JF-17 Thunder's Armament

[war&peace]

thunder was 50-50% project and the block was completely produced on loans agreement with Chinese govt.
do you think we would have been able to devlop or even deploy anything
thunder is a unique blessing for PAF or otherwise you would have seen an airforce with less than 100 in 2020

I am just sharing an info that is unknown to most people. It tells about the capability of Pakistani engineers and scientists. If proper funding and environment is provided, a lot more can be accomplished. I'm happy for JF-17 but it does not address the needs of PAF and that is why there is a constant discussion about acquiring other aircrafts including F-16, J-10s, J-11, Su-35 etc etc as stop gap solutions before a true 5th gen aircraft can be acquired...Furthermore China, Turkey, even Russia and other friendly nations could have been invited to join the program at certain phase. and by this time we would have perhaps finished flight testing on first prototype. While JF-17 could run in parallel as a lightweight aircraft or we could acquire other aircrafts as a stop gap solution.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Now we SHOULD do same with JF17. The basic structure/idea is there, we can build a somewhat new plane around that to address our 4/4.5 gen needs. Considering the generation thing may not be that clear a definition so to explain, we can/should a slightly bigger plane based on the JF17 Blk II/III. Power it with a new engine with more thrust as the plan is, increase the wing loading capacity to increase hard points to 9 or may be even 10 with the 10th under the cockpit for mission POD. Get upgraded avionics (not essentially western, we can benefit from lessons/experience the Chinese acquired developing a number of planes like J10B/C, J11B, J16 or even J31. Get IRST and FLIR along with retractable probe for IFR. A more powerful radar from J10B/C or even maybe from J31 project. If we are to go for J31 at some later stage (which it looks very likely) then maybe we can get our hands on to some of its systems for our, lets say, JF-18 or JF17 NG or whatever.

This is all speculation, wish full thinking and cannot be backed by any source as I am not claiming all this as FACTS. Still I do think that this is be a great approach and will address our medium combat aircraft needs for years to come.

Sir,

JF-17 can be developed till Block 4, after that it would be of no use once stealth aircraft are available. The issue with Stealth aircraft is they are mostly twin engined except for F-35 which would not be offered to PAF in the current situation.

Some time back when PM. Nawaz Sharif visited China it was rumoured that an understanding on the development of JF-17 Stealth aircraft has taken place, if this is true then there might be a possibility that this aircraft would continue to remain in production for long.

Issue with engine power still remains the main cause of concern. Till a more powerful and economical engine is available till that point it would be very difficult to increased the payload.

With the F-16's issue PAF must decide if they are willing to increase the payload of JF-17 by increasing its size or invest in some thing totally new.

JF-17 were to replace delta wing aircraft of second and third generation which offered a similar payload, however the forth generation delta wing aircraft carry a payload that is far superior to the JF-17's.

Procurement of new type require cash which is a problem. However once IMF loans are paid off and some projects of CPEC come online or Pakistan decides to join the Arabs this would no longer be a problem.

We all know that Gripen had offered India their C version which was short down by procuring Rafales and Tejas. If PAF can look into the Gripen E with EJ-200 / 220 engines then it might be able to kill two birds with one arrow. JF-17 would get the engines and the avionic and armament package along along with an appropriate top cover option.

When time comes PAF would be able to procure Stealth platforms like the J-31 or the TFX.

 

[Tempest II]

I certainly hope so

But thing is, if you check the point where the bombs actually exploded and then cross reference it with the picture before explosion, you can see that there is NOTHING at the area where the bombs actually hit. In short, I do not see any other thing that can be called as target but that yellow marker that we missed by a mile.
Cannot be sure anyway and also, a consolation, those were not any guided munitions


The usually carry one 2000er on the center -line station. These are two bombs. Still, if you look at the size and use the fuel tank on the place as a reference marker, the surely look bigger then the 500 lb bombs that they carry under wings normally. Cant say with certainty but since these are two bombs, i will go with 500 lb as the size reference in a picture is dependent on a number of variables.

EDIT: Oh and good to know you are still with us @Tempest II



yesss,,,, why didn't i though of that

@Arsalan, I am still around - just family demands mean I have less time to contribute.

My thinking is the target is marked/painted on the ground like this - more or less.

I also view the situation as follows:

 

[Tempest II]

Pixel counting:
146.95 pixels for the 14700mm length if the fighter.

The bombs are 38.99 pixels long and 5.82 pixels wide. this will give approximately 32217mm long and 582mm dia bombs.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

The utility of the 4th and 4.5 gen aircraft won't go away for a long time---maybe 34-40 years from now. They will compliment the 5th gen aircraft for years to come in one form or the other---

 

[Arsalan]

Sir,

JF-17 can be developed till Block 4, after that it would be of no use once stealth aircraft are available. The issue with Stealth aircraft is they are mostly twin engined except for F-35 which would not be offered to PAF in the current situation.

Some time back when PM. Nawaz Sharif visited China it was rumoured that an understanding on the development of JF-17 Stealth aircraft has taken place, if this is true then there might be a possibility that this aircraft would continue to remain in production for long.

Issue with engine power still remains the main cause of concern. Till a more powerful and economical engine is available till that point it would be very difficult to increased the payload.

With the F-16's issue PAF must decide if they are willing to increase the payload of JF-17 by increasing its size or invest in some thing totally new.

JF-17 were to replace delta wing aircraft of second and third generation which offered a similar payload, however the forth generation delta wing aircraft carry a payload that is far superior to the JF-17's.

Procurement of new type require cash which is a problem. However once IMF loans are paid off and some projects of CPEC come online or Pakistan decides to join the Arabs this would no longer be a problem.

We all know that Gripen had offered India their C version which was short down by procuring Rafales and Tejas. If PAF can look into the Gripen E with EJ-200 / 220 engines then it might be able to kill two birds with one arrow. JF-17 would get the engines and the avionic and armament package along along with an appropriate top cover option.

When time comes PAF would be able to procure Stealth platforms like the J-31 or the TFX.

I would have replied in details but then came across @MastanKhan post:

Hi,

The utility of the 4th and 4.5 gen aircraft won't go away for a long time---maybe 34-40 years from now. They will compliment the 5th gen aircraft for years to come in one form or the other---

This sums it up. I hope you will understand. Take a look at USAF model and that will help you understand how things may be in years to come.

 

[MastanKhan]

I would have replied in details but then came across @MastanKhan post:


This sums it up. I hope you will understand. Take a look at USAF model and that will help you understand how things may be in years to come.

Hi,

Thank you for your post---. Even though some of us have written about this scenario in detail---and one of our TT member had posted a video of F22 and its escort aircraft---and then there was another video of an F35 somewhere---.

And then there was news about the new upgraded version of the B52 bomber---and information posted about how its utility be used by the stealth aircraft.

The 5th gen aircraft can go deep into enemy space or real close to it than a conventional aircraft. And thru Data link---it can take over the control of a support aircrafts weapons load and then launch them at the target---and the enemy keeps wondering from where the weapon came---and who launched it---because the support aircraft is at standoff distances---it has not turned its radar on to make a target lock.

So---basically for a country like pakistan---that faces a much larger enemy---the utility of the 5th gen aircraft will be best used with the compliments of the 4th / 4.5 gen aircraft.

 

[randomradio]

So---basically for a country like pakistan---that faces a much larger enemy---the utility of the 5th gen aircraft will be best used with the compliments of the 4th / 4.5 gen aircraft.

Actually a full 5th gen fleet is better than a mixed fleet.

 

[Imran Khan]

Actually a full 5th gen fleet is better than a mixed fleet.

it will be in future but right now 4th gen is reality and 5th is just future sir

 

[khanasifm]

Even f7s can carry lgb but they need buddy lasing till recently Mirage 2000 with ldp were doing it for Rafael in Libya campaign and in 1990s mirage

2000 needed Mirage F1 , Iraq campaign

 

[Arsalan]

Actually a full 5th gen fleet is better than a mixed fleet.

Some alien tech will be even better,,
BUT
We are talking about what is "practical" and serves the purpose.

I am just sharing an info that is unknown to most people. It tells about the capability of Pakistani engineers and scientists. If proper funding and environment is provided, a lot more can be accomplished. I'm happy for JF-17 but it does not address the needs of PAF and that is why there is a constant discussion about acquiring other aircrafts including F-16, J-10s, J-11, Su-35 etc etc as stop gap solutions before a true 5th gen aircraft can be acquired...Furthermore China, Turkey, even Russia and other friendly nations could have been invited to join the program at certain phase. and by this time we would have perhaps finished flight testing on first prototype. While JF-17 could run in parallel as a lightweight aircraft or we could acquire other aircrafts as a stop gap solution.

The JF17 project had one main/primary goal that we cannot ignore. That was to provide PAF with a home grown reliable plane that was BVR capable and a low prices replacement for our F7, A5 and mirages. That is what the plane offers right now as well. As the plane evolves we will see it closing that gap for which we currently look towards the F16 or J10 options. The initial 150 planes will come to address the initial primary objective of the project with option of number going to 250, gradually closing that gap. From there, we can move on as the situation demands.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

The issue here is of the widening gap----. Where the JF17 is today---it was supposed to be ahead of it 5 + years ago.

Now we are looking at the JF17 BLK 3---in 2017 prbably later part---and then we would be looking at the integration of that aircraft with aesa and irst etc etc etc---so another 4---5 years time frame---so with every step forward---we are going two steps backwards.

The problem over here is that many posters don't understand---that to keep your present position and hold it strong---you need to keep moving forward and moving forward means that you have to diversify the source of procuring the aircraft---.

The JF17's cannot be produced in large numbers----F16's have issues---there is a major shortage of F16's in our stock---the life cycle of the mirages and the F7's cannot be increased----.

So---other aircraft have to be purchased to fill in the hole---by filling in the hole---you will be able to maintain the status quo and keep somewhat the same level of progress that you were expecting for your fleet.

 

[war&peace]

The JF17 project had one main/primary goal that we cannot ignore. That was to provide PAF with a home grown reliable plane that was BVR capable and a low prices replacement for our F7, A5 and mirages. That is what the plane offers right now as well. As the plane evolves we will see it closing that gap for which we currently look towards the F16 or J10 options. The initial 150 planes will come to address the initial primary objective of the project with option of number going to 250, gradually closing that gap. From there, we can move on as the situation demands.

JF-17 is still behind older airplanes like F-16, Mirage 2000s. Though I think it is a positive thing but still JF-17 fails to address the needs of PAF and we would be not so keen on getting whatever the number of F-16. I am sure JF-17 will become better and I hope for that but there is a limit....with essentially the same airframe there is a limit to what you can achieve....you can new avionics, radars, EW/ECM, BVRs etc but you can't increase for example ferry range or payload capacity, number of hardpoints etc...The moment you change the airframe in size, it is essentially a new aircraft and not a block update. We still need a genuinely Pakistan designed airborne platform with stealth features (a pretty much airframe design characteristic (shapes and materials) along with paints and electronics). JF-17 blocks are aimed at making reducing the gaps with existing airplanes like F-16.....so block 4 would be either similar or somewhat better than F-16....but what about all those Rafales, Su 30 MKIs, Eurofighters and Grippen Es etc. I do not downplay JF-17 and I know it is a great achievement and has an export potential and can do a lot of tasks with excellence but just within its flight envelope. If we need to expand the flight envelope, we need a different airframe, a different engine....a totally new airplane....I hope I answered your comment.

 

[JamD]

The JF-17 has done tests for a locally produced GPS guided glide bomb kit (mk83). I have seen pictures of this myself which I can't share because of security reasons. Once the product is officially announced I will do so. It was definitely NOT the LS-6 as the LS-6 has its foldable wings on the top and this kit had them on the bottom and also the rear end was much different.

I don't understand why we don't capitalize on things like these to market the JF-17 better.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/jf-17-thunder-multirole-fighter-thread-7.427560/page-13#ixzz49IRIH1R6

 

[khanasifm]

GPS guided Vs. Laser Guided