Kashmir | News & Discussions.

[arihant]

Which part of my post did say that if some one is in minority they should be prosecuted. My point was that sikh prescence in valley is not something that can influence politics of kashmir vis a vis India . From indian POV the political value of sikh community is marginal and the propaganda value of persecuted sikhs in valley is great . Your post reflects the lack of comprehension and nothing more .

As far as return of kashmiri pandits is concerned every pro freedom leader has appealed then to return .But pundits want kashmiri muslims to give up thier demand of freedom before returning .

Well Hindus which constituted 18% of Kashmir Valley are now 1%. So what you term it ? They hardly had any effect on politics yaah...

This way you will nationalize whole Kashmir Valley as Muslim Valley.

Oh! i suppose you mean that Sikhs are one percent and it doesn't affect Kashmir valley politics... That would be OK in our country but we cannot to take away any share from anything.

PS. And about returning those Pandits, you mean killing all of them suddenly like what happen from 1989. I hope you don't need list of all those massacre. Even they never thrown stone to anyone but they still got killed and when someone is killed while throwing he is asked to become hero. (If I remember, something like 30 got killed in one day in Karachi for violence, and you take it totally different)

 

[RobbieS]

You can't be a Muslim if you were forced.

Case closed.

Appreciate your post Freekin, but thats not the point here.

According to the Quran, one who kills innocents isn't a Muslim either. But how much of that is actually followed or believed? Your statement is an easy way to wriggle out of debates around forced conversions. But the fact remains that incidents happen and threats like these are made.

Those of you calling this an Indian conspiracy conveniently forget what started 2 decades ago. Kashmiri Pandits were hounded out of their homes by zealots who saw them as extensions of Indian rule. They forgot that these people were as much Kashmiri as themselves and that there own ancestors were Hindus or Buddhists. Was this done by Indian agencies as well? Did Indian agencies themselves try and initiate an ethnic cleansing to discredit the separatists?

 

[EjazR]

@civfanatic

I can understand why Kashmiri Pandits are uncomfortable to return to the valley, when even non-kashmir govt, employees like railway employees are not comfortable to return.

Woudl you deny the fact that that if only the valley which is 5 million people andconsistsof less than 10% of the geographical area of the entire state of J&K state want independance and the rest of the parts don't then it is non-viable?

The reality is that Pakistan is not parting away with Gilgit Baltistan or any part of Kashmir under their control.

As you saw in the program, the Pandits are ready to support the valley muslims on every issue, removal of AFSPA, HR violations, multicultural society and all that, but the onething they can't support is secession.

I would go further and say that Indians from all across the board would support the KAshmiris if the give up the rhetoric of secession. Every Indian barring some right wing nutjobs would sympathise with the Kashmiris in the valley, but when secession is raised as a religious struggleas Geelani does, it becomes a losing battle precisely because this is UnIslamic. The idea of establishing a political Islamicstate is deviant innovation and bound to fail.

 

[magg]

According to the Quran, one who kills innocents isn't a Muslim either. But how much of that is actually followed or believed? Your statement is an easy way to wriggle out of debates around forced conversions. But the fact remains that incidents happen and threats like these are made.

Exactly !!! These terrorists are nothing but Islamist radicals who want to create a 7th century islamist state. They forced the Kashmiri Pandits out of the valley when those people were living there for centuries.

The Terrorists sponsored by ISI regularly targeted both Kashmiri pandits as well as the shias of the valley so that a radical islamic state of sunnis could be created. Then the ISI forced the shia dominated terrorist groups to accept the killing of shias so that the world wont view the terrorism from an islamic radicals point of view.

This was one of the main reason for terrorists groups like JKLF to be disenchanted with the ISI and surrender. That is why all those terrorist groups are not still fighting, who were part of the inception of the terror activities in Kashmir. They are understood the evil designs of ISI to create a radical 7th century Taliban diktats like state to further pursue the policies of ISI in destabilizing India using Kashmiris as a tool.

The recent attacks in sopore by these islamic radical terrorists on common innocent civilians show this grand strategy to radicalize the youth of Kashmir. One such article link is given below :
The Hindu : States / Other States : Inside the Islamist resurgence in Sopore

The real kashmiris will however never let the evil designs of ISI to be executed and will always fight against it. Thus the sikhs of kashmir would rather like to die in kashmir rather than being forced to move out of it. The ISI may be successful in planting sunnis in P_O_K upto 90% of population but in the end they will have to pay for their strategy of giving support to the Islamic radicals.

 

[Jade]

You are making a lot of assumptions here and one of them is that sikh community in kashmir is predominantly pro -india . Even if someone agrees with your assumption the moot point is that in demographic terms sikhs are less than 1% of valleys population . They can influence niether political discourse(vis a vis Kashmirs accession to india ) nor a plebicite in kashmir valley

Aren’t you guilty of the same…assuming that the entire Kashmir valley Muslims wants secession from India. Please talk about yourself and don't generalize.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

True and still Pakistani denies the fact that there is always a religious angle attached to Kashmir struggle. They always compare Kashmir with Palestine for atrocities against muslims but will never talk about Kashmiri Pandits and Sikhs... Selective choice ..huh

The focus is primarily on allowing for a plebiscite - that inherently means that the Pandits and whoever else is in J&K would also have to vote. AFAIK, Pakistanis have said nothing about the Pandits or non-Muslims in J&K not having a voice.

In fact I have often pointed out that the UN can undertake a process of verifying and registering both the Kashmiri pandits as well as the millions of Muslim Kashmiri immigrants in Europe, so that both parties are able to cast their vote.

But since Indians typically refuse to even consider implementing the Kashmir right of self-determination, the vote of the Pandits rarely gets touched upon.

Also, the religious dimension of the Kashmiri separatist movement should not be automatically conflated with the minority of religious extremists elements present in Kashmir. One letter and a few acts by extremists do no mean the entire separatist movement, religious or ethnic, subscribes to such positions.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

@civfanatic

I can understand why Kashmiri Pandits are uncomfortable to return to the valley, when even non-kashmir govt, employees like railway employees are not comfortable to return.

Woudl you deny the fact that that if only the valley which is 5 million people andconsistsof less than 10% of the geographical area of the entire state of J&K state want independance and the rest of the parts don't then it is non-viable?

The reality is that Pakistan is not parting away with Gilgit Baltistan or any part of Kashmir under their control.

As you saw in the program, the Pandits are ready to support the valley muslims on every issue, removal of AFSPA, HR violations, multicultural society and all that, but the onething they can't support is secession.

I would go further and say that Indians from all across the board would support the KAshmiris if the give up the rhetoric of secession. Every Indian barring some right wing nutjobs would sympathise with the Kashmiris in the valley, but when secession is raised as a religious struggleas Geelani does, it becomes a losing battle precisely because this is UnIslamic. The idea of establishing a political Islamicstate is deviant innovation and bound to fail.

That is why the proposals on region wise plebiscite or district-wise plebiscite are a valid proposal.

And to turn your argument around, why should a very small minority of Hindu Pandits be the reason that the majority of Kashmiris are denied their right to self-determination?

Gilgit-Baltistan, despite Indian propaganda on the issue, is not going to vote for India in a plebiscite (especially with the new G-B autonomy package) - the region's peoples lent their support to Pakistani forces in 1947, and the region has been sending its sons into the military for a long time now.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

@civfanatic

I can understand why Kashmiri Pandits are uncomfortable to return to the valley, when even non-kashmir govt, employees like railway employees are not comfortable to return.

Woudl you deny the fact that that if only the valley which is 5 million people andconsistsof less than 10% of the geographical area of the entire state of J&K state want independance and the rest of the parts don't then it is non-viable?

The reality is that Pakistan is not parting away with Gilgit Baltistan or any part of Kashmir under their control.

As you saw in the program, the Pandits are ready to support the valley muslims on every issue, removal of AFSPA, HR violations, multicultural society and all that, but the onething they can't support is secession.

I would go further and say that Indians from all across the board would support the KAshmiris if the give up the rhetoric of secession. Every Indian barring some right wing nutjobs would sympathise with the Kashmiris in the valley, but when secession is raised as a religious struggleas Geelani does, it becomes a losing battle precisely because this is UnIslamic. The idea of establishing a political Islamicstate is deviant innovation and bound to fail.

Thanks for your post. first of all I would totally condemn this threat by the Taliban inspired fanatics. The Kashmiri independence struggle has suffered a lot from these fanatics and has actually given excuse to Indian state for its continued military operations.

People making such threats are more loyal to that extremist ideology that was imported from Saudi Arabia during the cold war. Although I would blame psywarfare of the Indian intelligence agencies but totally ignoring the Wahabi influence in the Kashmiri militants wont be right..
It is only natural that such groups would get encouragements from the antics of the TTP operatives. Hence what we see is an attempt of sabotaging the freedom struggle and converting it into a movement of talibanization. Kashmir pundist had been supportive of the freedom movement but what had been happening in the recent times at the hands of some militant organisations has only damaged the cause.

Sadly the 2 countries are condemned into this confrontation that was caused by the unjust marking of the borders by the British Empire and how the Kashmiri people were denied to exercise their vote.
Ironic, that the west teaches us the ways of democracy, mocks and criticises our customs and when the eventual results doesn’t suit it. Then it crucifies all the moral principals of democracy and free will.

I agree to some of your points specially the matter of secession. If we have the moral courage then we will have to give and take and come to a middle ground. But the wishes of the Kashmiris are of main importance. But you so rightly pointed out the demographic disparities.

 

[magg]

The focus is primarily on allowing for a plebiscite - that inherently means that the Pandits and whoever else is in J&K would also have to vote. AFAIK, Pakistanis have said nothing about the Pandits or non-Muslims in J&K not having a voice.

In fact I have often pointed out that the UN can undertake a process of verifying and registering both the Kashmiri pandits as well as the millions of Muslim Kashmiri immigrants in Europe, so that both parties are able to cast their vote.

There can be no question of plebiscite now as Pakistan has resorted to terrorism and psychological war. The plebiscite as a option could have been employed if both India and Pakistan tried to resolve the issue peacefully.

However since Pak has tried to islamised Kashmir and planted non kashmiris in P_O_K to change the shia-sunni status that existed prior to it's occupation as well as drove the non muslims out of Indian Administered Kashmir, there is no such option valid uptill now. The use of forced to occupy kashmir has breached the agreed terms and a new ground needs to be set for it's resolution.

May be if Pak gets the UN to have a plebiscite in Gilgit-Baltistan and kashmir, we can consider the request, otherwise it is not on table.

One letter and a few acts by extremists do no mean the entire separatist movement, religious or ethnic, subscribes to such positions.

And what about the mass killings of kashmiri pandits ? Even on the day Bill Clinton arrived in New Delhi, there was mass murder of Sikhs in kashmir. Moreover the surrendered terrorist groups have already told about how the ISI was killing pandits, sikhs and shias to change the demography of Kashmir.

Also do tell why have all those groups who were part of plan in the 80's, no longer fighting and have abdicated violence ?. Why is LeT, a punjabi dominated terrorist group, the only formidable force in Kashmir now ?

 

[Justin Joseph]

YouTube - Government agencies Behind Harrasment of Sikhs in Valley "Hurriyat"

It’s amazing that for past 20 years of violence nobody asked Sikhs to embrace Islam and now when India has been left with no other ploy to malign independence movement very conveniently this BS appears . Last ditch effort by Indian intelligence agencies to paint independence movement as communal.

Because the Sikhs are the largest minority group in valley as they have killed Hindus and make them leave valley now its the turn of Sikhs.

But all of their plans will fall like they are falling from 1947.

Its just as soon as India get rid of Manmohan singh you will see a sea change.

 

[LaBong]

Kashmir struggle is purely religious, there is no other way of explaining it.

First of all, historically independence struggle have been fought with a foreign invading power over a piece of territory which has been forcefully taken for economic exploitation, depriving the natives most basic rights. In case of Kashmir India does not "economically exploit" Kashmir. India is not taking anything from Kashmir, there's nothing to take out actually; rather it's pumping massive amount to 'buy' loyalty though I'm not sure if this money is used in development work or ultimately lands up to wrong hand. Kashmiris enjoy privileges over property ownership thus effectively making them "super citizen" rather than inferior ones.

Both Mughals and British were outsiders, but Sikh or Marathas war with Mughals wasn't independence struggle, India's fight with England was.

 

[civfanatic]

@civfanatic if you are from Indian Kashmir. I have few questions for you. Hope you don't run away.

No, I don't live in Indian Kashmir I live in Indian Occupied Kashmir

1) Why Kashmiri's started stone pelting on Amarnath land issue? Do you think talk was not the way?

It is amazing to see such a reductionist approach where Our every struggle is denigrated as stone pelting . What you were forced to see by your media is not the whole story. The whole story is like this the story about Amaranth land transfer started to surface around late April 2008 there were lot of petitions and appeals to Government to stop the land transfer but the government remained adamant and in fact the then governor Sinha ridiculed the petitions as being motivated by vested interests . It was around june when people began to come on streets to register their protest . When Govt used violence to curb these protests the guys had no other option but to take on stone pelting . So government had a huge window of opportunity to resolve the controversy amicably but it decided not to do so. So to blame Kashmiris for resorting to stone pelting instead of talking is unfair.

2) Why you guys start pelting stone instead of talking.

Answer is as given above Stone pelting is a reaction when peaceful protests are not allowed .

3) Why did you kicked out Hindus? I do not need a reply they can come back.
more to come...

It is not as black & white as you assume . Kashmiri pundits left in circumstance’s for which a complex set of factors was responsible. Of course one of contributing factors was around 200 killings of Kashmiri pundits by Kashmiri militants and we in Kashmir must take part of that blame . Having said that I want say one more thing when armed insurgency started Kashmiri militants killed people who were perceived to be close to India and that these included Muslims . However I want to concede that a substantial number might have been motivated by religious intentions. The GOI and pundit elite used these killings to create a state of fear among pundits and arranged for their migration from Kashmir . Hence a substantial amount of blame for Kashmiri pundit migration must be appropriated by GOI and Pundit elite also.

 

[magg]

No, I don't live in Indian Kashmir I live in Indian Occupied Kashmir

Nah, you are not.

When Govt used violence to curb these protests the guys had no other option but to take on stone pelting .

Firstly, the stones were never there in such large numbers as the security forces cleaned the roads of any stone after first few days. They were transported there by ISI agents to stir the protesters to go violent. ISI agents among the crowd used to start the process as they are doing now.

The Amarnath land was never a issue with the common people as the Amarnath yatra generates the economy of the muslims around there. The only source of those muslims income come from the yatris. So granting land for the same could never had been converted into a big issue of people v/s govt as local kashmiris get their employment from it. The issue was created for vested interests of instigating violence in a relatively peaceful kashmir since 2006.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

May be if Pak gets the UN to have a plebiscite in Gilgit-Baltistan and kashmir, we can consider the request, otherwise it is not on table.

Oh for sure any time. by the way its not you who would decide if the Kashmiris can exercise their right or not.
you just shot yourself on the foot by agreeing to it

And what about the mass killings of kashmiri pandits ? Even on the day Bill Clinton arrived in New Delhi,

what are you talking about? mass murder? come on. your security forces kill more people in fake encounters everyday. no need to exagerate things

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Firstly, the stones were never there in such large numbers as the security forces cleaned the roads of any stone after first few days. They were transported there by ISI agents to stir the protesters to go violent. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.

hahaha

you just mde my day.. what are you sniffing these days..