JF-17's various initial design phases & design resemblances
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Sherlock Holmes
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Northrop F-20 Tigershark
Super 7
JF-17 Thunder
F-7P Sabre II "Super 7" (Chao Qi)
F-7P Sabre II "Super 7" (Chao Qi)
The Super-7 is a development of the F-7, Chengdu's version of the Mikoyan MiG-21 Fishbed. The upgraded F-7M was to be offered for export by China as a lowcost, new-build replacement for the US-built Northrop F-5, the Soviet MiG-21, and the Chinese F-6 and F-7.
By the early 1980s the PAF was looking for a new fighter to replace the F-6 [Chinese J-6]. Pakistan initiated the Sabre II project which would upgrade the Chengdu F-7M Skybolt with a Western engine and avionics. The early 1980s was characterized by a pronounced improvement in US-Chinese relations. It was therefore only natural that China became a major market for Western military hardware, in contrast to the years following China's 1949 Communist revolution, when an economic embargo imposed by the West forced China to seek assistance from the Soviet Union.
Grumman and China studied the feasibility of producing substantially improved F-7s using US engines and avionics. The extensively modified version of China's F-7 (MiG-21) fighter, called the Sabre II, would be re-engined and given a new forward fuselage with "solid" nose and side intakes. The new plane was deep modernization of J-7 fighter. The Sabre II was an F-7 with a General Electric F404 or Pratt & Whitney PW1216 or PW1120 engine producing between 16,0001b and 20,0001b thrust. The aircraft was equipped with the Westinghouse AN/APG-66 radar (the same as on the F-16 fighter. According to Chinese experts, the combat capabilities of the aircraft "Super 7" must have been closer to the American F-16 fighter.
The "SUPER-7" was the first fighter jet completely designed and manufactured by China. Super-7 (Chao Qi) fighter was a new generation fighter and the first of its kind of China's own intellectual property rights. The third-generation fighter plane, which can carry 3.8 tons of missiles, also has improved systems for attacking ground targets. Its advanced radar positioning and operating systems give the plane greater flexibility and better close-range manoeuvrability.
The wing area would be enlarged by increasing span (from 23.5ft to 26ft) and chord. Leading-edge slats and combat flaps would be fitted. Two additional hardpoints would be incorporated for Sidewinder-class air-to-air missiles. The higher thrust and lower wing loading would increase manuverability, while the longer fuselage (stretched from 45.8ft to 49.3ft) would give an 1,1001b increase in fuel capacity and single-point refuelling. The extra fuel and more-efficient turbofan would enhance range and endurance. The main landing gear would be beefed up, and larger wheels fitted. The nose gear would also be redesigned, and would incorporate nosewheel steering. An arrester hook would be fitted, and the ventral strake would be reshaped. The cockpit would be changed completely, with a Northrop F-20 Tigershark windscreen and canopy, F-16-type displays and instrumentation, and a new ejection seat. The gaseous oxygen system would be replaced by a higher-capacity liquid oxygen system.
The program was partially funded by Pakistan, which was considered as the main potential customer. The fighter was offered as a low-cost alternative to the F-16 to meet Pakistan's 150-aircraft requirement to replace Chinese-supplied F-6s (MiG-19s). The flyaway cost will be $8-9 million.
Grumman completed a five-month feasibility study in 1987. The American firm had performed preliminary studies and wind tunnel aircraft models. Grumman, China's Chengdu aircraft factory, China Aero Technology Import-Export Company, the Pakistan Air Force and the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) promoted the F-7 modification. Chengdu would build the revised rear fuselage to a Grumman design, while the US company would build the new forward fuselage. PAC would assemble the aircraft. Several other Western companies were in competition to supply the engine and avionics.
In November 1988 Grumman and the China National Aero Technology Import-Export Corporation (Catic) started a nine month preliminary design study to upgrade Chinese-built Xian F-7M Airguard (MiG-21) fighter/ ground-attack aircraft. But by 1988 Grumman doubted that its proposal will be accepted, but believed that China could become interested in the modified F-7 for its own use.
The joint program to produce the Super 7 fighter was delayed in part because of resource constraints which prevented Beijing from meeting the project's initial R&D costs. Within a few years, project costs had escalated, and by 1989 the program was regarded as posing high financial risk by the PAF, given the 40% increase in the cost of the project. Chinese relations with the West broke down following the suppression of the Tiananmen Square protests in June 1989. Consequently, the "Sabre II" project was cancelled.
In the meantime the US lost interest in Pakistan following the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan. The US suddenly focused on Pakistan's nuclear weapons development program, and in 1990 the US imposed military and economic sanctions in the Pressler amendments. Development of the "Super 7" upgrade was slowed with the end of American technical assistance following the Tienanmen repression of 1989. The PAF opted for a less ambitious option of acquiring the F-7P Skybolt, an upgraded version of the F-7M, to support the fleet of F-7P Skybolts with over a 100 F-16 Fighting Falcons.
By 1993 Saturn's AL-31F, which powers the Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker, had been selected to power the Chinese Chengdu Super-7, which was due to be flown in 1994. The Super-7 was to have been powered by the General Electric F404, but use of the engine was blocked by a US trade embargo. The Russian powerplant was selected over the Turbo-Union marketed by Rolls-Royce. By 1995 Moscow was willing to assist with a number of Chinese programs, including the Super-7 fighter plane. But even with Russia's help, this aircraft ws not scheduled for delivery until the latter part of the 1990s. Pakistan and China later foreclosed the option of producing F-Super 7 aircraft due to non-availability of engines. However, Chengdu continued it efforts to improve the F-7M airframe by re-designing air intakes on the sides of the fuselage, hence the name Super-7.
Both the "F-7P" and "Super 7" nomenclature are extremely ambiguous, and seem to refer as much to requirments as to actual specific pieces of hardware. The "F-7P" nomenclature seems to reference the full range of F-7 configurations for Pakistan, and antedates the development of the side inlet design. Similarly, the "Super 7" nomenclature survived this F-7 derivative configuration, and for a while decended on the essentially unrelated FC-1 "Chao Qi" / JF-17 Thunder program, which Pakistan and China embarked on in the late 1990s.
Super 7
JF-17 Thunder
F-7P Sabre II "Super 7" (Chao Qi)
F-7P Sabre II "Super 7" (Chao Qi)
The Super-7 is a development of the F-7, Chengdu's version of the Mikoyan MiG-21 Fishbed. The upgraded F-7M was to be offered for export by China as a lowcost, new-build replacement for the US-built Northrop F-5, the Soviet MiG-21, and the Chinese F-6 and F-7.
By the early 1980s the PAF was looking for a new fighter to replace the F-6 [Chinese J-6]. Pakistan initiated the Sabre II project which would upgrade the Chengdu F-7M Skybolt with a Western engine and avionics. The early 1980s was characterized by a pronounced improvement in US-Chinese relations. It was therefore only natural that China became a major market for Western military hardware, in contrast to the years following China's 1949 Communist revolution, when an economic embargo imposed by the West forced China to seek assistance from the Soviet Union.
Grumman and China studied the feasibility of producing substantially improved F-7s using US engines and avionics. The extensively modified version of China's F-7 (MiG-21) fighter, called the Sabre II, would be re-engined and given a new forward fuselage with "solid" nose and side intakes. The new plane was deep modernization of J-7 fighter. The Sabre II was an F-7 with a General Electric F404 or Pratt & Whitney PW1216 or PW1120 engine producing between 16,0001b and 20,0001b thrust. The aircraft was equipped with the Westinghouse AN/APG-66 radar (the same as on the F-16 fighter. According to Chinese experts, the combat capabilities of the aircraft "Super 7" must have been closer to the American F-16 fighter.
The "SUPER-7" was the first fighter jet completely designed and manufactured by China. Super-7 (Chao Qi) fighter was a new generation fighter and the first of its kind of China's own intellectual property rights. The third-generation fighter plane, which can carry 3.8 tons of missiles, also has improved systems for attacking ground targets. Its advanced radar positioning and operating systems give the plane greater flexibility and better close-range manoeuvrability.
The wing area would be enlarged by increasing span (from 23.5ft to 26ft) and chord. Leading-edge slats and combat flaps would be fitted. Two additional hardpoints would be incorporated for Sidewinder-class air-to-air missiles. The higher thrust and lower wing loading would increase manuverability, while the longer fuselage (stretched from 45.8ft to 49.3ft) would give an 1,1001b increase in fuel capacity and single-point refuelling. The extra fuel and more-efficient turbofan would enhance range and endurance. The main landing gear would be beefed up, and larger wheels fitted. The nose gear would also be redesigned, and would incorporate nosewheel steering. An arrester hook would be fitted, and the ventral strake would be reshaped. The cockpit would be changed completely, with a Northrop F-20 Tigershark windscreen and canopy, F-16-type displays and instrumentation, and a new ejection seat. The gaseous oxygen system would be replaced by a higher-capacity liquid oxygen system.
The program was partially funded by Pakistan, which was considered as the main potential customer. The fighter was offered as a low-cost alternative to the F-16 to meet Pakistan's 150-aircraft requirement to replace Chinese-supplied F-6s (MiG-19s). The flyaway cost will be $8-9 million.
Grumman completed a five-month feasibility study in 1987. The American firm had performed preliminary studies and wind tunnel aircraft models. Grumman, China's Chengdu aircraft factory, China Aero Technology Import-Export Company, the Pakistan Air Force and the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) promoted the F-7 modification. Chengdu would build the revised rear fuselage to a Grumman design, while the US company would build the new forward fuselage. PAC would assemble the aircraft. Several other Western companies were in competition to supply the engine and avionics.
In November 1988 Grumman and the China National Aero Technology Import-Export Corporation (Catic) started a nine month preliminary design study to upgrade Chinese-built Xian F-7M Airguard (MiG-21) fighter/ ground-attack aircraft. But by 1988 Grumman doubted that its proposal will be accepted, but believed that China could become interested in the modified F-7 for its own use.
The joint program to produce the Super 7 fighter was delayed in part because of resource constraints which prevented Beijing from meeting the project's initial R&D costs. Within a few years, project costs had escalated, and by 1989 the program was regarded as posing high financial risk by the PAF, given the 40% increase in the cost of the project. Chinese relations with the West broke down following the suppression of the Tiananmen Square protests in June 1989. Consequently, the "Sabre II" project was cancelled.
In the meantime the US lost interest in Pakistan following the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan. The US suddenly focused on Pakistan's nuclear weapons development program, and in 1990 the US imposed military and economic sanctions in the Pressler amendments. Development of the "Super 7" upgrade was slowed with the end of American technical assistance following the Tienanmen repression of 1989. The PAF opted for a less ambitious option of acquiring the F-7P Skybolt, an upgraded version of the F-7M, to support the fleet of F-7P Skybolts with over a 100 F-16 Fighting Falcons.
By 1993 Saturn's AL-31F, which powers the Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker, had been selected to power the Chinese Chengdu Super-7, which was due to be flown in 1994. The Super-7 was to have been powered by the General Electric F404, but use of the engine was blocked by a US trade embargo. The Russian powerplant was selected over the Turbo-Union marketed by Rolls-Royce. By 1995 Moscow was willing to assist with a number of Chinese programs, including the Super-7 fighter plane. But even with Russia's help, this aircraft ws not scheduled for delivery until the latter part of the 1990s. Pakistan and China later foreclosed the option of producing F-Super 7 aircraft due to non-availability of engines. However, Chengdu continued it efforts to improve the F-7M airframe by re-designing air intakes on the sides of the fuselage, hence the name Super-7.
Both the "F-7P" and "Super 7" nomenclature are extremely ambiguous, and seem to refer as much to requirments as to actual specific pieces of hardware. The "F-7P" nomenclature seems to reference the full range of F-7 configurations for Pakistan, and antedates the development of the side inlet design. Similarly, the "Super 7" nomenclature survived this F-7 derivative configuration, and for a while decended on the essentially unrelated FC-1 "Chao Qi" / JF-17 Thunder program, which Pakistan and China embarked on in the late 1990s.
Sherlock Holmes
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FC-1 ( Fighter China 1 )
PAF Project Super Seven, Formally FC-1
Over View:
Project Super Seven, which is formally known as FC-1 is designed to further meet Pakistan Air Forces tactical and strategic needs with the least reliance on imports from other countries. In addition to that to design a plane that meets its on requirements with lots of room for upgrades and with export options. Super Seven is considered to be Medium-tech or possibly low-high-tech class.
History:
The project was initiated in February 1992, by China Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation (CATIC) who officially invited the PAF to invest in the Super-7 program. In return for full participation in design and development phase, with exclusive co-production rights. After careful consideration Pakistan Air Force (PAF) decided to go ahead with is project and got the Government approval in October 1994.
Joint Venture:
This project is a joint venture between Pakistan Air Force and China Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation. This multi-million dollar project is financed up to 50%-59% by government of Pakistan. Its estimated cost will be around 20 million US dollars which makes it excellent option for export market.
Technical Details:
Super Seven is a light weight, multi-role day-night, all weather fighter with max TO weight 12,700kg, max speed 1.7M, ceiling 16,500m, max weapon load 3,900kg, range 3,000km. It uses Russian RD-93 turbofan, which is an upgrade of RD-33, this RD-93 turbofan is also used in Russian MiG-29 it is claimed to 70-80% as capable as American F-16.
The aircraft will also be fitted with an in-flight refueling probe and a deck arrester hook. This increase its sticking range far beyond 3,000km. According to some credible Chinese sources it might be fitted with fire control radar, for the export version include state of the art GEC-Marconi Blue Hawk, Thomson-CSF RDY, Phanzotron Kapyo and Fiar Grifo S7. In addition to that it will include a 25° field of view HUD, two multi-functional displays and INS/GPS ( Global Positioning System).
Weapon Systems:
Super Seven is designed to be fitted with vast array of weaponry. Weapon load includes short and medium range AAMs (Anti-Air Missiles) like AIM-9P/PL-9/Magic 2 and PL-11/Aspide/AIM-7E etc. In addition to that it includes new FBW system and a true BVR attack capability, which will allow Pakistan Air Force to have a major strategic upper hand over Indian Air Force.
Additional Information:
Work on Super Seven is underway and it is all set to fly by June 2003.Full scale mockups were also constructed earlier in 2001. Pakistan Air Force has already shown its interest in its initial first order of 150 planes. Its looking to full-fill its 60-70% needs in future with this plane. At the same time Chinese Air Force is initially interested in ordering up to 200 of these planes.
Once the work is completed on this deadly plane, it will create a new dimension in air combat standards. It would allow Pakistan to not only build this plane with its own recourses within the country but opens a huge export market. In addition to this further changing the balance of Air Power in Pakistan favor.
PAF Project Super Seven, Formally FC-1
Over View:
Project Super Seven, which is formally known as FC-1 is designed to further meet Pakistan Air Forces tactical and strategic needs with the least reliance on imports from other countries. In addition to that to design a plane that meets its on requirements with lots of room for upgrades and with export options. Super Seven is considered to be Medium-tech or possibly low-high-tech class.
History:
The project was initiated in February 1992, by China Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation (CATIC) who officially invited the PAF to invest in the Super-7 program. In return for full participation in design and development phase, with exclusive co-production rights. After careful consideration Pakistan Air Force (PAF) decided to go ahead with is project and got the Government approval in October 1994.
Joint Venture:
This project is a joint venture between Pakistan Air Force and China Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation. This multi-million dollar project is financed up to 50%-59% by government of Pakistan. Its estimated cost will be around 20 million US dollars which makes it excellent option for export market.
Technical Details:
Super Seven is a light weight, multi-role day-night, all weather fighter with max TO weight 12,700kg, max speed 1.7M, ceiling 16,500m, max weapon load 3,900kg, range 3,000km. It uses Russian RD-93 turbofan, which is an upgrade of RD-33, this RD-93 turbofan is also used in Russian MiG-29 it is claimed to 70-80% as capable as American F-16.
The aircraft will also be fitted with an in-flight refueling probe and a deck arrester hook. This increase its sticking range far beyond 3,000km. According to some credible Chinese sources it might be fitted with fire control radar, for the export version include state of the art GEC-Marconi Blue Hawk, Thomson-CSF RDY, Phanzotron Kapyo and Fiar Grifo S7. In addition to that it will include a 25° field of view HUD, two multi-functional displays and INS/GPS ( Global Positioning System).
Weapon Systems:
Super Seven is designed to be fitted with vast array of weaponry. Weapon load includes short and medium range AAMs (Anti-Air Missiles) like AIM-9P/PL-9/Magic 2 and PL-11/Aspide/AIM-7E etc. In addition to that it includes new FBW system and a true BVR attack capability, which will allow Pakistan Air Force to have a major strategic upper hand over Indian Air Force.
Additional Information:
Work on Super Seven is underway and it is all set to fly by June 2003.Full scale mockups were also constructed earlier in 2001. Pakistan Air Force has already shown its interest in its initial first order of 150 planes. Its looking to full-fill its 60-70% needs in future with this plane. At the same time Chinese Air Force is initially interested in ordering up to 200 of these planes.
Once the work is completed on this deadly plane, it will create a new dimension in air combat standards. It would allow Pakistan to not only build this plane with its own recourses within the country but opens a huge export market. In addition to this further changing the balance of Air Power in Pakistan favor.
Manticore
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please go through this thread before repostingFC-1 ( Fighter China 1 )
PAF Project Super Seven, Formally FC-1
Over View:
Project Super Seven, which is formally known as FC-1 is designed to further meet Pakistan Air Forces tactical and strategic needs with the least reliance on imports from other countries. In addition to that to design a plane that meets its on requirements with lots of room for upgrades and with export options. Super Seven is considered to be Medium-tech or possibly low-high-tech class.
History:
The project was initiated in February 1992, by China Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation (CATIC) who officially invited the PAF to invest in the Super-7 program. In return for full participation in design and development phase, with exclusive co-production rights. After careful consideration Pakistan Air Force (PAF) decided to go ahead with is project and got the Government approval in October 1994.
Joint Venture:
This project is a joint venture between Pakistan Air Force and China Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation. This multi-million dollar project is financed up to 50%-59% by government of Pakistan. Its estimated cost will be around 20 million US dollars which makes it excellent option for export market.
Technical Details:
Super Seven is a light weight, multi-role day-night, all weather fighter with max TO weight 12,700kg, max speed 1.7M, ceiling 16,500m, max weapon load 3,900kg, range 3,000km. It uses Russian RD-93 turbofan, which is an upgrade of RD-33, this RD-93 turbofan is also used in Russian MiG-29 it is claimed to 70-80% as capable as American F-16.
The aircraft will also be fitted with an in-flight refueling probe and a deck arrester hook. This increase its sticking range far beyond 3,000km. According to some credible Chinese sources it might be fitted with fire control radar, for the export version include state of the art GEC-Marconi Blue Hawk, Thomson-CSF RDY, Phanzotron Kapyo and Fiar Grifo S7. In addition to that it will include a 25° field of view HUD, two multi-functional displays and INS/GPS ( Global Positioning System).
Weapon Systems:
Super Seven is designed to be fitted with vast array of weaponry. Weapon load includes short and medium range AAMs (Anti-Air Missiles) like AIM-9P/PL-9/Magic 2 and PL-11/Aspide/AIM-7E etc. In addition to that it includes new FBW system and a true BVR attack capability, which will allow Pakistan Air Force to have a major strategic upper hand over Indian Air Force.
Additional Information:
Work on Super Seven is underway and it is all set to fly by June 2003.Full scale mockups were also constructed earlier in 2001. Pakistan Air Force has already shown its interest in its initial first order of 150 planes. Its looking to full-fill its 60-70% needs in future with this plane. At the same time Chinese Air Force is initially interested in ordering up to 200 of these planes.
Once the work is completed on this deadly plane, it will create a new dimension in air combat standards. It would allow Pakistan to not only build this plane with its own recourses within the country but opens a huge export market. In addition to this further changing the balance of Air Power in Pakistan favor.
Manticore
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Thats what indians try to do as they stop the evolution at super7 and dont consider prototype 04 at which time the requirements of paf increased from a mere mig21 upgradation
If you show f20 and mig21 without discussing the changes of 04, indian will equate your jf17 to a 3rd gen fighter both technically & conceptually .. and then trolling will start
Consider jf17 a 70s era design with 2000 era technology
Sherlock Holmes
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JF-17 has requirements of F-16 not mig 21. But it started as mig 21 upgrade and later went to match F-16 leaving behind mig 21.
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Manticore
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LIGHT FIGHTERS -- Global Need, Options, Unbiased broad comparisons
this might be an interesting read for you
this might be an interesting read for you
Manticore
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the actual dimensions including the nose cone size of jf-17 are more closer to the f16 which means that the evolution of jf17 has good prospects granted it gets a better thrust engine
Specifications of JF-17 blk1 based on Dubai Airshow 2011
jf-17 shouldnt be compared to failed f20 rather should be compared with gripen and early f16 blocks
The F-20 did, however, have several problems inherent to its small size. The low-mounted wing meant that there was limited ground clearance, and the position of the landing gear meant loads had to be positioned towards the outer ends of the wings. This limited hard point weights to 1,000 lb (454 kg) or less.[31] A single hard point under the fuselage could carry more, a singleMk 84 2,000 lbs bomb or up to five Mk 82 500 lbs bombs.[31] Additionally, although the wing profiling improved lift at higher angles of attack (AoA) while maneuvering, it did not improve cruise lift performance at normal AoA. This did not present a problem in the fighter role, but did severely reduce its payload/range figures compared to similar aircraft like the F-16
[/QUOTE]
No buyers
No blocks, only prototypes
No vulcan cannon
2 prototypes crashed
Manticore
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Its okay, the response to your post clears some aspects.
You are free to post jf17 evolution info/pics here if they have not been posted already
If during a discussion you feel the need of posting this info again, just refer the other member to this thread - this will save time and energy
Thorough Pro
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True that, why do we Pakistanis give shit to what Indians say about it? we should totally ignore them and their biased uninformed opinion and most importantly NOT divulge any important info
tarrar
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@Manticore That's a real job you have done here. I have a question regarding JF17, how good is JF17? how good is JF17 in air maneuvering? like modern fighters which are superb in Air maneuvering, is JF17 coming close to those air crafts?
JF17 is an achievement for Pakistan & china & a way forward for PAF, we are expecting to see maybe new fighter jets made by both China & Pakistan in future. I always feel proud whenever I see or read about JF17, but there are also questions which are unanswered & many Pakistanis don't know, how good is JF17?
JF17 is an achievement for Pakistan & china & a way forward for PAF, we are expecting to see maybe new fighter jets made by both China & Pakistan in future. I always feel proud whenever I see or read about JF17, but there are also questions which are unanswered & many Pakistanis don't know, how good is JF17?
Manticore
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The flying characteristics might be close to f16/f18
AoA is same as gripen
However avionics / countermeasures and missiles is where the difference might be created
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According European commentator in Dubai Air show 2013, I hear him saying "PAF said they don't need a two seat version of JF17.......".
The flying characteristics might be close to f16/f18
AoA is same as gripen
Possible but so far I have not seen JF17 doing anything close to F/A 18, like sharp pull up & extreme air maneuvering. You can check the maneuvering of F/A 18 on youtube. I have been watching many videos in the past few days mainly of F22, F/A 18, SU 30 MKI & Eurofighter, they were outstanding in Air maneuvering, but F16 has beaten Eurofighter in dog fight.
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