Kargil : Indian Army's operation "Vijay" was ineffective

[Windjammer]

Indian newspapers and their public believe--or say they believe--that the conflict in Dras-Kargil last year was a military victory for India. In fact, it was a war 'won' by briefings and a slavishly supportive media. The Indian public wanted to be assured of 'victory,' and every effort was made to provide that assurance. Kargil was disastrous for Pakistan in worldwide political terms, and was an important public relations coup for the Indian government, both internally (in the run-up to the election), and internationally. But militarily it was a shambles for India whose brave but ill-prepared soldiers suffered gravely and would have sustained even heavier casualties had the conflict continued. The prime minister of Pakistan was ordered by the president of the United States to withdraw his troops from a successful military operation and this was done in time to save the Vajpayee government from the wave of criticism that would have swamped it had the confrontation not been stopped.

Source: "War Drums are Beating" Brian Cloughley.

 

[Osiris]

correct..

as Dharka Dutt accruately reported the Indians were lobby hard behind the scenes to force Pakistan to withdraw.

''and a delicately nuanced diplomatic initiative to try and get the Americans to intervene.''

Kargil War: Barkha Dutt reveals unknown facts in her book This Unquiet Land - Stories from India's Fault Lines - Nagpur Today : Nagpur News

Nagpur Today : Nagpur News Kargil War: Barkha Dutt reveals unknown facts in her book This Unquiet Land - Stories from India's Fault Lines

www.nagpurtoday.in

Why?

In the field... the IAF was ineffectual. Shot down when it tried to hit PA positions, then resorted to high altitude bombing with laser guided bombs in a predicable flight path.. NLI simply relocated...and relocated again....

on the ground IA using inflexible and predictable tactics was slaughter by sniper fire, artillery fire, anti aircraft guns, and NLI soldiers who used bet with each other on how many Indians there going to wack each day.



read carefully what I wrote and think before you type.


excellent you confirm Kasier's credibility.

Kasier also said PAF is leagues ahead IAF training and blew Su-30 out of the sky.

he also said Indian Air Force is a liar. It is impossible to launch a R-77 and achieve as successful lock from the altitude the Abidlondon was flying


thanks for confirming!

If Indian army would have been ineffective, Pakistani prime minister would not be in Washington uninvited ..that too on American indipendence day, begging American President for mediation and ceasefire.

 

[Akatosh]

Unoccupied peak sneaked in 2000s.
That said 5353 isn't the only peak Pak took in 99. Google bunker ridge, dalu nag etc. Several such peaks were taken and retained by Pak.

Dalunang is in Pakistani hands since 198/88 as per your own Nasim Zehra book. Shangruti lies on Pak side.

India also took 5770 which was in Pak control since beginning of Siachen conflict

oh chabda beta, while you are reminiscing about your long lost glory of your lost peaks, we are violating your claimed sovereignty every single day, taking away multiple peaks including the highest peak from your incompetent army is just one example, we pump in infiltrators, China takes chunks out of your land, your sainiks are stranded on streets trying to barely survive against attacks from every direction. so instead of chest thumping your nonexistent bravado, why don't you start doing some serious investigations into why is your oversized and over funded military so ridiculously incompetent to the extent that you have to resort to social media to save your God dammed face!

Wrong it is we who are violating your claimed sovereignity every day by sitting on 5310, qamar sector, 5770, bhimbet post etc .

Point 5310 was an abandoned post on the pak side of the LoC. Its purpose is nowhere as great compared to 5353 which is approx 500m inside Indian territory as pinned out by praveen swahmy.

That coupled with the other 3 peaks we hold today.

So no. Again you still didn't win that war. Even after the ceasefire which you broke you still made a bigger loss.

Wrong. 5353 is right on LoC as you can see in the pic in the first page of this thread I posted.

 

[Jackdaws]

You're now ignoring the Syrian army in its own civil war?

So what civil war are you comparing it to?

 

[313ghazi]

So what civil war are you comparing it to?

Making random statements isn't going to make you any less wrong.

 

[Saudang]

a

130000 casualties? are you sure india's "thunderous" so called victory didn't come from smoking one too many of these?
View attachment 751804
please...smoke responsibly...apnay liyay, apnay desh ke liyay, apni janta ke liyay aur apnay fefday ke liyay!

As i said, the source of my data is the same as yours, while you claimed 30000 casualties

Now don't tell me that you were high on Afghan supply while typing that comment

 

[VkdIndian]

It wasn't a victory for you... At all

Your two Annas have no meaning here. A nation that has always tried to salvage lost situation with propaganda.Your country has been surviving on propaganda since independence,

1965: How Pakistan won the war of propaganda

For the past five decades, Pakistan has officially celebrated September 6 as ‘Defence Day’ in remembrance of its historic ‘victory’

nation.com.pk

Professional views and opinions are what count in the real world.

As far as death count goes your PM Nawaz had clearly accepted death of more than 4000+ NLI soldiers. Your word against your Ex-PM’s.

While you drum up smoke of victory there was nothing that a victor would do after a war.
1. NLI soldiers were recognised after many years. That too grudgingly.
2. Dead soldiers were left behind on those peaks.
3. Your Air Force clearly accepted that they weren’t in a situation to help you.
4. Your Army lied to the world about irregulars. But expected PAF to provide air support. PAF said wtf?
5. PN and PAF were not even aware about the extent of fiasco till it came out in open.
6. Your PM requested for a hearing in front of Clinton. Read what Clinton had to say about that meeting.

I have quoted professional on the matter of conflict as well as the outcome of that conflict. Your drumming up stories is meaningless. You want to remain in the dream world? Go ahead.

The world opinion is this:-

Kargil War

www.cs.mcgill.ca

Opinion of your own is this :-

The making of the Kargil disaster

Excerpts from Nasim Zehra's book, 'From Kargil To The Coup: Events That Shook Pakistan'.

www.dawn.com

Kargil war was a total disaster: Majeed Malik

IslamabadFormer federal minister Lt-Gen Abdul Majeed Malik, who is an eyewitness to major happenings that took place during the tenure of the second Nawaz Sharif government, says the Kargil...

www.thenews.com.pk

If there was an example required to describe DELUSIONAL, quite a few of you fit it perfectly.

 

[Tornado23]

Your two Annas have no meaning here. A nation that has always tried to salvage lost situation with propaganda.Your country has been surviving on propaganda since independence,

1965: How Pakistan won the war of propaganda

For the past five decades, Pakistan has officially celebrated September 6 as ‘Defence Day’ in remembrance of its historic ‘victory’

nation.com.pk

Professional views and opinions are what count in the real world.

As far as death count goes your PM Nawaz had clearly accepted death of more than 4000+ NLI soldiers. Your word against your Ex-PM’s.

While you drum up smoke of victory there was nothing that a victor would do after a war.
1. NLI soldiers were recognised after many years. That too grudgingly.
2. Dead soldiers were left behind on those peaks.
3. Your Air Force clearly accepted that they weren’t in a situation to help you.
4. Your Army lied to the world about irregulars. But expected PAF to provide air support. PAF said wtf?
5. PN and PAF were not even aware about the extent of fiasco till it came out in open.
6. Your PM requested for a hearing in front of Clinton. Read what Clinton had to say about that meeting.

I have quoted professional on the matter of conflict as well as the outcome of that conflict. Your drumming up stories is meaningless. You want to remain in the dream world? Go ahead.

The world opinion is this:- [emoji1313][emoji1313]

Kargil War

www.cs.mcgill.ca

If there was an example required to describe DELUSIONAL, quite a few of you fit it perfectly.

You still haven't countered my point of how op vijay was a failure.

All this keyboard warrioring and still you avoided the main course of the argument. How can op vijay be a success if neither of its objectives were achieved?

 

[Jackdaws]

think of this way...

an indian goes for a job interview.. and gives a classic malu interview ie fails it on technical and presentation level...

Making random statements isn't going to make you any less wrong.

Bringing up absurd anologies isn't going to help you.

 

[Bouncer]

from the horse's mouth...



"Sharif was reluctant to withdraw before the meeting with Clinton was announced (again, his problem was maintaining face); but after I insisted, he finally came around and he ordered the withdrawal. We set up a meeting with Clinton in July."

The US version of Kargil

The writer is a senior Washington-based Pakistani journalist President General Pervez Musharraf has reignited the explosive and controversial issue of Kargil by making direct and categorical...

www.thenews.com.pk

this should clear any doubt that indian army was effective..... as shown by it's poor performance in recent times, they were totally incompetent in driving out the superb North light Infantry...

General Zinni writing about Musharaf

"It was a great meeting, despite the chill cast by our sanctions. As I was leaving, we both agreed to stay in close touch (we exchanged our home telephone numbers). Our friendship would later prove to be enormously valuable to both our countries. "

And right there and then, in this very meeting, Mush knew he can topple the civilian elected Government and sell his countrymen for dollars. Failed soldier and a failed dictator. And now a failed politician. Hope he pays in this life and hereafter for his crimes against the thousands of Pakistanis he murdered and the tradition of land grabbing he instilled in the military.

 

[VkdIndian]

You still haven't countered my point of how op vijay was a failure.

I don’t need to.
You are no expert on the matter. Your creating an imaginative story and has no meaning and no one needs to answer to that.

I have quoted multiple sources/experts from within Pakistan as well as from outside who have clearly stated that Kargil was a military and diplomatic fiasco for Pakistan.
That is what matters and nothing else. You lost and lost big time as confirmed by your own.

While drumming up a theory you have not bothered to look at anyone of them. Very convenient.

So I say again. Your deduction has no meaning here.
If you have any credible military analyst to back your theory then it is fine.
Otherwise, you can keep asking meaningless questions which no one would bother to answer.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

The fact is Pakistan failed. You can't argue with this fact unless people insist in hurling their head in sand and flail with their legs by ignoring the facts. The Kargil operation failed because whatever it's objective was it did not fulfill.

Unless somebody can here tell us the objective and then state it was achieved. However what is crushingly obvious is Musharaf and Nawaz were happy to withdraw - indeed Musharaf appears to have been most flexible. Nawaz seems to have dragged his feet because he did not want to lose face in front of the public - then Musharaf also nodded to Nawaz to agree to a withdrawal and finally under more pressure from Zinni he agreed. This makes Musharaf look spineless and Nawaz more recalcitrant.

Then the two sides started to mobilize all their forces all along the line; and it was beginning to look like the opening moves of a larger war. It got alarming.

"I was therefore directed by the administration to head a presidential mission to Pakistan to convince Prime Minister Sharif and General Musharraf to withdraw their forces from Kargil. I met with the Pakistani leaders in Islamabad on June 24 and 25 and put forth a simple rationale for withdrawing: "If you don't pull back, you're going to bring war and nuclear annihilation down on your country. That's going to be very bad news for everybody."

"Nobody actually quarreled with this rationale. The problem for the Pakistani leadership was the apparent national loss of face. Backing down and pulling back to the Line of Control looked like political suicide. We needed to come up with a face-saving way out of this mess. What we were able to offer was a meeting with President Clinton, which would end the isolation that had long been the state of affairs between our two countries, but we would announce the meeting only after a withdrawal of forces. That got Musharraf's attention and he encouraged Prime Minister Sharif to hear me out.

"Sharif was reluctant to withdraw before the meeting with Clinton was announced (again, his problem was maintaining face); but after I insisted, he finally came around and he ordered the withdrawal. We set up a meeting with Clinton in July."

 

[VkdIndian]

The fact is Pakistan failed. You can't argue with this fact unless people insist in hurling their head in sand and flail with their legs by ignoring the facts. The Kargil operation failed because whatever it's objective was it did not fulfill.

@Huffal few sane voices do exist.
People who are ready to analyse a situation objectively.
Post facto Propaganda can’t win anyone a war.

 

[Tornado23]

@Huffal few sane voices do exist.
People who are ready to analyse a situation objectively.
Post facto Propaganda can’t win anyone a war.

Considering the fact how you still haven't refuted my points of op vijay being a failure and you constantly screeching about casualties goes to show how much you know about the subject.


Idgaf about causalties or refusal of dead and what not in this context

I care about the end result which is what I told you.

You haven't refuted me. You avoided each and every time.

Pakistan hold 4 peaks today and is still in kargil. How is it an Indian victory?

 

[Indus Pakistan]

People who are ready to analyse a situation objectively.

I want to make it clear here. The PA fought gallantly. Nobody can take that away from the men trapped on top of mountains, supplies cut off and facing Indian air, artillery and ground attacks in overwhelingly numbers. They fought like devils. We even on record that some men when out of ammunition began throwing stones down.

However from a military planning point of view we can sum it as follows "a demonstration of tactical genius but monumental strategic fiasco". Not my words but I if I remember correctly from The Times article from 1999 that I read when the fiasco was unfolding.

• 1 - "tactical genius" that units managed to secure Kargil heights without India finding out.
• 
  
• 2 - "strategic fiasco" what was the intended goal? Surely if throttling Indian supply line to Ladakh was the strategic objective then you would know that India would then react at any point or along entire Indo-Pak border. In other words if India had begin to be strangulated then she would attack in desperation along other points on the border with Lahore being most obvious - in other words reply of 1965.

And this is exactly what began to unfold. But as the whole situation began to escalate Musharaf and Nawaz began to wobble. Mushaaraf's testicles clearly had shrunk when Zinni told them what would happen if they did not withdraw.

Had he been true to himself, Mush would have said to ZInni "sorry but we have men paying with their lives and whatever will happen will happen but withdrawal is not a option. You can go tell your president "Pakistan Army will not, repeat NOT withdraw".

Then if he felt Nawaz was begining to wobble he could have sat with the PM and told hi "Pakistan Army will NOT withdraw and I have made it clear tp them".

"if you sir even think in the direction of withdrawing before you can even finish your Nihari I will have jawans of triple three brigade camping in PM House".

"do you understand"?