JF17 BLK4-----Major Upgrade & Replacement For F16's

[!eon]

Bro can u check kill switch myth with serving pilot, i don't believe it is true.

Try it yourself bro. Come to Germany, rent a car, uncheck the option to drive outside German borders(i.e. a lie), try to take the car outside Germany (don't worry you don't need visa for neighboring countries if you have German visa), car will be dead and also you have to pay heavy fine for lying.

 

[Zain Malik]

Guys I think PAC should redesign the airframe of JFT block IV and do some modifications to make it a twin engine aircraft...........And they have to do it soon as possible and as a result we don't have to go for a 4++ generation fighter like Sukhoi Su 35........Invest Money in JFT Project And InshAllah will get better Results.......!!!!!!

 

[Maarkhoor]

Try it yourself bro. Come to Germany, rent a car, uncheck the option to drive outside German borders(i.e. a lie), try to take the car outside Germany (don't worry you don't need visa for neighboring countries if you have German visa), car will be dead and also you have to pay heavy fine for lying.

Car on rent and buying a fighter jet two different things...

 

[!eon]

Car on rent and buying a fighter jet two different things...

Thus technology exists and no one can find a single line code in millions and millions of words.

Yes, I can remember there was once a thread about this some time in past on this forum.

 

[Maarkhoor]

Thus technology exists and no one can find a single line code in millions and millions of words.

Yes, I can remember there was once a thread about this some time in past on this forum.

It is a myth no nation in this world so fool to buy bugged defense equipment...We don't trust USA and US Govt is against our nuclear assets....We cant afford to have bugged jets guarding our reactors...it was a friend and foe system..myth started late in mid 90s when Turkish pilot trying to lock on Israeli F-16 during exercise but fails to do so some foolish jurno labelled it kill switch..later Turkey replaced it with home grown friend and foe system..

 

[TechMan]

Thus technology exists and no one can find a single line code in millions and millions of words.

Yes, I can remember there was once a thread about this some time in past on this forum.

I think I know what that code would be.

if(airForce == "Pakistan" && ApplySanctions())
{
killSwitch(DISABLE_ENGINES);
}

 

[AMMAR_YOUNAS]

Try it yourself bro. Come to Germany, rent a car, uncheck the option to drive outside German borders(i.e. a lie), try to take the car outside Germany (don't worry you don't need visa for neighboring countries if you have German visa), car will be dead and also you have to pay heavy fine for lying.

Bro regarding to kill switch installment and tracking device i completely agree with u. if i recall back it is already reveled in air crash investigation of turkey F16 when sealed component exposed tracking device. And that is way turkey is replacing F16 mission computer with indigenous made by ASELSAN and if F16 HUD is hacked it can also be override

I think I know what that code would be.

Bro it is not a myth anymore. Turkey is already replacing F16 mission computer with indigenous one

 

[Tank131]

The issue regarding kill switches is redundant and useless. The reality is that since at least 1998, the US has been able to hack into the aircraft using its tech (including Israeli F-16s and Heron UAVs) and US and UK spy agencies did exactly this to Israelis on many occasions per the Snowden leaks (just observing what the Israelis were doing. This means that it doesn't matter if the US has installed overt systems that function as a kill switch...if we want to disable your F-16, we can do it without the need to physically engage it. This means that even without a physical kill switch, we could electronically kill the system (a function kill switch).

Additionally, the US requires that PAF pilots need to pass through verification and be given the codes by US contractors/personnel in charge of overseeing the F-16 Block 52+ in PAF prior to any flight. Without this they will not be able to access the systems. This is not unusual as even during the 70s the US was overseeing the use of Iranian F-14s and disabled the phoenix missiles on these birds during the revolution. The F-16 is a vulnerable system if the US deems it wants to remove them from the PAF use. That being said it is not politically or economically a very smart move to do so unless they are used directly against us or our NATO allies. That means, that any action in self defense of Pakistan (even against India) likely will not prohibit their use. In times of conflict of the F-16 was not available to the PAF, it would immediately be known world over, and any high end US system would then never be purchased by any other nation in the world. We would be seen as entirely unreliable weapons dealers (bad for business). Also, there would have been no reason to sell AMRAAM with these birds if they couldnt be used against India (for example Egyptian and even Iraqi F-16s cannot use AMRAAM despite being C/Ds (Iraqi F-16s are block 52 as well)).

That all being said, @MastanKhan is 100% correct that PAF needs to (in future blocks) increase the size of the JF-17, in order to make it a true 4.5+ Gen fighter with staying power. An enlarged JF-17 with say AL-31/AL-41 engine and ~7500-8000kg payload and improved range would be the perfect PAF jet to replace the bulk of the F-16 fleet and provide solid strike capabilities ALONG SIDE FC-31 or another 5th Gen fighter. PAF will NOT be replacing F-16 1:1 with a 5th Gen fighter as it is too expensive and you would be looking at a 2045-2050 timeline for that goal to be complete given integration headaches. As such you need a solid 4.5+ Gen fighter capable of heavy strike (an enlarged JF-17 a la Super Hornet/Gripen NG/F-2) gives you that ability. PAF did not invest in this project to just get a 15year run with this fighter and the 4.5+ Gen will serve on (even in USAF) for decades to come as no airforce (even ours) is going to be completely 5th Gen for many many years. Su-35 is all well and good but there are no guarantees that this system will find its way to PAF. The Chinese Flankers will NOT be exported to Pakistan and the Typhoon is too expensive. Su-35 and JH-7B are the only current options for Heavy strike fighters. J-10 is redundant in PAF and the F-16 is sanction prone as Congressman Coker pointed out. Pursue russian flankers but be prepared to increase the size/physical capabilities of the Thunder.

 

[!eon]

It is a myth no nation in this world so fool to buy bugged defense equipment...We don't trust USA and US Govt is against our nuclear assets....We cant afford to have bugged jets guarding our reactors...it was a friend and foe system..myth started late in mid 90s when Turkish pilot trying to lock on Israeli F-16 during exercise but fails to do so some foolish jurno labelled it kill switch..later Turkey replaced it with home grown friend and foe system..

If you say it's a matter of trust then:
they were spying recently on Israeli jets, the only second country after UK having access to codes, why and why they can't do that and even more with Pakistani equipment ? Pakistan is no way like Israel to US and will not be.

After clearing my point I have no intention to convince you and I don't want to convert this thread to spying or kill switches discussion. Thanks.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

that there is no time for something new on the drawing board---otherwise this drama won't end---.

ASSLAM O ALEKUM

I know the fact that there is no time ........ In my opinion Thunder shall have some redesigns and brought up to standard .... same as you think But firstly I was also surprised .... there were many questions in mind . like is there enough time ... how we will do this ...... what else can we do ... Do we have enough $$$. were will the funds come to make a twin engine jet ...... But latter I got this clear. This jet is on the drawing board to counter Indian FGFA ..... This jet will have a wide body not as much as J-20 but you can say wide one and will have very low RCS and Pakistan will have shares in it so, our men will work there with them, This will help us acquire a new platform at much ease rather than directly buying a new platform ....... hope now you'll understand take care buddy

ALLAH HAFIZ

There were threads on PDF regarding a new aircraft which would be a Stealth JF-17, however these were removed because there was no credible source.

New design does not entirely mean that it would take 10 years to mature, it can be a upgrade to the existing design which might be developed on that with very limited time frame. If you consider the time taken on JF-17 was very less because it continued on the same principle of Super 7, where as the J-10 was made on the Lavi. This was the reason why PAF had to continue with the JF-17 and not go after the J-10. When J-10b was offered it still had some issues hence a upgrade was required which was to be named FC-20 the same was known by the name J-10c for PLAAF.

 

[somebozo]

No sanctions coming on Pakistan in near future..sanctions have proven useless..and will remain useless..

 

[graphican]

If Americans can kill Pakistani soldiers by attacking Pakistani posts at Afghan border, they on ethical graphs will be doing less of a crime by nullifying their provided hardware.

Today when Americans sold new F-16s to Pakistan, they never thought about Shakeel Afridi, but tomorrow when providing spare parts for the same aircraft, they might magically think about him again and refuse to help.

If your aggressive potentials are dependent on a friend, may be you can live with that - but if your ability to defend your home is dependent on somebody else, who also has a history of ditching you, you'd be betting on your survival for not having a backup plan.

 

[Manticore]

DMP, You are pointing to a modified j31 able to carry heavier load?

Mastaan sahib has chalked out some extended wing area [f16 xl/ f-2] and higher thrust needs. This means serious redesign and studies alongwith a far capable engine in the PW league.... an engine, which we dont have.
Now the question is if cost/time effective to build our own version of f16 aka j10? with a russian saturn engine?

If its time we need to save, j10 is the clear winner as the chinese have already operationalized the fighter. I dont think we can make the jf17 better than j10c in terms of range/payload at at any given research time period.

If we cant get a hold of a PW category western engine or even its russian saturn counterpart, then we are stuck with adding 2 of the low thrust russian rd engines on a single aircraft like the non canard mig29.
----- again a] if this rd twin engine proposed fighter is a stealth fighter,f31, it wont have high weapons load capacity again bringing us to square one for the need of a fighter bomber.
b] If this twin engine proposed fighter is a 4.5gen fighter,like eurofighter, it will have higher weapons but still it wont be a bomb truck like the su35 neither would it cover our stealth needs.


Basically what we need are 2 separate planrs. One 4.5 and the other 5th gen. The question is which one would be the high range bomb truck or if the steath bomber is the solution aka j20. Which one to buy right out of the shelf and which one to start a venture for.

Mastaan sahib is pointing at the range payload aspects where jft is deficient --- No matter how much members here say that jft and j10 are comparable/similar... it wont make them same


After brainstorming the options, the selection of j10/j20 combo by the chinese makes sense

 

[niaz]

As I understand it, FSX program started in 1987 when it was decided to replace F-1 with a new aircraft based on F-16A with 25% larger wing area. Maiden flight was in 1995 and it was not until 2000 that F-2 entered service. With all the money and engineering resources of Japan, it took 13 years.

F-2 uses the US F110-GE 129 engine with 75.62 KN dry thrust. Since normal loaded weight of F-2 is 33,000 lbs, even with after burner T/W ration is 0.89. Making F-2 under powered compared to most modern fighters where T/w ratio is close to 1.

Initial idea was to produce an aircraft cheaper than F-15, but the result was an aircraft which was as expensive ( $129-million in 2009 dollars) as F-15 but far less capable. Therefore numbers of planned units were reduced from nearly 140 to 94.Pakistan has neither the resources nor the time to take up such ambitious projects.


http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/lockheed-mitsubishis-f2-fighter-partnership-03188/

Japan - It's A Wonderful Rife: Mitsubishi F2 Fighter Jet


Larger airframe means increased weight requiring more powerful engine. Getting the more thrust from the same size engine is an extremely difficult problem to surmount because high temperatures and high pressure required inside the turbine raise reliability issues. It is precisely why there are only a handful of countries with the capability to produce trust worthy high performance aircraft engines. US & Russia being the leaders followed by UK, France & now China.

This is evident from the fact that JF-17 uses Russian RD-93 engine, Swedish Grippen uses licence produce GE-F404 produced by Volvo; HAL Tejas is also powered by GE-F404. Even the Korean T5- Golden Eagle is powered by Ge- F404. Chinese WS-9 engine was licensed version of Rolls Royce RB.168. WS 10 Engines are indigenous but untried. Understand that even one of the J-20 prototypes is being tested with the Russian AL-31.

Therefore even after going thru the effort of redesigning the Thunder airframe with larger wing area, power plant will remain a big problem. We have seen that happening with HAL Tejas!

Finally, how can we forget that JF-17 was not developed by Pakistan alone but with huge input from China? Pakistan on its own has neither the resources nor the technical know-how to start such program on her own; would China agree to jointly develop a larger & heavier JF-17 when she is already heavily involved in J-20 & J-31 programs?

I have every respect for honourable Mastan Khan and this post is not meant for ‘pooh poohing’ the idea. I am however a trained engineer and look at all things with a practical point of view.

In addition to onerous program cost and time lag, no suitable power plant may be available / accessible to Pakistan and without the guarantee that the new aircraft will be better than off the shelf options such as buying additional F-16’s or J-20 etc.; in my opinion this idea is not “Practicable”.

 

[Maarkhoor]

As per Chinese expert J10 and JF-17's performance and cost is quite comparable that is why JF-17 not inducted by China...they don't need two similar platforms in the air force for the same role and same case with Pakistan after experience the performance PAF concluded that two Jets quite comparable in terms of performance so PAF also scrap the plan to purchase 36 J-10 jets from China.