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Kargil’s military success was converted into political defeat: Musharraf

Although I don't buy this military victory drumline that Ex President Musharraf like to beat, but I do think Kargil Was a big Failure on India's political and military leadership.

It was the perfect moment to do the same as done in 1965 and roll armor straight down the the plains and bring down the full might of our boots. The conflict should have been absolutely escalated, but BJP's right wing baggage ensured that political leadership did not wan't to even cross the LOC to blow up the fancy dress commando party.
 
Look he was not one of those 4 generals who knew abt the operation even gen mush has said that publicly while replying to his accusations. He was never trusted enough, thats probably why he is showing his frustration in such a manner which is at best awful and unprofessional. U maybe a fan of his but truth is that Kargil was a brilliant, swift and tactical mastery in mountain warfare.

Do you even know what his position at time of Kargil conflict ? He was DG analysis at ISI at that time.Either you have no idea how much goes through DG analysis or you are willfully ignoring it to suit your narrative Both you and Musharraf suffers from one thing. Arrogance. Arrogance killed our soldiers. Arrogance cause hindsight and ignored IAF could jumped into equation and unbalance it completly. The plan would have been brilliant if there was no IAF involved. But since it was, The general threw away the life of soldiers. And how many times he changed the kargil plan during conflict shows how much the plan was of brilliance, not !
 
Pakistanis need to stop buying into the propaganda that Kargil was a failure. It absolutely wasn't. Fact is, to this day Pakistan Army controls some of the most important strategic high points in Kargil. Indian propaganda states that all Pakistani army evacuated from Kargil, this isn't true. Also in Kargil, Pakistan inflicted multiple times higher casualty rate on Indian troops. This is the reason Indian army suppressed their battle records in Kargil and even flat out lied about fake encounters to credit themselves extra kills that never happened.
Which conflict haven't you lied about? Which war had a independent report published in Pakistan? After every failure which Military commander or dictator was indicted? And this narrative coming from a country that did not even own the dead bodies of it's own brave soldiers that laid down their lives for tier interests which was even more shameful than watching your brave soldiers being Blown up by IAF Planes and ARTY when rest of your shiny toys stood mum in silence....

If that is definition of victory,,,, i wish a hundred more of these to you.
 
Which conflict haven't you lied about? Which war had a independent report published in Pakistan? After every failure which Military commander or dictator was indicted? And this narrative coming from a country that did not even own the dead bodies of it's own brave soldiers that laid down their lives for tier interests which was even more shameful than watching your brave soldiers being Blown up by IAF Planes and ARTY when rest of your shiny toys stood mum in silence....

If that is definition of victory,,,, i wish a hundred more of these to you.
Oh please. You are high on Zee News. Even with IAF India was unable to take back the hills, in fact after it lost a MiG and chopper, Indian Air Force was sporadically used. It was political failure on civil government that caused the failure of the offensive, if our political leaders had a spine, we would still be sitting on those hills.
 
Do you even know what his position at time of Kargil conflict ? He was DG analysis at ISI at that time.Either you have no idea how much goes through DG analysis or you are willfully ignoring it to suit your narrative Both you and Musharraf suffers from one thing. Arrogance. Arrogance killed our soldiers. Arrogance cause hindsight and ignored IAF could jumped into equation and unbalance it completly. The plan would have been brilliant if there was no IAF involved. But since it was, The general threw away the life of soldiers. And how many times he changed the kargil plan during conflict shows how much the plan was of brilliance, not !
Doesn't that say a lot about threat analysis especially when India has used escalation in the past too.... every time you wan a localized conflict, India will escalate, it did the same in 65 where Brasstacks and searchlight response was not in akhnooor, but in plains of Punjab, If anything, that is one thing I regret that Indian military did not do in 99....

there is a saying "appreciate the situation, and not situate the appreciation" everytime pakistan goes into a conflict, they already have a pre-determined bullish framework of Indian response assumed, which is wrong on every account.
 
It was the perfect moment to do the same as done in 1965 and roll armor straight down the the plains and bring down the full might of our boots. The conflict should have been absolutely escalated, but BJP's right wing baggage ensured that political leadership did not wan't to even cross the LOC to blow up the fancy dress commando party.
Yes, and you would have burned every major Indian city in the process. India was afraid of escalating the conflict because the some people still retained their sanity, in fact they saved India from destruction.
 
Oh please. You are high on Zee News. Even with IAF India was unable to take back the hills, in fact after it lost a MiG and chopper, Indian Air Force was sporadically used. It was political failure on civil government that caused the failure of the offensive, if our political leaders had a spine, we would still be sitting on those hills.
sure sure.... ask that to your SSG guys sitting there.. they will absolutely agree to you and your brilliant analysis.
 
musharraf-890x395.jpg


KARACHI: Former military dictator General (r) Pervez Musharraf says it is country’s misfortune that it could not get capable leadership since he relinquished charge in 2008, ARY News reported.

Musharraf laments lack of “capable leadership” in Pakistan | ARY NEWS


Some people never change. This right here is one of them. Will someone tell him what actually happened when NS was called to DC? This genius (or not), was about to start a nuke war. Millions would've suffered and he thinks he had India by the neck!! He actually lost a few thousand Pakistani Army soldiers in this deal.

Why people have no connection with the truth anymore....????? He should be in jail for getting so many soldiers killed. This was the worst plan ever, the entire operation and if a war was to start afterwards, had NO air cover from the PAF. In fact, the PAF even mentioned in many reports that they didn't possess BVR weapons and going into a conflict would mean a massive loss for the PAF. Someone needs to remind Mushy. He's out of touch with real life (and has been for almost 7-8 years now).
 
Infact Nawaz saved many soldiers who were vulnerable to succumbed to Indian force. He did a great job by convincing US to intervene. I do not know what type of advantage Musharraf is talking about.
 
Do you even know what his position at time of Kargil conflict ? He was DG analysis at ISI at that time.Either you have no idea how much goes through DG analysis or you are willfully ignoring it to suit your narrative Both you and Musharraf suffers from one thing. Arrogance. Arrogance killed our soldiers. Arrogance cause hindsight and ignored IAF could jumped into equation and unbalance it completly. The plan would have been brilliant if there was no IAF involved. But since it was, The general threw away the life of soldiers. And how many times he changed the kargil plan during conflict shows how much the plan was of brilliance, not !

Hi,

The question about the lives of the soldiers was a big big concern----it was discussed over and over, but the gains were more important----.

A good military plan needs to change with the changing scenario---and it did---. Andas much as Pakistan wanted it to end---india wanted it to end faster than Pakistan----. All the indian ammunition for 155 mm big guns was gone----. They had to make fastrak procurement to take care of kargil issue---but enough to fight Pakistan on another front.

Pakistan's military's ammunition was intact to confront the indian military on the other front if needed---yes---air force was of major issue---for that reason the war did not escalate---.

India knew that it did not have bombs to lob into Pakistan---Pakistan knew it could not fight the indian air force---and Nawaz Sharif bowed his head down in front of Bill Clinton----.

I mean to say---look at the stupid indian kids over here----" why the indian army did not continue the advance "---

Some people never change. This right here is one of them. Will someone tell him what actually happened when NS was called to DC? This genius (or not), was about to start a nuke war. Millions would've suffered and he thinks he had India by the neck!! He actually lost a few thousand Pakistani Army soldiers in this deal.

Why people have no connection with the truth anymore....????? He should be in jail for getting so many soldiers killed. This was the worst plan ever, the entire operation and if a war was to start afterwards, had NO air cover from the PAF. In fact, the PAF even mentioned in many reports that they didn't possess BVR weapons and going into a conflict would mean a massive loss for the PAF. Someone needs to remind Mushy. He's out of touch with real life (and has been for almost 7-8 years now).

Sir,

Nawaz Sharif should be hanged for his cowardice---. Gutless man---as he was described by Bill Clinton in one of his interviews---.

Troops died---because that is what they signed for and that is what they are for----.

As I stated in my other post---indian military had run out of 155 mm rounds----they had to airlift them from south Africa on the run----but they were not enugh to fight a war with Pakistan which had all its ammunition intact----. Air force was the weak link for Pakistan----lack of ammunition a weak link for the indian military----.

It was the perfect moment to do the same as done in 1965 and roll armor straight down the the plains and bring down the full might of our boots. The conflict should have been absolutely escalated, but BJP's right wing baggage ensured that political leadership did not wan't to even cross the LOC to blow up the fancy dress commando party.

Hi,

Youngman,

You can only talk tough----read my other posts----your military ran out of heavy guns ammunition during kargil---. It airlifted some from south Africa----but there was not enough to fight with Pakistan----and pak military's ammo was intact.

It was your air force and the cowardice of Nawaz Sharif that saved the day for you---. If pak air force had an aota more strength and Nawaz bigger ballz---pak military could have walked in and india had no heavy artillery to stop the progress---.

No military can fight a war without heavy guns.

Now for 1965----name one European news paper that declared india as victorious of 1965 war or even close to it---.
 
@MastanKhan @MilSpec @Viper0011.

Kargil is just another event in the long trail of the Pakistan Army’s “conflict initiation.”

It was bound to end as all such events have with “conflict termination” by India

pak military could have walked in and india had no heavy artillery to stop the progress---.

You are just talking too much

Indian Army lobbed 2.5 LAKH shells in the Kargil war

We did buy ammunition but remember that we were ready to
EXPAND and escalate the War if it was necessary
on the International border

Our Strike corps were ready and so was our NAVY ready to blockade Karachi

Infact Pakistan was scared of escalation and was preparing its nukes
in FEAR of Indian Army STRIKE corps
 
Sir,

Nawaz Sharif should be hanged for his cowardice---. Gutless man---as he was described by Bill Clinton in one of his interviews---.
Troops died---because that is what they signed for and that is what they are for----.
As I stated in my other post---indian military had run out of 155 mm rounds----they had to airlift them from south Africa on the run----but they were not enugh to fight a war with Pakistan which had all its ammunition intact----. Air force was the weak link for Pakistan----lack of ammunition a weak link for the indian military----.

You are either misinformed of the actual situation or you don't have the entire story. Bill Clinton was the Commander in Chief of the most powerful military, who, per the history has never said no to military operations ordered by the President. If NS was such "gutless", how come the Military didn't keep advancing the front?

Civilians didn't matter back then, and had no business and authority into military affairs. So why even bother listening to NS? Why not just continue and announce the Marshal Law (or Martial Law like Martial Arts as I jokingly refer to these coupes in Pakistan). That way, NS didn't have to come back to Pakistan to be hanged, the military would continue the super smart operation to take over India and live would be great, right?

Well, as always, when the military in Pakistan effs it up, they send the Civilian guy to "take care of matters", they know that no military leader will be entertained by the West on equal, respectful terms as the West knows how the military rules in Pakistan. Even now, when IK was doing his silly sit ins, about 5 of your corps commanders wanted a coupe or to throw away NS. What stopped him? Was the powerful democracies trying to do good to Pakistan and the money that's been coming in and will come in. The military needed the funds so the deal was that NS gets to stay.......the military now has figured out that if the Civilians don't rule and grow the country, there may not be Gas to fill up tanks of vehicles and trailers to take tanks and other weapons to the war zone.

You referred to dead soldiers as "that's what they signed up for"....is that true? Throwing thousands of trained professionals in the name of a country, without a proper backup, airlift or safety plan, you just throw these people with families in as if they were excess human articles???? Common man, you got to have some respect for these soldiers who lost their lives for a military campaign which was as short lived as a two week vacation in the Western world.

Whether they were out of 155 MM ammo or not, they had a HUGE arsenal of the IAF. When NS wanted to seize fire with India, he was told that the IAF was ready to respond with some serious muscle, including the nuke option. What do you think a sane person, trying to save a nation and who was already working on building business and economy would do??? Knowing the air force would be destroyed like 80%, majority of which would never see the enemy jet due to the BVR weapons in IAF's arsenal,knowing that majority of the SSG were in Kargil and the numbers of these special forces were really low, so almost no special ops on other fronts, knowing that mobilizing and going to war with India, at that time when Pakistan had been dealing with sanctions, wouldn't produce jack, what do you think anyone with some brains would do?

There is a good movie called "Confidence", you should see it. In that movie, there is a gangster who tells the main character (Ed Burns), that "sport, you got style, and style could get you killed". I love this line and its applicable to Mushy. The guy had a serious style and power issue, but he was about to get millions of his countrymen killed out of his ego and senseless military campaign that didn't have any of the other two military branches working with him. That's style and it would've damaged 75% of the PAF and about over half the PN. Let alone the destruction to the country's economy and to its population.

@MastanKhan @MilSpec @Viper0011.

Kargil is just another event in the long trail of the Pakistan Army’s “conflict initiation.”

It was bound to end as all such events have with “conflict termination” by India

I agree with your entire post and its points BUT the line in bold, above. There are a lot of other conflicts that I've learned over the history of both India and Pakistan where India couldn't really do "conflict termination". I can start speaking but this may not be the right place for it.

But yes, Pakistan Army's adventurous nature in Kargil resulted in a LOT of loss and it barely avoided a huge war if it was to go that way. People think NS was "gutless", I think putting your ego behind and trying to still make peace with an enemy who's ready to start a full scale war, speaks volume of the matureness of this individual, who was thrown in by the Army to go cleanup the mess. Smart people avoid conflict and build nations, economies and then their defense forces.
 
Hi,

Welcome to the board----. For some people long term plans work and for others----short term goals are welcome. Long term planners cannot comprehend how the short term goalers get by---.

What Kargil proved for Pakistan is that Cold start doctrine will work in favor of Pakistan better than for India.

The long term plan is to keep those peaks that pak army is holding onto---.

Pakistan military struck the arch enemy when pak military was at its weakest and achieved it initial targets and goals and held on to what was important to them----.

Please---understand----there is no yelling and screaming from my side---.

If indian members are happy with what their military is telling them and what their govt is saying---then be it so----. I have no qualms with that----. I can only share my side of the information.

Just to Bust your Myths

A) Well , For Kargil , its is not a Cold start at all. Just for your information, PA captures unmanned Bunkers of IA which was left during winter.

Cold start is the Doctrine made by India after parliament which is real , India Self made mobile units armed with NBC protection , Choppers , Mobile SAM etc , In that Unit move in to PAK Defeat the small PA units which is deployed on the post and held the area .


B) If you don't know Kargil Object is to get the Tiger Hill and adjoining hills to watch NH1 , and do shelling so that Supply won't reach Siachen and IA Solider Due to hunger and PA walk unopposed.

It is the dream of PA since 20-30 Years which it can't take using is PAK best Commandos , which were killed / wiped out during raids in Siachen.


C) Which Peak is hold by PAK, non , Tiger and adjoining is the Height Peak which controls are entire region is under Indians , and which can easily target lower peaks from above.

When you say something come with prove / pic /etc ..... NO plane simple writing that we have done this and that which is not a ground won't make any difference.
 
The question about the lives of the soldiers was a big big concern----it was discussed over and over, but the gains were more important----.

A good military plan needs to change with the changing scenario---and it did---. Andas much as Pakistan wanted it to end---india wanted it to end faster than Pakistan----. All the indian ammunition for 155 mm big guns was gone----. They had to make fastrak procurement to take care of kargil issue---but enough to fight Pakistan on another front.

Pakistan's military's ammunition was intact to confront the indian military on the other front if needed---yes---air force was of major issue---for that reason the war did not escalate---.

India knew that it did not have bombs to lob into Pakistan---Pakistan knew it could not fight the indian air force---and Nawaz Sharif bowed his head down in front of Bill Clinton----.

I mean to say---look at the stupid indian kids over here----" why the indian army did not continue the advance "---
ok sir, assume we don't have 155 mm round , but war is not only about 155 mm round...No doubt Pak army can hold themselves fro some time. But if war escalate, major looser will be your navy and after that Air force...who didn't have any BVR missile...You are again assuming the safe box...like Mushi (your earlier general does does if we does India will respond only this...you general forget basic things in wat tactics " always expect unexpected".... Other thing you lost your solder for false and idiot planner...
 
You are either misinformed of the actual situation or you don't have the entire story. Bill Clinton was the Commander in Chief of the most powerful military, who, per the history has never said no to military operations ordered by the President. If NS was such "gutless", how come the Military didn't keep advancing the front?

Civilians didn't matter back then, and had no business and authority into military affairs. So why even bother listening to NS? Why not just continue and announce the Marshal Law (or Martial Law like Martial Arts as I jokingly refer to these coupes in Pakistan). That way, NS didn't have to come back to Pakistan to be hanged, the military would continue the super smart operation to take over India and live would be great, right?

Well, as always, when the military in Pakistan effs it up, they send the Civilian guy to "take care of matters", they know that no military leader will be entertained by the West on equal, respectful terms as the West knows how the military rules in Pakistan. Even now, when IK was doing his silly sit ins, about 5 of your corps commanders wanted a coupe or to throw away NS. What stopped him? Was the powerful democracies trying to do good to Pakistan and the money that's been coming in and will come in. The military needed the funds so the deal was that NS gets to stay.......the military now has figured out that if the Civilians don't rule and grow the country, there may not be Gas to fill up tanks of vehicles and trailers to take tanks and other weapons to the war zone.

You referred to dead soldiers as "that's what they signed up for"....is that true? Throwing thousands of trained professionals in the name of a country, without a proper backup, airlift or safety plan, you just throw these people with families in as if they were excess human articles???? Common man, you got to have some respect for these soldiers who lost their lives for a military campaign which was as short lived as a two week vacation in the Western world.

Whether they were out of 155 MM ammo or not, they had a HUGE arsenal of the IAF. When NS wanted to seize fire with India, he was told that the IAF was ready to respond with some serious muscle, including the nuke option. What do you think a sane person, trying to save a nation and who was already working on building business and economy would do??? Knowing the air force would be destroyed like 80%, majority of which would never see the enemy jet due to the BVR weapons in IAF's arsenal,knowing that majority of the SSG were in Kargil and the numbers of these special forces were really low, so almost no special ops on other fronts, knowing that mobilizing and going to war with India, at that time when Pakistan had been dealing with sanctions, wouldn't produce jack, what do you think anyone with some brains would do?

There is a good movie called "Confidence", you should see it. In that movie, there is a gangster who tells the main character (Ed Burns), that "sport, you got style, and style could get you killed". I love this line and its applicable to Mushy. The guy had a serious style and power issue, but he was about to get millions of his countrymen killed out of his ego and senseless military campaign that didn't have any of the other two military branches working with him. That's style and it would've damaged 75% of the PAF and about over half the PN. Let alone the destruction to the country's economy and to its population.

Hi,

You are riled up----. Your post is not balanced---.

There was nothing wrong with sending Sharif----the only problem was that Sharif did not have a backbone then---he still he does not have a back bone now. And for Bill Clinto----what was he going to do----just sit back and watch.
 
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