsil of Udhampur district, at a very long distance fall the districts of Rajouri and Poonch all being the Muslim majority areas contiguously linked with Kashmir province which has six districts with 98 percent Muslim population. On the left bank of Chenab fall the beautiful Tehsils of Bhadarwah, Kishtwar having majority Muslim population, and at far away starts the Hindu majority districts of Udhampur, Jammu and Kathua. To sum up, out of six districts of Jammu province almost three districts fall on the right bank of Chenab river having close contiguity with Kashmir province. Only three districts with majority Hindu population fall on the left bank of the river. According to Chenab Line formula of division of Jammu and Kashmir (if agreed to) eighty- percent territory of the state (including Azad Kashmir and Northern areas) becomes part of Pakistan only twenty percent being left with India.



lots of coffee

No, because:

1) It's divisions of land on the basis of religion (which India doesn't agree to)

2) Goes against India's official stance that 'borders cannot be redrawn'.​

It has been put forward before, but it's not going to happen IMO.

 

[alibaz]

No, because:

1) It's divisions of land on the basis of religion (which India doesn't agree to)

2) Goes against India's official stance that 'borders cannot be redrawn'.​

It has been put forward before, but it's not going to happen IMO.

Actually now no one owns this formula but there were serious deliberations on it. Subcontinent has already been divided on basis of religion in 1947. The hindrance in this solution is by Kashmiries themselves cause they do not distribution of land. If India and Pakistan both agree and it is not as per aspirations of Kashmiris than it will be real PIA for both India and Pakistan.

 

[deckingraj]

I do not want to derail the thread either, but just a reference would be helpful.

The problem here is that we have articles but biased to core...Anyways this is something that you can mark my words on...In various debates and discussions this is one thing that every one agrees to....I tried to find something neutral and could come up with couple of Articles and few experts

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Kashmir's flawed elections

Sheikh Abdullah won a landslide victory, and his son and successor, Farooq Abdullah, won a huge majority in the elections of 1983.

But Farooq Abdullah fell out with India's ruling Congress party and the then prime minister, Indira Gandhi, who had him dismissed the very next year.

Turning point

But when Farooq Abdullah later agreed to an alliance with Congress, it turned many of supporters against him. It is widely believed that the elections of 1987 were rigged in favour of Mr Abdullah's party.

Clueless in Kashmir - The Times of India

The flashpoint was the 1987 assembly election. It was blatantly rigged to install Farooq Abdullah as chief minister when New Delhi went into panic over the rise of the Muslim United Front of which Geelani, with his pro- Pakistan views, was a part.

Read more: Clueless in Kashmir - The Times of India Clueless in Kashmir - The Times of India


if you are looking out for some GOI admission to this fact then i am sorry i cannot help...