MastanKhan
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JF17 BLK4-----Major Upgrade & Replacement For F16's
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TaimiKhan
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I think we should keep the things to Blk-3. After that thought should be given to FC-31 kind of platform with either double engine option or a single engine more powerful option. In 5-10 years time frame hopefully chinese engine tech would have improved much more and they would be producing reliable engines.
Instead of wasting resources, time & money on Blk 4, start thinking about a new platform like FC-31s.
Instead of wasting resources, time & money on Blk 4, start thinking about a new platform like FC-31s.
MastanKhan
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Hi,
Pappy----that was not a catastrophic incidence---what is one pilot or two pilots dead---big deal---.
The issue is of a catastrophic event---this was all a drama---it was just a minor issue---.
Why would you show your hand in a minor issue---then you would lose control when there is a major issue---because by then you may have rectified the problem.
You might end up throwing all the electronics out and putting your own in---or end up buying a new system.
That incidence was a military incidence---. the U S military was very capable of handling any issue of missile launch etc etc.
Maarkhoor
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I remember in one interview former Air Chief talking to media said we will conclude full production of JF-17 with 3rd block.
MastanKhan
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Hi,
It is good to see that you are still kicking around---. The FC31 would be a 10-15 years induction deal---and the stealth is nothing without a heavy against a well armed enemy---.
MastanKhan
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Hi,
Don't worry about my rank---what I am saying is---that there is no time for something new on the drawing board---otherwise this drama won't end---.
Hi,
That focus is needed now---not after blk 3---
Zarvan
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I agree with that and I think something is going on behind the scenes I am talking about third 4.5th generation platform
TaimiKhan
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Thank you sir ji, well that is why i suggested FC-31 because we have hardly started with Blk-II, then older ones may need upgrading to Blk-II and once Blk-II i is near completion then we may see some good activity on Blk-IIIs, plus meantime if we get export orders, PAC guys will be more busy with all this and I see atleast 8-10 years for all this to complete fully. So meantime we go with F-16s + JF-17s and star getting FC-31 kind of platforms once they become available and our enemy will definitely go for such option in 10 years time period or may hurry if in case the Chinese make operational the J-20 platform which by the way seems is about to happen with initial inductions which are going through testing stage.
hunter_hunted
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I hardly doubt PAF will be able to play its role when it is more interested in selling an jet fighter instead of doing what it was supposed to do. And i dont believe in this WE DONT HAVE FUNDS CRAP
Windjammer
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Uncle Ji, it's nature's evolution that a baby learns to crawl before taking steps to walk and then ends up running around the house and goes on winning Marathons.
After successfully inducting the Block-1 and moving onto Block-2, the work on next version is well into progress.
After implementation and induction of B-3 , I'm sure they will look into whether there's room for further progress in the same airframe or it's time to move on to a new concept. It's also worth remembering that time to time, certain statements are issued for a particular audience and reason. I'm sure after the odd order for 8 Block-52s, you didn't expect another 10 following so soon on the heels.
And those E-mails to the PAF do get delivered however don't expect a prompt reply. !!
After successfully inducting the Block-1 and moving onto Block-2, the work on next version is well into progress.
After implementation and induction of B-3 , I'm sure they will look into whether there's room for further progress in the same airframe or it's time to move on to a new concept. It's also worth remembering that time to time, certain statements are issued for a particular audience and reason. I'm sure after the odd order for 8 Block-52s, you didn't expect another 10 following so soon on the heels.
And those E-mails to the PAF do get delivered however don't expect a prompt reply. !!
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Few things that I want to share here as what I felt and observe in above said condition/times or developments as per my low knowledge so the pardon is requested in advance if illogical
a. I wish that PAF could have everything possibly available for not just the safeguard of Pakistan but our Pilots as well that those are precious lives. Putting all efforts into JFT will indeed benefit us in long run and would also help us to be out of dependent upon others mud and will boost the skills and self reliance. It is very possible that JFT could have different blocks as per tech available time to time like the journey of F-16s till today by different blocks. We are already looking for major changes in Block-III like AESA, IRST etc. While looking at such goals, JFT block III almost caters and indulges itself into something that we may call as 4++ generation fighter. Now things become as our requirement with respect to long range heavy strike force. As many senior members have discussed it to almost death as per available sources and information that in current scenario, PAF would go for around 110 F-16s, more JFT up-to block III as well as further production of JFT in numbers due to the up-coming retirement of aging fleet. It is also pertinent to mention that sometimes, where the 2 can do a single job that could be done by one advance bird than those 2. While looking at the aging fleet, those birds weren’t meant to face the adversaries of current times indeed but a bird like JFT growing in these times can compete with almost any threat being young and still having room to upgrade though depends upon available and installed tech so the numbers wouldn’t be an issue like 1:1 basis but with the help of advance tech, a less number would be good enough to do the needful. So the filling numbers as discussed above could be minimized in demand due to better tech than retiring fleet.
b. Now while considering the requirements of 4.5++ generation fighter for PAF, it has been discussed on this forum as well that while having the 110 or + F-16s along with a good number of JFT Block-III and Block-II, the almost area would have been covered but there will be a hole of 4.5++ multi-role fighter to fill. It has been also witnessed that any European program (EFT possibly) in this regard is not feasible due to our current treasury picture but to the some extent we have also discussed that can be possible while looking at the geopolitical change in ME. I wouldn’t go further on this possibility of ME countries funding us for 4.5++ as it is not our pocket so couldn’t rely at all. So, the choice remains as more possibly to go for Chinese. Looking at the inventory, J-11, J-16s or in other words Chinese flankers series with long legs (means twin engines only) is not for export due to Russian concerns and we are left with only choice of FC-31 and Russian SU-35 in this regard. While looking at SU-35, the same could not be acquired as discussed due to budget, so also no TOT, support which is evident in case of India so far and first timers with Russian ACs that may waste precious time and money as well and also the predecessors are being flown by our neighbor that forces us for more acquisitions. The possible solution in case of no more blocks after JFT-III, would be or can be the FC-31. Though the FC-31 needs to be having more powerful engines while enhancing the range that the bird will truly serve the purpose like low observable along with having a long range and heavy strike, multi-role capabilities. It has been also discussed by the some seniors that PAF is already interested in FC-31 and so also participating in this program to produce as per requirement and long lasting while filling the gaps of 4.5++ and stealth as well.
c. While looking at the formula of acquiring the J-10 and turning it into something like JFT Block-IV with more advance techs and options like buddy refueling, advance PODS, more gadgets and ability to carry more weight and ammunition alongwith advance sensors and self defence suits etc, looking at the current financial structure, such acquisition is not feasible or seems like will cause delays due to the funds and required inventory as well. However, it could be possible while the economy rises and GDP shows a good growth possibly around 2020. Such equation could serve the best purpose and could be a best punch like F-16s, JFT-Block-II, III and IV alongwith FC-31 but looks like rich kids showcase as per current structure.
d. Building of an air craft like as Mastan Sir quoted, is indeed the need and must of times so also no country survive long or do not grow while dependent upon others but self reliance is must. Production of such air craft seems possible where the nation and government is not dependent upon foreign aid and loans that ultimately causes the influence. The democratic leadership of Pakistan is very influenced with US & West so far have been depending upon aid as well which may not let us to stand alone or take such big decisions without any hassle. The situation that currently we are facing is like striving to grow our economy and create an atmosphere to flow the money by every business in Pakistan while having peace and prosperity but as we look at pedigree of leadership, such decision makers are out of sight or one cannot yet imagine or think about that times where we can independently make decisions. Such step towards self reliance will ultimately alarm the international influential parties and will play every card to stop. Such parties wouldn’t threaten or will come with any harassment but these so called leaders will serve the purpose well that funds and budgets are always related to the allocation by political government and they will affect the same as have been doing in past till today. So to make it true and possible, first of all, a major change in Islamabad palaces is must and PAF cannot adopt the way like our neighbor’s air force does by making cries and hues for requirements which will be used ultimately for demonize the Military by our enemies most and few so called friends as well that are willing to have a chance like this.
e. So looking at the possibilities looks like we will be having 110 F-16s, JFT Block-III alongwith working on FC-31 platform and as soon as the economy inclines and grow drastically, will ultimately open the doors towards what is suggested as bring in a new platform. It is more about available possible funds and smart moves and would be feasible once the economy grows though the possibility is there about more blocks after the JFT-III.
f. The story of kill switches and such things has been popping up time to time and indeed surprises me that even knowing about the same being in those high offices, why the one patriot would attempt such suicide to bring down the nation at any time. PAF alone isn’t operating F-16s in the world and there are several nations and the process and growth of JFT etc shows that we are already moving with steady pace towards self reliance and not dependent on one. As I have heard and viewed here as well that the mission keys or encrypted permission are required for operating of F-16s after a specific time/period expiry. Hacking into Israeli drone seems possible and nothing is impossible in this world especially in case of man made things but so far the hacking of F-16 display looks like recording storage was hacked and such video was fetched rather than online/live hacking into F-16s HMD. Even if the same was hacked in flight, I am hopeful that would have helped open many eyes including ours as well and indeed the same would have been discussed as well along with possibility of kill switch etc. Hopefully things will be turned into better but PAF cannot do alone all at once so also the major change is required from political end so will result the more assured safeguard by our militaries and they will be answerable as well more about funds and utilization. Accountability is only possible where the one is loyal and not corrupted so previously, if PAF rankers have done something like this, the political elite kings were also involved here so it is highly needed that we should put our efforts and play our part despite cursing the force alone is not feasible nor justice. Nobody is friend without benefits indeed whether it is about US or West etc and hopefully we have learnt a lot.
a. I wish that PAF could have everything possibly available for not just the safeguard of Pakistan but our Pilots as well that those are precious lives. Putting all efforts into JFT will indeed benefit us in long run and would also help us to be out of dependent upon others mud and will boost the skills and self reliance. It is very possible that JFT could have different blocks as per tech available time to time like the journey of F-16s till today by different blocks. We are already looking for major changes in Block-III like AESA, IRST etc. While looking at such goals, JFT block III almost caters and indulges itself into something that we may call as 4++ generation fighter. Now things become as our requirement with respect to long range heavy strike force. As many senior members have discussed it to almost death as per available sources and information that in current scenario, PAF would go for around 110 F-16s, more JFT up-to block III as well as further production of JFT in numbers due to the up-coming retirement of aging fleet. It is also pertinent to mention that sometimes, where the 2 can do a single job that could be done by one advance bird than those 2. While looking at the aging fleet, those birds weren’t meant to face the adversaries of current times indeed but a bird like JFT growing in these times can compete with almost any threat being young and still having room to upgrade though depends upon available and installed tech so the numbers wouldn’t be an issue like 1:1 basis but with the help of advance tech, a less number would be good enough to do the needful. So the filling numbers as discussed above could be minimized in demand due to better tech than retiring fleet.
b. Now while considering the requirements of 4.5++ generation fighter for PAF, it has been discussed on this forum as well that while having the 110 or + F-16s along with a good number of JFT Block-III and Block-II, the almost area would have been covered but there will be a hole of 4.5++ multi-role fighter to fill. It has been also witnessed that any European program (EFT possibly) in this regard is not feasible due to our current treasury picture but to the some extent we have also discussed that can be possible while looking at the geopolitical change in ME. I wouldn’t go further on this possibility of ME countries funding us for 4.5++ as it is not our pocket so couldn’t rely at all. So, the choice remains as more possibly to go for Chinese. Looking at the inventory, J-11, J-16s or in other words Chinese flankers series with long legs (means twin engines only) is not for export due to Russian concerns and we are left with only choice of FC-31 and Russian SU-35 in this regard. While looking at SU-35, the same could not be acquired as discussed due to budget, so also no TOT, support which is evident in case of India so far and first timers with Russian ACs that may waste precious time and money as well and also the predecessors are being flown by our neighbor that forces us for more acquisitions. The possible solution in case of no more blocks after JFT-III, would be or can be the FC-31. Though the FC-31 needs to be having more powerful engines while enhancing the range that the bird will truly serve the purpose like low observable along with having a long range and heavy strike, multi-role capabilities. It has been also discussed by the some seniors that PAF is already interested in FC-31 and so also participating in this program to produce as per requirement and long lasting while filling the gaps of 4.5++ and stealth as well.
c. While looking at the formula of acquiring the J-10 and turning it into something like JFT Block-IV with more advance techs and options like buddy refueling, advance PODS, more gadgets and ability to carry more weight and ammunition alongwith advance sensors and self defence suits etc, looking at the current financial structure, such acquisition is not feasible or seems like will cause delays due to the funds and required inventory as well. However, it could be possible while the economy rises and GDP shows a good growth possibly around 2020. Such equation could serve the best purpose and could be a best punch like F-16s, JFT-Block-II, III and IV alongwith FC-31 but looks like rich kids showcase as per current structure.
d. Building of an air craft like as Mastan Sir quoted, is indeed the need and must of times so also no country survive long or do not grow while dependent upon others but self reliance is must. Production of such air craft seems possible where the nation and government is not dependent upon foreign aid and loans that ultimately causes the influence. The democratic leadership of Pakistan is very influenced with US & West so far have been depending upon aid as well which may not let us to stand alone or take such big decisions without any hassle. The situation that currently we are facing is like striving to grow our economy and create an atmosphere to flow the money by every business in Pakistan while having peace and prosperity but as we look at pedigree of leadership, such decision makers are out of sight or one cannot yet imagine or think about that times where we can independently make decisions. Such step towards self reliance will ultimately alarm the international influential parties and will play every card to stop. Such parties wouldn’t threaten or will come with any harassment but these so called leaders will serve the purpose well that funds and budgets are always related to the allocation by political government and they will affect the same as have been doing in past till today. So to make it true and possible, first of all, a major change in Islamabad palaces is must and PAF cannot adopt the way like our neighbor’s air force does by making cries and hues for requirements which will be used ultimately for demonize the Military by our enemies most and few so called friends as well that are willing to have a chance like this.
e. So looking at the possibilities looks like we will be having 110 F-16s, JFT Block-III alongwith working on FC-31 platform and as soon as the economy inclines and grow drastically, will ultimately open the doors towards what is suggested as bring in a new platform. It is more about available possible funds and smart moves and would be feasible once the economy grows though the possibility is there about more blocks after the JFT-III.
f. The story of kill switches and such things has been popping up time to time and indeed surprises me that even knowing about the same being in those high offices, why the one patriot would attempt such suicide to bring down the nation at any time. PAF alone isn’t operating F-16s in the world and there are several nations and the process and growth of JFT etc shows that we are already moving with steady pace towards self reliance and not dependent on one. As I have heard and viewed here as well that the mission keys or encrypted permission are required for operating of F-16s after a specific time/period expiry. Hacking into Israeli drone seems possible and nothing is impossible in this world especially in case of man made things but so far the hacking of F-16 display looks like recording storage was hacked and such video was fetched rather than online/live hacking into F-16s HMD. Even if the same was hacked in flight, I am hopeful that would have helped open many eyes including ours as well and indeed the same would have been discussed as well along with possibility of kill switch etc. Hopefully things will be turned into better but PAF cannot do alone all at once so also the major change is required from political end so will result the more assured safeguard by our militaries and they will be answerable as well more about funds and utilization. Accountability is only possible where the one is loyal and not corrupted so previously, if PAF rankers have done something like this, the political elite kings were also involved here so it is highly needed that we should put our efforts and play our part despite cursing the force alone is not feasible nor justice. Nobody is friend without benefits indeed whether it is about US or West etc and hopefully we have learnt a lot.
Windjammer
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Maarkhoor
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Bro can u check kill switch myth with serving pilot, i don't believe it is true.
AMMAR_YOUNAS
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The relations with india is worsening. In 2014 and 2015 there were a lot of news aggencies alarming about possiblity of pak india conflict. I think with increasing india defense procurement it is a wise decision to reduce a number gap as fast as with a potent aircraft like F16 capable of deep striking.
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