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Kashmir Issue - Choose a Mediator

Which neutral country would you prefer as a mediator between India and Pakistan

  • USA

    Votes: 3 15.8%
  • U.K.

    Votes: 2 10.5%
  • Japan

    Votes: 3 15.8%
  • Russia

    Votes: 1 5.3%
  • China

    Votes: 9 47.4%
  • Germany

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • France

    Votes: 1 5.3%
  • Germany

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Australia

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Iran

    Votes: 2 10.5%

  • Total voters
    19
If only we learnt from our own mistakes my friend, if only. We have a very short collective memory as a society.
Not WE. This is human nature. Lessons can't be learnt. They can only be experienced.

But I don't think India and Pakistan will ever fight a real war. Pakistan is too fragmented and unstable to sustain it in the long run. It has a greater chance of getting devoured by the ISIS even. But all out war with India is something that Pakistan won't be able to do. A few random nukes on India by a dying state - that is the greatest possibility.
 
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The fact remains that talks with Pakistan (with or without mediator) will yield a big zero, unless Pakistan has a major change of heart and policies on ground or you are willing to hand them Kashmir on a silver platter
 
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1. We spend precious resources (human, economic and political) in Kashmir because of threat from Pakistan which can be better utilized for development.

2. Army deployment in Kashmir has created a paradoxical solution - Army is there to kill terrorist but it is deployment of army itself which is making more militants.

3. People of Kashmir are not happy - Period

4. Enmity with Pakistan is denying us the precious short access to Afghanistan and CAR.

5. Huge market of 200 million people is present right in our background with whom we share cultural, lingual, religious and ethnic ties. If our problems are solved we can turn into biggest supplier for Pakistan.

6. Arms race and existential threat of nuclear destruction.

7. Rationale for Pakistan to keep sending terrorist or as they say providing moral support to freedom fighters.

8. Closure for 180 Millions of our own Muslim Citizens

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Wow, you blindsided with this monstrosity, mate!

You are absolutely right that Indians would have problem with this, and rightly so! Let me try to rebuke you, point by point!

1. We spend precious resources (human, economic and political) in Kashmir because of threat from Pakistan which can be better utilized for development.

What makes you so sure that everything will return to normal after you have handed over the keys of Kashmir to Pakistan?


2. Army deployment in Kashmir has created a paradoxical solution - Army is there to kill terrorist but it is deployment of army itself which is making more militants.

Are you even for real mate? Are you even serious when you say, it is the ARMY deployment that is making more terrorists? Do you want me to remind you WHY the army had to be deployed in the first place and what was the situation there before the ARMY had to be rushed overnight?

On side note, I think it is the success of Pakistani propaganda machinery if saner Indians like you start to believe that Indian army deployment is making more terrorists!


3. People of Kashmir are not happy - Period

Many people at many other places are unhappy. So?

Happiness is a state of mind, and there is no guarantee that you will attain Nirvana as soon as the flags are changed. It is NOT as if Pakistan is the place to go if you wanted to be happy!

Give them some time, they might as well get used to live in India and still be happy.


4. Enmity with Pakistan is denying us the precious short access to Afghanistan and CAR.

I tell you this much. The access to Afghanistan and CAR has been overstated and exaggerated. I mean, we are doing perfectly fine even without access to Afghanistan and CAR.

What's the point of wishing for access which comes at such a huge cost?


5. Huge market of 200 million people is present right in our background with whom we share cultural, lingual, religious and ethnic ties. If our problems are solved we can turn into biggest supplier for Pakistan.

You completely ignored the fact that the Pakistanis forewent a market of 1.3 Billion for the sake of Kashmir! Is it really that hard to understand where their priorities lie?


6. Arms race and existential threat of nuclear destruction.

You must a die-hard optimist to believe that the Arms Race will stop the moment Kashmir sacrificed!

Out of curiousity, what do you think the Pakistanis will do with their hundred odd Nuclear Weapons after they get hold of Kashmir? Thow in the recycle bin?

And what will you do about China? Hand them Arunachal Pradesh?


7. Rationale for Pakistan to keep sending terrorist or as they say providing moral support to freedom fighters.

Nope! That is what a 'Islamic' country would do to a 'non-muslim' neighbor (which is even worse in case of a 'Hindu' India because our idol worship) even if there was no such thing as Kashmir.

Look around the world for clues, look what the Muslim majority nations do with their non-Muslim neighbors. And I don't blame them, they are only fulfilling their religious obligations!


8. Closure for 180 Millions of our own Muslim Citizens

I must say, this last point of yours, has to take the cake of all! What does this even mean mate? What kind of closure?

To be fair to my Muslim country men, I have never heard one sane Muslim, outside Kashmir, saying that Kashmir is an unfinished business. So please stop misrepresenting them.
 
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Not WE. This is human nature. Lessons can't be learnt. They can only be experienced.

But I don't think India and Pakistan will ever fight a real war. Pakistan is too fragmented and unstable to sustain it in the long run. It has a greater chance of getting devoured by the ISIS even. But all out war with India is something that Pakistan won't be able to do. A few random nukes on India by a dying state - that is the greatest possibility.

War will not happen I agree, Pakistan will only improve from its current predicament is my assessment regarding the other part. ISIS is not a huge issue unless their ruling establishment turns suicidal and actually ties up with them.

What's my ideology?

I won't derail this thread, suffice to say I have seen people close to me suffer by the hands of Ranvir Sena
 
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Pakistan will only improve from its current predicament is my assessment regarding the other part.
Nope. Pakistan will go steadily down. Slowly. But steadily. PDF is not the best place to judge them. The most elite, rich and liberal folks have access to Internet. Most of them are even expats.
 
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Wow, you blindsided with this monstrosity, mate!

You are absolutely right that Indians would have problem with this, and rightly so! Let me try to rebuke you, point by point!

1. We spend precious resources (human, economic and political) in Kashmir because of threat from Pakistan which can be better utilized for development.

What makes you so sure that everything will return to normal after you have handed over the keys of Kashmir to Pakistan?


2. Army deployment in Kashmir has created a paradoxical solution - Army is there to kill terrorist but it is deployment of army itself which is making more militants.

Are you even for real mate? Are you even serious when you say, it is the ARMY deployment that is making more terrorists? Do you want me to remind you WHY the army had to be deployed in the first place and what was the situation there before the ARMY had to be rushed overnight?

On side note, I think it is the success of Pakistani propaganda machinery if saner Indians like you start to believe that Indian army deployment is making more terrorists!


3. People of Kashmir are not happy - Period

Many people at many other places are unhappy. So?

Happiness is a state of mind, and there is no guarantee that you will attain Nirvana as soon as the flags are changed. It is NOT as if Pakistan is the place to go if you wanted to be happy!

Give them some time, they might as well get used to live in India and still be happy.


4. Enmity with Pakistan is denying us the precious short access to Afghanistan and CAR.

I tell you this much. The access to Afghanistan and CAR has been overstated and exaggerated. I mean, we are doing perfectly fine even without access to Afghanistan and CAR.

What's the point of wishing for access which comes at such a huge cost?


5. Huge market of 200 million people is present right in our background with whom we share cultural, lingual, religious and ethnic ties. If our problems are solved we can turn into biggest supplier for Pakistan.

You completely ignored the fact that the Pakistanis forewent a market of 1.3 Billion for the sake of Kashmir! Is it really that hard to understand where their priorities lie?


6. Arms race and existential threat of nuclear destruction.

You must a die-hard optimist to believe that the Arms Race will stop the moment Kashmir sacrificed!

Out of curiousity, what do you think the Pakistanis will do with their hundred odd Nuclear Weapons after they get hold of Kashmir? Thow in the recycle bin?

And what will you do about China? Hand them Arunachal Pradesh?


7. Rationale for Pakistan to keep sending terrorist or as they say providing moral support to freedom fighters.

Nope! That is what a 'Islamic' country would do to a 'non-muslim' neighbor (which is even worse in case of a 'Hindu' India because our idol worship) even if there was no such thing as Kashmir.

Look around the world for clues, look what the Muslim majority nations do with their non-Muslim neighbors. And I don't blame them, they are only fulfilling their religious obligations!


8. Closure for 180 Millions of our own Muslim Citizens

I must say, this last point of yours, has to take the cake of all! What does this even mean mate? What kind of closure?

To be fair to my Muslim country men, I have never heard one sane Muslim, outside Kashmir, saying that Kashmir is an unfinished business. So please stop misrepresenting them.

A for effort but you have completely missed my point. I advice you to read my posts further along where I have clarified what would this mediation/arbitration entail and what are the red lines.

No one is handing over the Keys of Kashmir or Arunachal Pradesh to any one. I am not asking for ceding one inch of our territory but simply formalizing LoC to IB which would close this sad chapter and stop any further drama on Kashmir. Pakistan will have lot to gain too - Trade with India, Stop Bankruptcy in order to gain military parity with India, may be gurantees on water resources, freedom to concentrate on evils within and hence forth.

If you think IA deployment and AFSPA in Kashmir is not having adverse effects then you have your head buried in sand.

No one will throw nuclear weapons away, they will remain a source for deterrent. Why did France and UK did not throw away their nukes despite having minimal threat perception in pre Putin and post Soviet Era Russia

Incentive is clear to both sides. I am afraid you have not many Muslims who serious reservation on Kashmir, I have hence my point about closure. We can agree to disagree on this point.
 
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Nope. Pakistan will go steadily down. Slowly. But steadily. PDF is not the best place to judge them. The most elite, rich and liberal folks have access to Internet. Most of them are even expats.

In fact India should do its bit to speeden the downfall, this will really solve the Kashmir tangle for us
 
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Nope. Pakistan will go steadily down. Slowly. But steadily. PDF is not the best place to judge them. The most elite, rich and liberal folks have access to Internet. Most of them are even expats.

I am not basing my judgement on PDF, please don't think me to be so naive.

I am an analyst by profession and my assessment of Pakistan is based on ground realities
 
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A for effort but you have completely missed my point. I advice you to read my posts further along where I have clarified what would this mediation/arbitration would entail and what are the red lines.

No one is handing over the Keys of Kashmir or Arunachal Pradesh to any one. I am not asking for ceeding one inch of our territory but simply formalizing LoC to IB which would close this sad chapter and stop any further drama on Kashmir. Pakistan will have lot to gain too - Trade with India, Stop Bankruptcy in order to gain military parity with India, may be gurantees on water resources, freedom to concentrate on evils within and hence forth.

Incentive is clear to both sides. I am afraid you have not many Muslims who serious reservation on Kashmir, I have hence my point about closure. We can agree to disagree on this point.

Haven't you seen enough in the last 69 years to understand that Pakistan doesn't want trade, talks, love, yadla yadla. As you mentioned we won't give a single inch of our land and they won't stop claiming it, let's learn to live with that
 
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A for effort but you have completely missed my point. I advice you to read my posts further along where I have clarified what would this mediation/arbitration would entail and what are the red lines.

No one is handing over the Keys of Kashmir or Arunachal Pradesh to any one. I am not asking for ceeding one inch of our territory but simply formalizing LoC to IB which would close this sad chapter and stop any further drama on Kashmir. Pakistan will have lot to gain too - Trade with India, Stop Bankruptcy in order to gain military parity with India, may be gurantees on water resources, freedom to concentrate on evils within
Actually when you started this thread you did want to compromise on territory as well. :) But that's fine, as long as it's what you ALONE want. :P
The LoC = IB formula is the present scenario. But Pakistan can't accept it. Even if a Govt says they accept the status quo, that would mean defeat in the hands of Hindu India. A surrender of Muslim land. And so on. This for generations who have grown with Hindu hatred - to some degree or other.

Secondly and more importantly, Pakistan will not survive peace with India. For Pakistan to exist, her enmity with India must exist. And for India to remain prosperous and relatively free from the ME crap, the existence of Pakistan is necessary.

I am an analyst by profession and my assessment of Pakistan is based on ground realities
Then your assessment is wrong. You have not been able to state why and how you have come to your conclusions. We have stated, with reasons, what we stated. You have not.

As an analyst, you need to be more objective and more of a realist than an utopian ahimsawadi.

In fact India should do its bit to speeden the downfall, this will really solve the Kashmir tangle for us
I am sure/I hope we are doing our bit.
 
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I am not basing my judgement on PDF, please don't think me to be so naive.

I am an analyst by profession and my assessment of Pakistan is based on ground realities

In fact the animosity with India harms Pakistan much more but they are in a self destruct mode, they will keep on seeking military equality with India which with their economy is impossible and if they over do it rest assured they will be the next USSR
 
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Then your assessment is wrong. You have not been able to state why and how you have come to your conclusions. We have stated, with reasons, what we stated. You have not.

As an analyst, you need to be more objective and more of a realist than an utopian ahimsawadi.

I have stated Pakistan is going to improve; I should have added caveats too I agree. The condition is Pakistan continues its operation to logical end which is elimination of all anti Pakistan forces and prevents further radicalization of youth

1. End stages of costly operation against anti - Pakistan terrorists.
2. Improving financial indicators.
3. Investment in infrastructure.
4. Improving security situation would give a jump start to industry.
5. Young and productive population
6. Continued Aid/investment from IMF, WB and incoming aid from AIIB

If Pakistan stops anti - India activities then I expect situation to further improve due to peace with India but there is little hope of that.
 
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Why??? What is wrong with Kashmir...I can still go to Jammu and Kashmir without any visa...and i do not icare est of things..as long as i do not need a visa??? Human crisis?? Give me a break...Kashmiri valley are the most patronised states with tax payers money...They should learn to work hard and study well to do good in exam rather than holding gun like a criminals...
 
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Why??? What is wrong with Kashmir...I can still go to Jammu and Kashmir without any visa...and i do not icare est of things..as long as i do not need a visa??? Human crisis?? Give me a break...Kashmiri valley are the most patronised states with tax payers money...They should learn to work hard and study well to do good in exam rather than holding gun like a criminals...

Seems like you missed the news of continuous shelling on border areas and death of Indian civilians.
 
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