JF-17 vs Tejas at Dubai Airshow

[ozranger]

Tejas

JF-17

What are the aerodynamical differences you can notice between their demo flights?

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

Myanmar is not satisfied with the product it has received for instance.

Nigeria got it directly from us and they seem to be satisfied.
Moreover , news about Myanmar JF 17s malfunction seem to be over exaggerated.

 

[MastanKhan]

I wanted to see the Block3 fly. It would've been interesting how its FBW behaves as opposed to the older Jeffs.

Hi,

It would be stupid to show off BLK3 full capabilities in just a fly by demo.

The F-22 never showed it---the F-35 never showed it till over a decade into service and still not the full capability---.

 

[Ali_Baba]

This is why the JF-17 needs the WS-19 engine once it’s available, a 42-44% increase in thrust will let the plane perform to the full possibility of its flight envelope. The JF-17 won’t be underpowered then. It will have nearly the same amount of thrust as the PAF’s F-16s!

The JF-17 with its current engine is akin for the F-16/79 (both planes have similar empty weight and similar thrust), but with the WS-19 it will make the JF-17 equal on many levels with a standard F-16.

As of this year, it is accepted that the WS-19 engine is ready but it will be time until it goes into mass production. After meeting the demand for the J-35 project, sparing a few engines to develop a JF-17 model with this engine will take some time. So perhaps we will see a JF-17D by the end of the decade. If the plane needs to be redesigned to fit the engine, perhaps the plane will get more enhancements to maximize the use of the new engine; especially in EW but also in being able to do heavier strike role as well as ability to supercruise in the way the Gripen can supercruise with its F414 engine.

China Seeks Superalloys, Supply Chain Boost For Military Engines | Aviation Week Network

China's WS-10 and WS-15 turbofan engines are now in serial production following the finalization of material verifications.

aviationweek.com

Rattibha

en.rattibha.com

F-16.net - The ultimate F-16, F-35 and F-22 reference

www.f-16.net

View attachment 1029027

Any indication how the JF-17 compares to the following specs from the F-16/79?:

The JF17 will need to be re-engined at the midlife of its service life(2,000hrs) and it would only make sense to switch to the WS-series if the engine is the WS-19 is selected given the cost of changing engine types with testing/re-qualification. The WS-13 makes no sense, and it would be better if only the WS-13 is an option, to simply stay on the RD-93 series instead going for the RD-93MA instead.

 

[Ali_Baba]

I do not find Tejas impressive either. It is surprising to see a country that have a capable space program to settle for a lemon like Tejas. Indians are a strange bunch. Surprisingly good in some areas and lacking in vision in other areas.

What i find weird, and illogical is that Egypt is seriously thinking of getting the Tejas ?! Go - and figure that one out.

 

[FuturePAF]

China offered WS-13 for JF-17 but Pakistan chose RD-93.

China is building WS-19 for J-35.


Pakistan have invested heavily in the JF-17 program and introduced new variants from time to time. These jets are more likely to be used in defensive capacity in our case (less stress). This works for us because WE have larger medium-weight class jets to use in demanding situations.

Some countries want to use jet fighters heavily in a conflict situation (more stress) so not sure if JF-17 can work as a mainstay for some countries. Myanmar is not satisfied with the product it has received for instance.

I do not find Tejas impressive either. It is surprising to see a country that have a capable space program to settle for a lemon like Tejas. Indians are a strange bunch. Surprisingly good in some areas and lacking in vision in other areas.

From what I understand the WS-13 wasn’t much of a performance improvement over the RD-93, and even had a shorter engine life; time between overhauls, etc.

Just like the F-404 was used on the F/A-18 Hornet, but was subsequently used on the Gripen, the WS-19 should be sought, IMHO, to improve the performance (more energy to be able to do a two cycle fight, imparting more energy to the missiles it is firing, perhaps even using the higher thrust to have Thrust vectoring? To deal with the high instantaneous turn potential of some Indian fighters) of the large fleet of JF-17 as part of a future midlife upgrade for the planes. No guarantee China will approve the sale, but if Pakistan can line up export orders (which also improve China’s defense ties to more countries), or a guaranteed large order from the PAF, it just might be the right mix of a cost efficient fighter and competitive performance.

For the PAF, It will be more cost effective than buying more J-10s (especially considering our financial limitations) and should be a potentially quicker adoption. Better TWR should allow the plane to perform to its full potential.

For China it would mean a more capable PAF to keep the regional balance with India in check.

P.s. as Russia tries to regain international sale of its arms, it may prevent Pakistan from selling the JF-17 with the RD-93 to other countries, similar to how the f-404/414 could be blocked if India tries to sell the arenas in competition with an American aircraft.

 

[LeGenD]

PAF has invested heavily in rd 93 n is very satisfied with the end product..... plus the cost to benefit ratio for switching to ws 13 at the moment is not much...so for the moment PAF does not feel the urge to switch

Thats bs is spread by indian sources n nothing wrong with the fc1 that Myanmar recieved .

Plus the Myanmar variant is the Chinese fc 1 n not Pakistani jf 17....they deal directly with catic n not Pakistan.

The Nigerian variant is the jf 17 n
Have not heard of any problems since induction.

Pakistan should seek a better engine in my view. Russian engines have low MBTF rating and greater serviceability requirements due to this factor. When possible, of-course.

Myanmar disclosed the problem, Indians milked the news (not surprised). Pakistan dispatched its engineers to inspect Myanmar jets to sort out their problems. One can hope that valuable lessons were learned from this experience.

No complaint from Nigeria (true), but Nigeria has ordered European jets:

NAF orders 24 Italian aircraft to replace ageing fighter jets

The Nigerian Air Force has struck a deal with an Italian defence company for the supply of 24 M-346 master aircraft.

punchng.com

Sofema to modernize Nigeria’s venerable Alpha jets

Sofema, a renowned French company that specializes in the reconditioning of military equipment, is currently undertaking a comprehensive study to

www.military.africa

Nigeria rejected Tejas also.

Both Pakistan and India are into making tall claims for domestic consumption, buddy. There is absolute lack of transparency and culture for asking tough questions. Because if you (generally speaking) ask them, you risk being taken to an unknown place for software update . A number of Asian societies are less open to discussing sensitive issues. Russia and North Korea take the cake though.

 

[FuturePAF]

Pakistan should seek a better engine in my view. Russian engines have low MBTF rating and greater serviceability requirements due to this factor. When possible, of-course.

Myanmar disclosed the problem, Indians milked the news (not surprised). Pakistan dispatched its engineers to inspect Myanmar jets to sort out their problems. One can hope that valuable lessons were learned from this experience.

No complaint from Nigeria (true), but Nigeria has ordered European jets:

NAF orders 24 Italian aircraft to replace ageing fighter jets

The Nigerian Air Force has struck a deal with an Italian defence company for the supply of 24 M-346 master aircraft.

punchng.com

Sofema to modernize Nigeria’s venerable Alpha jets

Sofema, a renowned French company that specializes in the reconditioning of military equipment, is currently undertaking a comprehensive study to

www.military.africa

Nigeria rejected Tejas also.

Both Pakistan and India are into making tall claims for domestic consumption, buddy. There is absolute lack of transparency and culture for asking tough questions. Because if you (generally speaking) ask them, you risk being taken to an unknown place for software update . A number of Asian societies are less open to discussing sensitive issues. Russia and North Korea take the cake though.

Future JF-17 sales maybe limited by the Russian engine potentially being cut off or at the very least having serviceability problems now that Russia is having logistics problems, due to the war.

Better to transition to the WS-19, for better serviceability, reliability of supply and performance.

 

[Bilal.]

Myanmar disclosed the problem, Indians milked the news (not surprised). Pakistan dispatched its engineers to inspect Myanmar jets to sort out their problems. One can hope that valuable lessons were learned from this experience.

Irrawaddy is an anti regime publication. Not a reliable source.

 

[python-000]

 

[White and Green with M/S]

View attachment 1029572

ALREADY POSTED BROTHER

 

[Reichmarshal]

Pakistan should seek a better engine in my view. Russian engines have low MBTF rating and greater serviceability requirements due to this factor. When possible, of-course.

AgaIN Presently the Chinese engine in comparison to the russian engine...does not give that big a bang for the buck to make the switch

Myanmar disclosed the problem, Indians milked the news (not surprised). Pakistan dispatched its engineers to inspect Myanmar jets to sort out their problems. One can hope that valuable lessons were learned from this experience.

Again they deal with catic directly n hence if any prob with the ac...will be addressed by catic n not PAF....so the news is not true

No complaint from Nigeria (true), but Nigeria has ordered European jets:

If PAF had the choice they would order western jets as well....no big deal their.

NAF orders 24 Italian aircraft to replace ageing fighter jets

The Nigerian Air Force has struck a deal with an Italian defence company for the supply of 24 M-346 master aircraft.

punchng.com

Sofema to modernize Nigeria’s venerable Alpha jets

Sofema, a renowned French company that specializes in the reconditioning of military equipment, is currently undertaking a comprehensive study to

www.military.africa

Nigeria rejected Tejas also.

Both Pakistan and India are into making tall claims for domestic consumption, buddy. There is absolute lack of transparency and culture for asking tough questions. Because if you (generally speaking) ask them, you risk being taken to an unknown place for software update . A number of Asian societies are less open to discussing sensitive issues. Russia and North Korea take the cake though.

Pakistan unlike India only brings any thing to light once the product has matured n all parameters have been met .....while on the other side of the border ndia which is in the habit of exhibiting products where the eggs are yet to hatch.

So in our case how can u question about somthing u don't know about its existence.

 

[CriticalThought]

I mean take a look at this refuelling attachment. It is sitting right in the pilot’s face:

But what is truly ridiculous is the Indian boast of using a high percentage of composites in the fuselage to decrease the radar cross-section. With this arachnid leg sticking out at the front, you might as well put a ‘Please find me right here’ sign on it.

But it doesn’t stop there. The placement is a clear indication that aerial refuelling was not thought through in the initial design. This is a hack that has been tacked on to the aircraft as an after-thought. And if that is not the case, and this is how the designers envisaged the aircraft from the beginning, then Pakistan has nothing to fear from any indigenous design effort by India.

 

[buntalanlucu]

I think everyone in aerospace knew that india tejas are not even operating in sufficient numbers and they also knew the quality of indian maintenance / support is abysmall

while PAF JF17 in airshows are real world operating jets and not just molly coddled hangar queen as opposed as indian tejas 'demonstrator' who are in airshow just for the purpose of airshows and not used in any capacity by any nation.

the world knows the difference , after all JF17 was involved in PAF ambush during balakot shooting down mig21 and damaging prized SU30MKI and driving away the jammed Mirage 2K. Of course PAF pilots are better trained than IAF pilots and their jets are far better maintained

 

[PradoTLC]

JF program was indeed a well planned and managed program. The approach adopted by PAF to go for incremental updates in a situation when no other option was available, worked very well.

IAF, on the other hand couldn’t have the same approach because, HAL isn’t under them and once a product is accepted by the IAF, HAL had proven to be an unreliable supplier. Hence, IAF insisted on a fully developed product. It caused all the delays, which we all know about.

Tejas being inducted now is fully completed and meets the IAF requirements. It is matched with JF block 3 in almost all criteria available in public domain. Both jets have one odd feature better than the other.

If someone wants to get in trolling, then there is no end to arguing and calling names, but, it is a well put together machine and should hold its own against a similar class aircraft.
It’s modular architecture and many Indian homegrown technologies would allow it to be brought up to latest standards as time passes.

It is a case of delayed work but a work done well in the end.

I think it is more to due to the idiotic approach of the Indians .. they could have settled for a complete TOT of the mirage 2000 series which would have been better thing

Pakistan has nothing to fear from any indigenous design effort by India.

It knows that .. why do you think it was absent on 27 Feb 2019

 

[VkdIndian]

they could have settled for a complete TOT of the mirage 2000 series which would have been better thing

Nobody gives complete TOT. No one gives complete know how of all whys and hows.

Indian approach was perfect in planning but bad in execution. That caused all the issues. Luckily there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Most members from Paksiatn don’t do a healthy discussion and get down to trolling.

But, we know that Tejas in current iteration is a worthy fighter.