Kashmir | News & Discussions.

[civfanatic]

@civfanatic

I can understand why Kashmiri Pandits are uncomfortable to return to the valley, when even non-kashmir govt, employees like railway employees are not comfortable to return.

Woudl you deny the fact that that if only the valley which is 5 million people andconsistsof less than 10% of the geographical area of the entire state of J&K state want independance and the rest of the parts don't then it is non-viable?

The reality is that Pakistan is not parting away with Gilgit Baltistan or any part of Kashmir under their control.

As you saw in the program, the Pandits are ready to support the valley muslims on every issue, removal of AFSPA, HR violations, multicultural society and all that, but the onething they can't support is secession.

I would go further and say that Indians from all across the board would support the KAshmiris if the give up the rhetoric of secession. Every Indian barring some right wing nutjobs would sympathise with the Kashmiris in the valley, but when secession is raised as a religious struggleas Geelani does, it becomes a losing battle precisely because this is UnIslamic. The idea of establishing a political Islamicstate is deviant innovation and bound to fail.

Ejaz , I know Aditya koul very well and his association Roots in Kashmir and panun kashmir which are like kashmiri franchise of RSS and VHP . But that is not the main point . The main point is nationalist aspiration of Kashmir if kashmiri pandits are not comfortable with that in ok but they can't have a veto over our aspirations . Isn't it selfish on thier part to demand that 97% of population toe thier line ?

Woudl you deny the fact that that if only the valley which is 5 million people andconsistsof less than 10% of the geographical area of the entire state of J&K state want independance and the rest of the parts don't then it is non-viable?

I can't say anything about it ,it is for other regions to decide for themselves whether they are ok with status quo or not . Kashmir is not and i hope it is clear in India . Kashmir wants freedom and that means right to choose b/w India , pakistan or independence and it is too early to call what would be final disposition and whether that would be viable or not .

 

[magg]

Isn't it selfish on thier part to demand that 97% of population toe thier line ?

Not 97% but less than 10%. Read a recent study done by a british group for updating your knowledge. Most people want employment rather than any kind of freedom.
By the way if the question is between India, Pak or Freedom then first free the part given by Pak to China which is a third of P_O_K. If and when you guys free the part occupied by China, you can discuss the Pak, India or Freedom option. I have never seen any kashmiri raise a voice against China occupied Kashmir, although every man in this world would fight for even a single inch of it's territory to be occupied by any other. This shows that the Kashmiris are being brainwashed by the ISI, so that they never raise a voice against China.

 

[civfanatic]

Not 97% but less than 10%. Read a recent study done by a british group for updating your knowledge. Most people want employment rather than any kind of freedom.
By the way if the question is between India, Pak or Freedom then first free the part given by Pak to China which is a third of P_O_K. If and when you guys free the part occupied by China, you can discuss the Pak, India or Freedom option. I have never seen any kashmiri raise a voice against China occupied Kashmir, although every man in this world would fight for even a single inch of it's territory to be occupied by any other. This shows that the Kashmiris are being brainwashed by the ISI, so that they never raise a voice against China.

You are completly berfet of any logic ...According to you logic I should protest for a piece of land where not a single blade of grass grows acc to you first pm rather than protest against India which occupies every street , every field of town I call home .

 

[IBRIS]

Because the Sikhs are the largest minority group in valley as they have killed Hindus and make them leave valley now its the turn of Sikhs.

But all of their plans will fall like they are falling from 1947.

They are already starting to fall apart. Today there was an urgent meeting called in Punjab by MLA's and MP's, Just how to handle such situations in time of crisis. As i mentioned earlier such adventures by separatist's or whoever wants to play dirty will have to face the consequences. Punjab government is no ones pawn and they will be watching this very closely, because it will directly involve Punjab Gov't intervention or would face an exile in next election. days are gone when you could do what you wanted in the name of religion to spread hatred among indigenous inhabitants. Sikh's will keep Punjab Gov't on there toes over this development. It won't be like 1987-88 where GOI's response was bit late.

Religious bhaichara still exists among majority of Kashmiri's. so, let's pray that day will never come when kashmir is split over religion.

 

[Hulk]

@civfanatic
1) Why did the Amarnath board cannot have land for temporary use. Does Hindus not have right to perform their religious duties? Why did no one approached court or tried to settle matter there, the land was going nowhere and hence no provocation for stone pelting. Just because government does not like your views does not you start behaving uncivilized. Many Indians lost all respect for Kashmiri's as this was seen as attack on Hindu faith, stopping Hindus from their rights.
2) Before 89 what kind of freedom you did not had, leave country part. Were you not free to move, speake, buy what kind of freedom you did not had to start killimg

 

[civfanatic]

@civfanatic
1) Why did the Amarnath board cannot have land for temporary use. Does Hindus not have right to perform their religious duties? Why did no one approached court or tried to settle matter there, the land was going nowhere and hence no provocation for stone pelting. Just because government does not like your views does not you start behaving uncivilized. Many Indians lost all respect for Kashmiri's as this was seen as attack on Hindu faith, stopping Hindus from their rights.

It was not an attack on hindu faith but a defence against an attempt by Indian State to change demography in J&K . That was the perception in kashmir . Whether that perception was correct or not is another topic and would derail the current thread . If you want to discuss that start another thread .

2) Before 89 what kind of freedom you did not had, leave country part. Were you not free to move, speake, buy what kind of freedom you did not had to start killimg

89 was start of armed struggle but the demand of azaadi had been constant feature of Kashmirs politics right since 27th oct 1947. We resisted with every available means and in 1989 that means was gun .

 

[Bhairava]

For all those Indians complaining about the 'ethnic cleansing', it has been going on since the Maharaja, but I don't see any Indian members talking about that. I believe that was one of the worst, if not worst cases of oppression in South Asia. Now, the Sikh's and Hindu's were of a higher 'class' at that time, and as you can understand wounds from that era would still have their marks on Kashmir. This in turn causes a level of 'divide' among the Kashmiri communities where some muslims feel hostility towards the Hindu/Sikh community. What I find sad in this case is that, nobody was prosecuted over the oppression of Kashmiri muslims and this was the biggest oppression/genocide in modern South Asian history. The same pattern must not be followed with the Sikh's and Hindu's, those that oppress them must be punished accordingly if not it will only lead to a cycle of violence.

The Kashmiri leaders need to work towards unity between the different communities in Kashmir. We, Kashmiris are the victims of religious divide and the youth must not fall into this disgusting buissness. I find that any 'freedom fighter' that oppresses a Hindu or Sikh is nearly as worst as the Indian Army. Another sad thing is, that the religious divide is still happening. The majority Hindu (then Sikh) Indian army is oppressing the muslims and the youth can sometimes place their hate at the wrong place.

Kashmir is for Kashmiris, not Hindus, Sikhs or Muslims.

How can you justify etnic cleansing now just because it happened to the Muslims in the distant past ?(also show me proof for that)

And by that same logic are not the Hindus and Sikhs justified by the wounds and scars left by the Muslim invaders in the past 600 years.?


I dont believe in this and if u believe in this tit-for-tat then this cycle will go on forever.

And I also noticed a line in your post - Hindu and Sikh Majority Indian Army harasses Muslims - just because Muslims dont join in the Army doesnt mean they are not allowed to.Understand the difference.

Also given 87% of the Indian Population is non-Islamic they are bound to majority in the Armed forces too/

 

[Bhairava]

It was not an attack on hindu faith but a defence against an attempt by Indian State to change demography in J&K . That was the perception in kashmir . Whether that perception was correct or not is another topic and would derail the current thread . If you want to discuss that start another thread .

Then that perception was completely devoid logic and another example of how u people are being completely misled by your so-called-leaders.

How can the Indian governent change the demography with pilgrims who will be there for just the yatra.?

And if it was the intention to change the demography - then I guess India would have long ago scrapped the Article 370 of the Indian Constitution that grants special status to Kashmir.

If it had thought so we have enough of our citizens to change the demography in 1 year.But we dont think so.

89 was start of armed struggle but the demand of azaadi had been constant feature of Kashmirs politics right since 27th oct 1947. We resisted with every available means and in 1989 that means was gun .

I havent heard of protests in the 70 s and the 80 s .In fact we culd defeat the Op.Gibralter only because the native Kashmiris informed the Indian Army of the presence of infiltrating Pakistani Spec forces.

 

[Hulk]

@civfanatic How can the demographics be changed? If your perception was wrong whoes fault is that? Also similarly why you guys resort to stone pelting and rioting wihtout waiting for facts?
Two more cases I know.
1) Sophain rape case, later proved rape never happened.
2) Murder by friend balmed on Army.

Also you did not replied to my early question.
What freedom u did not had before 89, do not tell me about freedom struggle. My point is u had more freedom then rest of India and just because some people were religious brainwashed they were finding excuse to fight.

 

[civfanatic]

Then that perception was completely devoid logic and another example of how u people are being completely misled by your so-called-leaders.

How can the Indian governent change the demography with pilgrims who will be there for just the yatra.?

And if it was the intention to change the demography - then I guess India would have long ago scrapped the Article 370 of the Indian Constitution that grants special status to Kashmir.


If it had thought so we have enough of our citizens to change the demography in 1 year.But we dont think so.

.

I already said in that post whether such perception was correct or not can be debated .But since it would derail the current thread it needs to discussed in seprate thread . This was written in simple english , I wonder why were you unable to comprehend ?

I havent heard of protests in the 70 s and the 80 s .In fact we culd defeat the Op.Gibralter only because the native Kashmiris informed the Indian Army of the presence of infiltrating Pakistani Spec forces.

If you were aware of kashmirs history you would have desisted from writting this puerile stuff.Let me just mention name of one movement led by shiekh abdullah ....plebicite front

 

[Bhairava]

I already said in that post whether such perception was correct or not can be debated .But since it would derail the current thread it needs to discussed in seprate thread . This was written in simple english , I wonder why were you unable to comprehend ?

OR rather it is very much relevant to the current thread.This thread is about the demography in Kashmir and I dont think I went offtopic there.

There has been a concerted attempt to make this movement a religious movement and dont mind If I tell you that by making it as one you are just shooting yourself in the foot.

Of all the reasons,the division of Kashmir based on idealogy is definitely not possible/permissible as it will take away the very definition of India as a secular state where all religions co-exist.

 

[civfanatic]

@civfanatic How can the demographics be changed? If your perception was wrong whoes fault is that? Also similarly why you guys resort to stone pelting and rioting wihtout waiting for facts?

Whether that perception was correct or not is another topic and would derail the current thread . If you want to discuss that start another thread . Its amazing that i had to post this three times .I have mentioned earlier also but I will reitrate that stone pelting occurs becuase peacefull protests are not allowed to occur . But if you still want to hang on to your beliefs im happy . Stone pelting is just minor part of protests but Indian media would want to project it as something as end in itself

Two more cases I know.

1) Sophain rape case, later proved rape never happened.

Who proved that Indian CBI ? A coverup by CBI which people reject completly

2) Murder by friend balmed on Army.

What do you expect in place where hundreds of fake killings have taken place . The fact is that within half an hour of polices solving the case any protests taking place died down becuase we in kashmir have not lost our rationality .We can still diffrentiate and discrimnate between right a wrong.

Also you did not replied to my early question.
What freedom u did not had before 89, do not tell me about freedom struggle. My point is u had more freedom then rest of India and just because some people were religious brainwashed they were finding excuse to fight.

We have been demanding the biggest freedom in world that is self determination and are still fighting for that .

 

[Bhairava]

Whether that perception was correct or not is another topic and would derail the current thread . If you want to discuss that start another thread . Its amazing that i had to post this three times .I have mentioned earlier also but I will reitrate that stone pelting occurs becuase peacefull protests are not allowed to occur . But if you still want to hang on to your beliefs im happy . Stone pelting is just minor part of protests but Indian media would want to project it as something as end in itself

Who proved that Indian CBI ? A coverup by CBI which people reject completly

Ok who else you want to believe.??please dont say some brainwashed Hurriyat leader..we cannot accept them.

What do you expect in place where hundreds of fake killings have taken place . The fact is that within half an hour of polices solving the case any protests taking place died down becuase we in kashmir have not lost our rationality .We can still diffrentiate and discrimnate between right a wrong.

Mate if you can agree with the police when they say about fake killings,then why not agree with the same police when they say that the girls were not raped,but rather they drowned.
Hypocrisy.

We have been demanding the biggest freedom in world that is self determination and are still fighting for that .

Sorry to say.But you unfortunaltely guys are sitting on a stategic piece of land and India cannot afford to let go of you.

 

[civfanatic]

Can you explain, if possible without resorting to too much emotional vomit, how did Kashmiris earn their 'right to self-determination'?

United Nations Security Council Resolution 47, adopted on April 21, 1948,

 

[civfanatic]

Mate if you can agree with the police when they say about fake killings,then why not agree with the same police when they say that the girls were not raped,but rather they drowned.
Hypocrisy.

We didn't believe in police we believed in evidence given by police .